Babalons' cup
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"I don't know about anyone else, but if I become an Adept in this life and have a choice, I'm coming back for another round."
Agreed.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"I you could come back with all your memories intact from this life... would you?"
Thinking about that question brought me to tears.
No, I don't think I would.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"
I'm sorry. That's a difficult question for everyone."It's okay, I'm trying to find and embrace the beauty of this sorrow, but for now I at least have a semblance of peace with it.
With this incarnation, I made the mistake of asking, "Why?".
Naturally, the response I got from the Universe was, "Because".
Then, silence.
Now I know the secret: don't ask, just do.
But, lo! I already asked.. What's left to do?That is why I would start again with no memory, and hopefully I'd keep my mouth shut the second time around.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"
Do you recall a time when you were very small - before you could speak?
How did you think, before you could ask questions?"There I go, crying again...
I was afraid. My parents were off at work most of the time when I was that young, and my brother(seven years my senior) would torment me relentlessly for naught but the entertainment found in watching me hopelessly squirm against his mischief, so I was constantly afraid that Big Brother would come again and take control. My first waking memory is being locked in a toy chest for hours while my brother and cousin would shove batteries into the keyhole every time I tried to look out..
All the while, it was a really sensitive kid in there.
Where it was just silly fun for them, for me it was ruining my ability to trust the people closest to me.
It took 18 years for me to be able to look back and realize I've been living under that cloud my whole youth, and it did nothing to change the fact that I missed the whole ride because of it. I ran away and hid in my head, losing the only chance I had to be a free child and play with the others, like we're all supposed to.
I took it all too seriously and grew up too quickly.
But I'm ranting about things said and done.. Why do you ask? -
As a teen, when I was able to do things on my own, I spent a lot of time going to the library and reading books about witchcraft, secret societies, sex, poetry and loads of divination stuff. When I found these books, way back in the early 80s I felt as if I had found a niche that I could relate to. I certainly didnt relate to the people I was related too. My family was filled with societial black sheep, except for me so it seemed, little miss sunshine. In a very real way, As a child I felt ashamed that I was related to these people.
Now, years later when I look again at my family, espicially my extended ancestoral family, it seems as if certain members of my family had been actively doing what I hear called the Great Work. I dont think it is a coinicidence that that my mother raised three girls who turned to different aspects of self mastery,, or that my adopted cousin wrote a book that details rituals I have read in grimores, that he said he just made up.
I dont think that many people could be born remembering their past lives. I do think we all have to choice to work at remembering. if every single person was born remembering everysingle life, I think our social dynamic would break down and we would not be able to function with each other. If I am in line at yhe grociery and the check out lady used to be my mom, that could be weird when I then relaize she also used to be my dad.
I think that the concept of Bablons Cup, and the gathering of blood of a family line is behind some peoples motives for genocide, and infantcide to a lesser degree. Some people would like to anilliate whole tribes, whole races, who species infact, and I geuninely believe that the energy dynamic of Gaia, changes when species are eliminated.
I dont have enough expierence or expertise understanding Crowleys crypt style, but I am working it.
Our species is progressively getting smarter, and I hold that at some time we may reach a breaking point, of sorts, as a species and that we would be able to create.....our own planet is a pretty good symbol.....
But when I entertain the though that I could make purple fluffy bunnies with wings, and whales who spoke Zeussology....that I could change any of the things I am sencing here with Her, I would want to be any where but here, with Her Tigers, and worms, and gold, and men....
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@Dar es Allarah said
"
@Duo Columpnas said
"
@Dar es Allarah said
"
I'm sorry. That's a difficult question for everyone."It's okay, I'm trying to find and embrace the beauty of this sorrow, but for now I at least have a semblance of peace with it.
With this incarnation, I made the mistake of asking, "Why?".
Naturally, the response I got from the Universe was, "Because".
Then, silence.
Now I know the secret: don't ask, just do.
But, lo! I already asked.. What's left to do?"There's more to it...
Do you recall a time when you were very small - before you could speak?
How did you think, before you could ask questions?"I have quite a few memories of before I could speak,
Thats weird because I never thought of those memories, in regards to your second question.... -
@Dar es Allarah said
"@ Veronica
Let's split this up a little...
"16. And the Angel sayeth: Blessed are the saints, that their blood is mingled in the cup, and can never be separate any more."
What do you think the blood of the saints is?
Hadit, Vital creative essenceWhat is the cup wherein their blood is mingled?
Nuit The Holy Grail
And why can it never be separated any more?
I dont do well with the ultimatium NEVER. But I will gander that because it has transumted into something different..HorusLastly - how does this make the saints 'blessed'. (Presumably they were not blessed or saints afore mingling their blood in the cup?)
Because they contributed, served a purpose, and did their Work?
[Added]Second lastly - Nietzsche is a Thelemic saint and never had any children. Other saints do have children."
