The Matter and Semantic of Spirits.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Oldfriend,
You seem to be engaged with bating Jim with a lot of involuted crap that has no bearing on your original question whatsoever. "
lol, well my response to Jim admittedly has as much bearing to my original question as his response does. But seriously, really? Crap? My original post said "I was hoping I could find a little engagement around a topic of deep philosophical study and contemplation for me right now - the matter of spirit/spirits. I'm hoping through an exchange between bright minds of Thelema, I and the community can come into a deeper level of understanding and wisdom regarding this word and it's meaning"
Far as I can tell, I am still on topic. What does the words Spirit and spirits refer to in their usage?
"What the hell was the point you were trying to make with your badly constructed fish/water/ocean metaphor when it comes to spirits?"
I think the metaphor of ocean to fishes and spirit and spirits, was, ahem, Jim's metaphor. I think my response to Jim's metaphor confused him as to my meaning in my query so I attempted further clarification.
I'm trying to be as clear as I can - this is tough territory to transverse here, you all have been helping me clarify and I thank you for it.
"I have endeavored to answer you enquiry above, but as you don't seem interested in the topic any longer and seem more engaged in compensating for what I can only imagine is a tragic phallic deficiency that drives you to make a prick of yourself on this forum - then perhaps this thread ought to be closed..."
I appreciate your answer. Sorry if this has been upsetting to you. Not my intention.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"
@ldfriend56 said
"Are spirits just metaphors for memes or are memes just metaphors for spirits?"Only if you're being spectacularly narrow minded."
Really? how so? If I am being narrow minded, I would appreciate any assistance in my expansion of the topic. What specifically is narrow minded about asking the question?
"Seriously - is that the best you have to put on the table for debate? "
I did not come here with the intention of debating what spirits are or are not. I came here seeking further understanding from a philosophical perspective, outside of the realm of magick and shamanism. The community here claims to have an understanding of Spirits and Spirit - I'm just trying to tease out the meanings
" No original thoughts of your own? Ok... that's right on par then.
"sheesh, no one asked me what I thought spirits or Spirit are. If you curious about my original thoughts on the matter, just ask
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Semantics is the subject of the original question. I do try to address the actual question presented, and this question was specifically about semantics."
Semantic means 'meaning' - not words specifically, which simply refer to meaning. Yes the subject matter is 'The Matter and Meaning of Spirits'. 'Matter' being a slight play on the words, as in the composition of spirits in a measurable sense, and the 'matter at hand' in the discussion, Spirits, by which I mean what do the words mean in relationship to the matter of what spirits are?
Sorry if this has proven to be a controversial and debatable topic.
"Maybe I could have taken even more time to specifically inquire. I did, however, start with the exact point of clarifying definitions and in talking about the problem of definition with that word. I agree with you that this is pivotal."
I agree it is pivotal - thank you for clarifying.
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Let's found out what Spirit/spirits is/are "empirically."
conflicts with
Let's get there through philosophical discussion.
conflicts with
Let's also attempt to reason "independent[ly] of our ideas and experiences about them."
conflicts with
Let's also include all historic popular references from multiple languages in what we're considering.
You have created an impossible task for yourself.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"You need to get yourself to something because the rest of your post reflects that you don't understand what I'm telling you at all."
yikes! strike hard and low! nice, okay, what a great opportunity it is for me then to obtain some greater understanding regarding spirit and spirits, the actual intention of what I came here for. So you wish to introduce a new postulate regarding me into this discussion. While I am not the topic of discussion, Let me review again what you wrote below and see what I missed.
"For one - you have to check if the question contains any faulty presuppositions before you proceed to build the model. In this case then then you first have to check whether there's any such thing as a nonmaterial entity, and as Jim said: "the way that Spirit is used in magick (identical with Akasha), it includes physical matter". I think the Orch OR model of consciousness has validity above the threshold of reasonable doubt and so I would naturally reject the idea of non-material entities completely. Spacetime - down to a quantum level - has a physical existence in the Universe. Consciousness (and therefore spirit - see above defnition) is as much a quality of the Universe as Energy or Gravity, being a product of the interaction of the two - whether consciousness is located in a body or not."
at this stage, I come with no pre suppositions regarding spirit, consciousness, or matter for that, ahem, matter. I can look at the subject from a myriad of points of view - assuming a immaterial/material dialectic OR simply oscillating scale of frequency of spirt which converges into the physical reality we bear our sense on. You apparently have a favorite scientific model of consciousness. join the club! if i had a nickle for every scientific model of consciousness out there, I'd have enough for a subscription to a peer reviewed journal of your choice.