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Leaning out of the window, unasked ...
@Dar es Allarah said
"What do you think the blood of the saints is?"
Their consciousness.
@Dar es Allarah said
"What is the cup wherein their blood is mingled?"
The sahasrara chakra, also called the holy grail.
@Dar es Allarah said
"And why can it never be separated any more?"
As consciousness is as foundational to the multiverse as outside reality is, single minds are akin to particles. But due to that, this is not the whole story, and there is a cosmic consciousness, perhaps one could say in more modern terms, a universal hive-mind of which we are only sparks. The quite high version of samadhi implied in the mingling of minds in the sahasrara (blood in the cup) leads to a beginning of awareness of this ultimate consciousness we all share to an extent, and this consciousness of the hive can no more be suppressed due to the nature of the experience.
My assumption is that the whole topic is relevant to people on the road to transcend the A.A. step of 7°=4° and beyond, and not to family bloodlines etc. at all.
I felt compelled to write something because superficial interpretations of mystical terminologies like these have lead to some of the really paranoid allegations against occultists in general. Sorry should I have intruded on something unintentionally.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"
It wasn't to unwittingly awaken bad memories... the reverse. Although bad memories tend to be more vivid. If I were going to rephrase it I'd ask if you had a happy memory of that time - where you felt safe. But I think maybe you need to be kind to yourself right now... maybe have a cup of tea and some biscuits (just in case you'e got low blood sugar) - have a bath - do whatever feels nice - distracting - and put this on the back burner until you feel better. hugs"I'm sorry for lashing out. It's a wasteful habit to vocalize such negativity; shouldn't it be my work to erase those moments' effects on me and move forward speaking the positive lessons of those experiences? All I've done the past two hours is sit and wallow in this shit.
When I was a very very young child, whenever someone in the house would set off a music box, like the sort people have around during Christmas season, I would immediately tear up and burst. Like clockwork. Aunts and uncles would do it over and over throughout the day just to see if I'd keep crying, and I would. They got a kick out of it. It seems I got used to it being that my negative emotions were what people wanted to see out of me, after seeing everyone laughing and smiling whenever I'd cry. This got me in the habit of expressing the negative to get the positive.
Bad habit.Good memories of my youth are those with my friends, whom I love fiercely, even if my over-sensitivity gets in the way of those interactions too.
I'll now leave the post back to the original topic...
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@Iamus said
"What was the source of this? The second half reminds me of the weirder aspects of Mormon doctrine in a way...
It sounds pretty rigid compared to anything I can think of Crowley saying. I'm reminded of the last Collect in XV (which of course was adapted from the ...granted the accomplishment of their wills; yea, the accomplishment of their wills."
It was an internet site that I came across looking up something else. That quoted paragraph seemed to ring a bell with some other things I have been working on lately.
I am not familiar with the material you shared, but that message makes no mention of children and how that poses a challenge to the accomplishment of the Great Work.
Thanks.
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@Veronica said
"
@Iamus said
"What was the source of this? The second half reminds me of the weirder aspects of Mormon doctrine in a way...It sounds pretty rigid compared to anything I can think of Crowley saying. I'm reminded of the last Collect in XV (which of course was adapted from the ...granted the accomplishment of their wills; yea, the accomplishment of their wills."
It was an internet site that I came across looking up something else. That quoted paragraph seemed to ring a bell with some other things I have been working on lately.
I am not familiar with the material you shared, but that message makes no mention of children and how that poses a challenge to the accomplishment of the Great Work.
Thanks."
You are not familiar with the Gnostic Mass and the list of Thelemic Saints? James here has his own Thelemic Mass (derived from the same) and uses most of the Thelemic Saints of the Gnostic Mass and adds some others. The Mass (both versions) do involve children and the histories of the saints themselves is factual, so no need to mention other than their names to know the answer to certain questions.
Me personally, I never imagined there was an "end" to the Great Work. The Great Work is the total evolution of life.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"
@Veronica said
"I think that the concept of Bablons Cup, and the gathering of blood of a family line is behind some peoples motives for genocide, and infantcide to a lesser degree. Some people would like to anilliate whole tribes, whole races, who species infact, and I geuninely believe that the energy dynamic of Gaia, changes when species are eliminated."I think there's been some confusion here. Although the cup of Babalon is synonymous with the holy grail, this is not to say that the recent theories about the descendants of Jesus Christ as written about in popular literature such as 'the Hold Blood and the Holy Grail' has anything to do with the symbolism that Crowley was employing.
I enjoy a good conspiracy theory... but to get the most out of Crowley's work it would be best if you separated the two things in your mind."I actually wasnt even thinking at all about the JC aspect of the Grail, to me that is more like just the pretty candied flowers on a cake., so I get what you are saying about ACs symbolism and what is being promoted as the meaning of the Holy Grail.