Not sure what I am missing here, I seem to follow you quite clearly. It's classical philosophical conundrums going on here.
Perhaps you do not understand me yet?
"The Penrose/Hammeroff Or OR model falls into neither category. It explains consciousness on a sub-neuron network level that extends beyond 'the brain' via the virtue of quantum switching proteins and microtubules. It is material in the sense that the universe is material but consciousness does not start and end in the brain. I suggest you actually look it up (given that it's been a valid hypothesis for 20 years now) and actually try and respond to me from a position of peer review instead of assuming that you understand what I'm talking about. All the evidence so far suggests that you do not. "
Okay so you have a favorite model of consciousness that uses math and physics to offer an explanation. So? Western materialsim assumes the primacy of the material, i.e. the material is fundamental to consciousness and consciousness is a state of the brain and is dependent on the brain to be accessed. So there are a few scientific models that suggest variations of this theme, they still are not suggesting that there is a cartesian dualism of spirit and matter. The interaction between 'spirit' and 'matter' is a fundamental problem in philosophy over all and there are numerous POV's on the subject matter.
also, might i suggest, if you want me to understand you, it's always easier when your not insulting the querent! just saying. common decency and that sort of thing. but I dig the 'strike hard and low' style, truly. I hope you do too
"Again - you need to do more reading if you want to engage in a philosophical debate on this subject with me. "
I see...so a reading list is in order, a prerequisite to be able to discuss with you. I shall not trouble you with the converse! I would not want you to suffer through the volumes of study I have had to sift through on this topic over the years. It's unnecessary actually, especially since we are not debating much of anything, really.
"The terms 'Dark Matter' and 'Dark Energy' are misnomers that easily throw off the beginner to the subject, and since you don't seem to have any understanding of the Orch OR model to begin with - it's useless to debate with you further on the role of either when it comes to of Quantum Consciousness. "
Sheesh, when did this turn into a debate regarding quantum consciousness? What does DM and DE have to do with that anyway? A 'quantum' is a measurable bit. A measurable bit has mass and therefore sits squarely in the realm of material physical reality. That's a physical model of consciousness and has nothing to do with Cartesian Dualism or the inherent problems of ANY model of consciousness from a philosophical perspective. You're talking about scientific models. I am talking about philosophical models.
There are some distinctions there you would do good to take note of! (and a few reading lists)
I don't think you understood my reference to DM and DE, but I dont care, let's toss it from the discussion.
"[Further useless speculation and drivel snipped for brevities sake.]"
such subjectivity! the only thing that i find useless so far in this discussion is the necessity of a reading list to understand you.
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Spirits is what you get drunk on, the spirit is the essence of drunkenness.
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"I can look at the subject from a myriad of points of view - assuming a immaterial/material dialectic OR simply oscillating scale of frequency of spirt which converges into the physical reality we bear our sense on. You apparently have a favorite scientific model of consciousness. join the club! if i had a nickle for every scientific model of consciousness out there, I'd have enough for a subscription to a peer reviewed journal of your choice."
So what's the point? You profess understanding of all the models.
You even describe the model where all spirits (as all else) are essentially comprised of Spirit.
What's the point? What do you want to discuss? Or do you just want to play "nobody can pin me down" all day?
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@ldfriend56 said
"Oceans are more than just water as in H20, it is comprised of animals, plants, various chemicals, salts, minerals, etc. Fish are also composed mainly of water but also other chemicals and organic compounds. Ocean and fish share a set of information called 'h20'. "
This is only applicable when dealing with oceans on this planet.
Do not forget all the fishes in rivers and lakes!
Also in peoples houses and tanks...
Most importantly, be polite and say : "Thanks!"
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The good thing (for me) is, that my reply helped generate a revitalised debate on a topic I find interesting.
The bad thing (again for me) is, that the tone has gotten a bit unnescessary rough imo. Had I to guess I would assume that some of you guys have a problematic history with each other and that injects itself into the debate at some point.
I can already say that my point of view on the whole thing (and the proposed "third" option besides subjective and objective phenomena) goes into a possibly similar direction as Dar es Allarah's quantum consciousness intuitions. Also J.E., your saying about science and empiricism I would actually sign on to, I would only add to that that science, ideally, should be based on empiricism and not a "sceptic" (misuse of word by the way) naive realism based rationalism. The later is a step back from empiricism imo, not one forwards, for any endeavour of seeking understanding of nearly whatever.
Will write something concerning the topic at hand tomorrow as it is very late already where I live and I am tired.
Good night everyone.