I actually dont enjoy conspiracy theories and seem to be able to see right through them for the most part. Unfortunately AC name gets linked to much hoopla and disinformation, but I think that the fact that conspiracy theories push our limits of imagination and tear down illusions, they serve a purpose much like how AC push limits and tore down illusions and had a great purpose in his great mind.
I dont think that the first quoted paragragh is rubish. Now maybe my pituary is plugged, or I have these happy blinders on, or What ever my case may be, But it sounds like it is truth, based upon my limited understanding of the philosophies.
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@Takamba said
"
You are not familiar with the Gnostic Mass and the list of Thelemic Saints? James here has his own Thelemic Mass (derived from the same) and uses most of the Thelemic Saints of the Gnostic Mass and adds some others. The Mass (both versions) do involve children and the histories of the saints themselves is factual, so no need to mention other than their names to know the answer to certain questions.Me personally, I never imagined there was an "end" to the Great Work. The Great Work is the total evolution of life."
No Im not really.
Read it once or twice, never saw one IRL Ive never even been to any Mass.
Ive never had an interest in familiarizing myself with Saints, I like flesh and blood people....
It seems as if no order or fraternity will have anything to do with me, probably cause I am something offensive or risky. IDK.
I dont mean to be thick, but I dont understand what you are actually saying ...so no need....I never imagined and end either, but it would seem to me that at some point the sun will die and earth will too, so what we call this ending....is just an ending to what can be expierenced here.
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Thats quite ok, I asked hoping for input... So thank you, I know exactly what you are getting at, and I agree.
While I may come across shallow at times, I assure you I am not superficial, and do not intend on feeding on disinformation, and modeling fear driven behaviors. My query was from real befuddelment and an attempt to gain clarity for my self on what I believe is true.
@Simon Iff said
"Leaning out of the window, unasked ...
@Dar es Allarah said
"What do you think the blood of the saints is?"
Their consciousness.
@Dar es Allarah said
"What is the cup wherein their blood is mingled?"
The sahasrara chakra, also called the holy grail.
@Dar es Allarah said
"And why can it never be separated any more?"
As consciousness is as foundational to the multiverse as outside reality is, single minds are akin to particles. But due to that, this is not the whole story, and there is a cosmic consciousness, perhaps one could say in more modern terms, a universal hive-mind of which we are only sparks. The quite high version of samadhi implied in the mingling of minds in the sahasrara (blood in the cup) leads to a beginning of awareness of this ultimate consciousness we all share to an extent, and this consciousness of the hive can no more be suppressed due to the nature of the experience.
My assumption is that the whole topic is relevant to people on the road to transcend the A.A. step of 7°=4° and beyond, and not to family bloodlines etc. at all.
I felt compelled to write something because superficial interpretations of mystical terminologies like these have lead to some of the really paranoid allegations against occultists in general. Sorry should I have intruded on something unintentionally."
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@Veronica said
"While I may come across shallow at times"
You didn't.
I actually think Crowley is at fault here, with his subtexts-within-texts-within-contexts approach to some topics. He seems to have had this idea to separate the chaff from the wheat (of interested people) by looking who understood his allusions, and connecting some of them with the nescessity of having made certain experiences to fully understand them.
While I understand that this was nescessary for example concerning the topic of sex due to him living in victorian times, where someone like Oscar Wilde was sentenced to two years of essentially labor camp (de facto to death, he died as a consequence of the experience) for much less than the things Crowley talked about and practised, he went overboard with it for other issues without the need imo.
It is, in today's hindsight, quite regrettable that he did, it made a field day for the fundamentalist PR factions to create the wildest medieval conspiracy theories about him and his methods - quite some of them having to do with metaphors about blood and children - and there are many more of them than people fitting for individual evolution on the scale he apparently envisioned.
@Veronica said
"... I ... do not intend on feeding on disinformation, and modeling fear driven behaviors. My query was from real befuddelment and an attempt to gain clarity for my self on what I believe is true."
As said, I think Crowley often flew in the face of his own ideas about "putting all in plain sight for anyone to see", "using the method of science" and, as he said in his old age, "close the temples and open the laboratories".
He made it easy to be painted as "mad, bad and dangerous to know" by his enemies, and I for one think it was too high a price to pay. And has often attracted the wrong people to his ideas (not talking about you, Veronica).
Don't worry too much what others may think of you. The only stupid questions are questions unasked
Regards
Simon
P.S.:
@Dar es Allarah said
"@ Simon Iff - I think this might interest you..."
It does, thanks for the interesting link, and yes, that is precisely what I meant, especially the first point of view; the second one is, from a comparatively microcosmic perspective, also quite interesting and thoughtful. Thanks again!