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@Bereshith said
"Let's found out what Spirit/spirits is/are "empirically."
conflicts with
Let's get there through philosophical discussion.
conflicts with
Let's also attempt to reason "independent[ly] of our ideas and experiences about them."
conflicts with
Let's also include all historic popular references from multiple languages in what we're considering.
You have created an impossible task for yourself."
ha! yes it's interesting that this is raised the ire so much here. I believe it's just the inherent 'conflict of idea' and some of these ideas are easy for us to get attached to.
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"I've already given you a definition on this thread. Go and re-read it and do something about your limbic system while you're at it."
yes, I read it, thanks! I'm hoping my B-3 will kick in soon so I can understand your wisdom and get to your reading list! cheers
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@Dar es Allarah said
"You're arguing from a position of ignorance and making an {***} of yourself with your inflated assumptions. "
What am I arguing about exactly? can you explain it to me with simplicity, brevity, clarity, and devoid of innuendos about myself, my limbic system, and my reading list?
" And now you want to know what's wrong?"
I think you're coming to a debate and I am only presenting an open inquiry into spirits. I am not debating much here.
"Ignorance - that's all. Simple ignorance on your part that's all mixed up with a know it all attitude and an unwillingness to read around a subject thoroughly before you attempt to debate it. "
project much?
"You would not get any other attitude (maybe more pity than I'm capable of...) at any university. (I studied Philosophy at Uni btw - right before I got interested in Physics). "
ok great you're super smart.
"I've told you that the Orch OR model does not fall into either a Cartesian Dualism or the purely material 'it's all in the brain' perspectives and your only response is to choose not to believe me (on the basis of what?) and reiterate the tired old philosophical schism you've been taught. "
Well I would disagree with you regarding philosophical conclusion regarding the the Orch OR model, but that's not what this discussion is about, one particular scientific model of consciousness. It's not even about models of consciousness. It's an inquery into the nature of spirit and spirits. You offered one set of answers. Thanks for that.
"Stick you head in the sand then! You won't learn anything new but your kind never do..."
my...kind?
"For anyone else interested in consciousness, you might find this talk by nobel prize winner, Professor Roger Penrose - interesting.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=f477FnTe1M0
and also -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXFFbxoHp3
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEpUIcOodnM&feature=relatedand the implications of this are discussed with Deepak Chopra -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPMwuc0Us_U&feature=relmfu- A series that discusses reincarnation - the hard problem of consciousness, qualia, life after death, etc. - The *philosophical *implications."
Scientific Models of consciousness come and go and at the end of the day, they are just models and the inherent problem of consciousness as a field of study remains. What would be interesting is if you take your favorite model of consciousness, the Orch OR model, and showed how spirits would be modeled therein.
-OR- it would be great if as a community we could focus on the inherent mysteries of spirits and spirit and consciousness and the like, before we go around parading our favorite truths about the subject at hand.
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@Bereshith said
"
So what's the point? You profess understanding of all the models. "My original query is regarding the nature of Spirit and Spirits, and, as put eloquently by a few on this forum, I am simply seeking a more empirical model for 'spirits'. My approach is philosophical, and although informed by science and the materialist schools, not restricted by them, meaning; I am come here open minded, as a practitioner of a few esoteric arts while seeking objective understanding.
Now the point seems to have evolved though, and the point seems to be more about me, as many in the community are making it. It appears the point somehow really is that my questions are 'narrow minded' and unnecessary, foolish, a waste of time, poorly understood by myself while at the same time arrogant in my reasoning - all of which tell you plenty about me but nothing about spirit or spirits.
lol - And I'm thinking....I must be on to something
"
What do you want to discuss? "
I would like to calmly, honestly, objectively and thoughtfully discuss 'Spirits' and 'Spirit' - I guess you could say on many planes, from the linguistic semantic to the incorporeal straight up to the mystery of it all. I have been contemplating this for a bit and seek to create a larger empirical map - and thought, and still assume, that this community can be quite helpful in forming this. After all, if it's empirical it's something we all can share in.
thoughts?
"
Or do you just want to play "nobody can pin me down" all day?"
well, that's always fun when people are trying to pin me down
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@Simon Iff said
"The good thing (for me) is, that my reply helped generate a revitalised debate on a topic I find interesting."
yes, thank you simon, this was indeed a good thing and i look forward to exploring this with you.
"The bad thing (again for me) is, that the tone has gotten a bit unnescessary rough imo. "
Well, I would like to submit to you the possibility that this is also a good thing. It's healthy when the conflict of idea presents itself, especially in a place of public media which creates a fresh environment for rational discussion. I think we all are going to learn a lot.
"Had I to guess I would assume that some of you guys have a problematic history with each other and that injects itself into the debate at some point."
I have hardly discussed with those here before - maybe a comment here or there. I too found this response a shock, it wasn't what i was expecting by any means. I think this may have something to do with what we all stand to learn - but that also just may be a hope
"I can already say that my point of view on the whole thing (and the proposed "third" option besides subjective and objective phenomena) goes into a possibly similar direction as Dar es Allarah's quantum consciousness intuitions. "
I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts here, thank you Simon IFF
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@ldfriend56 said
"it would be great if as a community we could focus on the inherent mysteries of spirits and spirit and consciousness and the like, before we go around parading our favorite truths about the subject at hand."
You want mysteries but you don't want truths? Yagh and choke and spit twice, but those are pretty much the same thing.
I returned, against my better judgement, to see if this thread had sorted itself out in my absence. It hasn't. So I'll give you one more shot:
Please state, in one or two sentences, as concretely and specfically as possible, exactly what you are asking or exactly what you are saying.
If you believe you have already done this, then please excuse my mental insufficiency and copy or restate it so there is a clear starting point for response.
Thank you.
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"I'm trying to find the shared information between Spirit, Spirits, Gods, Angels, Demons, etc. Low vibration intelligences and high vibration intelligences beyond the physical senses must share something in common for the metaphor of 'vibration' to be used amongst them."
This is what he's asking: "What is the shared information between Spirit, spirits, gods, angels, demons, etc.."
By "shared information" and "objective information" he means "substance," but he's trying to use a word that avoids the material/immaterial distinction. He wants to know what the substance is and how it becomes spirits.
He thinks he doesn't have any biases, though, so don't be surprised when he challenges whatever you present and then accuses you of being attached to bias.
His bias is empiricism - that spirits can be classified using a system based in the lowest common denominator in humanity - that of sense experience. He's been told that to describe what spirits actually are would require the invention of some new vocabulary and would still be very difficult to communicate because it's not based in humanity's lowest common denominator of sense experience. He ignored this, and persisted with his own bias, which he thinks he doesn't have.
@Oldfriend said
"I assume you are using vibration as a metaphor for something and not something of any sort of objective measurement. "
"Yet you begin telling me that there is a specific measurement of spirit as a vibration. Vibrations, as defined, are; " mechanical phenomenon whereby oscillations occur about an equilibrium point. The oscillations may be periodic such as the motion of a pendulum or random such as the movement of a tire on a gravel road." Yet then you say you can't tell me what this thing is that would be measured, which tells me you personally therefore have never measured it. I don't see how this could be any more of an assumption, even if an appropriate one. It's certainly not objective philosophically by any means objective is defined other than the statement is viewable online and could have varying truth values. "
Again, notice that the querent insists that spirits have something to them that is objectively measurable. He, however, does not put forward any theories as to what such objectively measurable information is. But he insists both that it exists and that we should have the ability to describe it to him in empirical terms.
Also note from the above quote: "philosophical objectivity." The querent wants a philosophically derived and philosophically objective empirical map of the relationship between Spirit and spirits as well as between spirits and spirits.
Now, remember, anything but that, and* you're* just biased, unlike him. Because, of course, all this is* certainly* possible.
And if I am incorrect in my presentation, I certainly welcome and challenge OldFriend to clarify.
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This is probably a very astute, cogent, and accurate assessment.
I see no reason to engage him further unless HE embraces this. I won't have any further conversation with him unless he agrees (concretely and precisely) what we're talking about, so that every detail of interchange thereafter (in that thread) can be referred to that starting definition - but OTOH there are some points you've raised that I'd be happy to respond to, in case that actually resolves the matter.
@Bereshith said
"He wants to know what the substance is and how it becomes spirits."
There is only one substance in the universe. You can express or describe this in various ways - e.g., in material terms, as diverse kinds of quanta interacting and vibrating at different rates and mixing in different combinations and relationships - but, mostly, those details don't matter. The Mysteries tend to call it "The One Substance," thereby expressing its most important characteristic without getting bogged down in other labels.
This One Substancer exists at different states of vibration. "Vibration" may ultimately turtn out not to be the right word, but, so far, it serves pretty much everything in physics (down to the most subtle levels - "plucked strings"), and, at the very least, it gives a conceptual way to talk about the matter that doesn't require post-graduate math. The analogy - no, actually, it's not an analogy, it's an actuality - but the path to entering an understanding of this is to leverage our knowledge that molecular velocity (rate of vibration; essentially, heat) is the only distinction between ice, water, and steam; or between iron and molten iron; or between mercury and mercury vapor. Increase the particle velocity - and you move from the most tenuous forms of matter (gas) into energy. (That's basically what E=MC{2} says.) And so forth.