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To be a Magician,
IS
TO BE, the child,
As
When did you become someone else?My Brother,who stands at both sides
I stand under you...CUP, spelled: I - C - U - P
Should answer all your questions
Alas!
You are not really looking for answers, are you?To FILL the CUP,
Is not to be a Saint
Or a Father
Mother, Killer, Lover, Fucker, Hater, Destroyer, Creator...
It is to be ALL OF THEM
For, I shall not raise my hand and act, with violence
But I have killed and shall continue to do soVerily! I shall live again!
Though I never die
I change, leaving skins behind
Slithering up the spine
Forked tongue, slips
IN your ear
SUDDENLY
The all is clear...
Bubbling, up, in the suds of your beer
Carefully arranged line of crystals
A pop in your headIf it all seems familiar, it should
You have done this a million times to get here
Though you never quite experienced it like this
How IT IS in THIS particular MOMENT
And THIS particular MOMENT
NEVER COMES AGAIN
So stop trying to defend the status quo and roll with itThere is more I wish I could say but have yet to find the words for.
My only option is to keep typing out this replies, certain that this MON-KEY, eventually, THROUGH WILL creates a play to which he may set SHAKE-SPEAR as the name. -
@Dar es Allarah said
"93 Veronica,
I found a nice video by T Polyphilus hosted by Speech in the Silence on Youtube today - focusing on the Children of Thelemites and their role in our movement.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqNKOld_QKo&list=UU1MviHwIOsaRaFyQv_hpzQA&index=25&feature=plpp_video
It strikes me that with all of your experience with the local boy scouts, that you might have insights and a valuable contribution to make on this issue with respect to Thelema orders.
p.s. Talking of children, there's just been a bunch of little Roman centurions ran by outside - coming back from visiting the Fort. Their daddy had the swords and arrows. It made me laugh and, since I've just listened to T Polyphilus - wonder what dressing up games little Thelemites could play.
"Funny you should mention BSA,
I think that this topic came to my front mind because of my great dissappointment with that whole organization, and most of the the other organizations I have looked into involving my children and family with.I am seriously concidering the fact that it would be healthier for me to involve my children with HellsAngels, then BSA and GSA. What a big mind fUdge to see that the outlaws of society seem to honor truth and loyalty stronger then Mainstream Cultural Programs.
it is projected that if the down trend continues BSA will be caput in 40 years.
I think that is a sad and serious fact, and one that says volumes about Humanity. What programs will our youth have, to get them in to the woods to see the forest, and to swim in the lakes? This program is one of the few that actively involves human being with the simp,e act of observing our world, and learning how to adapt and change with it.
Do they have an app for that?Supperficially I can say that the blood is just a metaphor, and that those two statements are not to be taken literally. Yet, i have heard conversations between people who had so much rage and hate, that they spoke of the complete distruction of blood lines. Our history books are filled with the battles of men destroying other men, and then reseeding the population with thier own seeds.
I have so many little children in this world, and I dont like the options availible to raise them. I have to make my own options I guess.
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Your truth is almost painful Brother
I C U P...
Funny one, havent heard that in ages....I never was able to roll with the status quo thou.
I am getting old enough thou
That when some one asks me out
I feel
Its better to show up
And have a bad time
Then to not have had any time at all.@Uni_Verse said
"To be a Magician,
IS
TO BE, the child,
As
When did you become someone else?My Brother,who stands at both sides
I stand under you...CUP, spelled: I - C - U - P
Should answer all your questions
Alas!
You are not really looking for answers, are you?To FILL the CUP,
Is not to be a Saint
Or a Father
Mother, Killer, Lover, Fucker, Hater, Destroyer, Creator...
It is to be ALL OF THEM
For, I shall not raise my hand and act, with violence
But I have killed and shall continue to do soVerily! I shall live again!
Though I never die
I change, leaving skins behind
Slithering up the spine
Forked tongue, slips
IN your ear
SUDDENLY
The all is clear...
Bubbling, up, in the suds of your beer
Carefully arranged line of crystals
A pop in your headIf it all seems familiar, it should
You have done this a million times to get here
Though you never quite experienced it like this
How IT IS in THIS particular MOMENT
And THIS particular MOMENT
NEVER COMES AGAIN
So stop trying to defend the status quo and roll with itThere is more I wish I could say but have yet to find the words for.
My only option is to keep typing out this replies, certain that this MON-KEY, eventually, THROUGH WILL creates a play to which he may set SHAKE-SPEAR as the name." -
""For us if we have children we leave some of our Soul here on Earth, which is why those doing the Great Work often don't want children as it means a continuation until they have died, and if they have children it continues. Once we have completed the Great Work and our Soul is no longer on Earth, we don't return to the source, we become a planet and we create our own world. Until we have stopped the rebirth cycle and done the Great Work we are trapped in someone else's world""
I think this is the source:
www.templeoftheola.org/the-great-mother--the-great-work.html