These rates of vibration exist in "bands" that we can call all sorts of things - states, worlds, dimensions, or whatever - even though the gradual increase of vibration is continous. For example, the "line" between red and orange doesn't exactly exist (they're just a different rate of vibration), because there are infinite gradations of red-orange in between; however, the dividing line between "below visible light," "visible light," and "above visible light" is quite dramatic (if slightly varied per perceiving organism). Physicists, similarly, have divided the EM spectrum into larger categories above and below visible light. These each have different characteristics, despite the smooth continuity of vibrational change along the spectrum.
So: There is one substance, and it exists across a continuum of vibration, with different "bands" of that continuum having more or less common characteristics.
"Spiritual beings" are formed from "spiritual substance" exactly the same way that "physical beings" are formed from "physical substance." At least some types of beings exist on multiple planes simultaneously; for example, humans (among others) are physical, astral, intellectual, and 'spiritual' beings (I use the latter in a reserved sense, not in the broad "not material" sense - since astral and intellectual levels are also "not material" if we mean physical matter).
All things we can perceive have vibrations, so they are all "living." OTOH, not all things have the appearance of having their various layers concentric to a distinctive sense of existence. But that's a whole other topic.
Hopefully this simplifies, rather than confuses, the matter.
"Also note from the above quote: "philosophical objectivity." The querent wants a philosophically derived and philosophically objective empirical map of the relationship between Spirit and spirits as well as between spirits and spirits."
It's all there in the sentence: Spiritual beings" are formed from "spiritual substance" exactly the same way that "physical beings" are formed from "physical substance."
Now - having enjoyed this interchange with you - I wait to see if OF will similar pin down, in a sentence or two, what he is asking or affirming, as a precise point of departure for anything going forward.
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Jim, thank you for returning and your willingness to assist here.
@Jim Eshelman said
"You want mysteries but you don't want truths? Yagh and choke and spit twice, but those are pretty much the same thing."
Well it would be great to understand the objective mysteries as well as what is believed to be true about Spirit, Spirits from a ceremonial magickal perspective. So we are clear and do not get caught up in semantic word dance again. I assume there are inherent mysteries and unknowns in this subtle realm that are equally unknown to all of us, while somethings just might be unknown to some and not to others. As for what is 'true' the only thing I know for absolute certainty about spirit, spirits is that the experience of communicating, interacting, and obtaining knowledge that is verifiable happens and that I can say this is what 'true' means to me in this context. You might phrase that differently, but that is the assumption we are building this off of.
"Please state, in one or two sentences, as concretely and specfically as possible, exactly what you are asking or exactly what you are saying."
I'm looking to build an empirical map of what can be referred to as Spirit, Spirits - specifically; What are they exactly, how much can empirically be known about them? What is a rational and intuitive way to frame this particular set of phenomenon in relationship to the physical, measurable phenomenon of material reality? What does this tell us about ourselves, where we are from and where we are going?
I should add that my empirical map is not 'of' the spirit world and the occult, it is a map of human consciousness and all the capabilities therein. Personally, I view the realm of spirit as purely of an entirely different order than that of the physical senses, but seeking further understanding in clarifying this.
I don't assume anyone here as the ultimate answers, and some but not all will have key insights into specific mysteries here. I'm hoping the dynamics of the discussion may bring further things into light to the benefit of everyone, but that's a hunch and nothing more.
And just one more point - If my request reads peculiar, forgive me - I am a responsible adult who runs a business, has a family to look after for, and in my spare time I spend much around my hobby, philosophy and primarily the realms of ontology and dialectic. I just want to be transparent here and show that I am up to no shenanigans and at worst just mildly eccentric
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@ldfriend56 said
"Well it would be great to understand the objective mysteries"
You're missing the meaning of "Mystery." The Mystery of a thing is that part that is unknowable. It doesn't fit within rational terms, is inherently indecipherable by most cognitive processes. One can pursue it - move closer to it - move through one's own projections about them and other veils. The value of Mysteries is that one constantly pursues them, moves into them - and thus moves past one's own perception and cognition limitations. The value is both in what is unknown, and what is unknowable . The ultimately unknowable is the most true of a thing.
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Oh... You want to make a taxonomical classification system for non-corporeal entities.
In order to do this, I don't know how much you'd have to actually delve in to mystery. Like, I really have no idea. For instance, the taxonomical systems existed before the theory of evolution. Don't know. Just thinking out loud.
Well, you could start with the regular one and think from there:
Domain
Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order
Family
Genus
SpeciesThat would be interesting.
You need some categories though.
Ahah! You need some categories.... Now I'm caught up. Thanks for clarifying.