The Ordeal of the Siren.
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@Ethar said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Archaeus said
"I tried doing it without joining the Order years ago, and had no results or Ordeals to speak of.
Interstingly enough I was getting both results and Ordeals by the bucketload within months of signing the Probationer Oath for real.
Maybe this has something to do with the level of sinscerity I brought to the Order compared to my solitary efforts?"When you tried alone, did you sign the Oath by yourself? Or worked without the Oath?
Love is the law, love under will."
Yeah, I did the whole thing, but to be honest it felt phoney, I knew early on that I needed to find the Actual AA, that took me about 15 years. (That was back in the days before internet made finding a contact relatively easy. Now the great difficulty is getting a reply as most AA lineages are flooded with letters requesting admission, its like applying for a sought after job.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Hmm, interesting. I don't know, I see the Oath signing as a big, big, big deal, even without the presence of a physical initiate. Claiming to be in it and all. Success is thy proof, after all.
I love this A∴A∴ subject.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Ethar said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Hmm, interesting. I don't know, I see the Oath signing as a big, big, big deal, even without the presence of a physical initiate. Claiming to be in it and all. Success is thy proof, after all.
I love this A∴A∴ subject.
Love is the law, love under will."
True, success is your proof, I just found that form my own success, actual initiation into a branch of the actual AA was the necessary catalyst.
Others may disagree, which is fine, due to the difficulty of finding a genuine connection it might well be easier to do it yourself.
Besides, there are many other ways up the mountain, I certainly don't think that the AA (man made) has the monopoly on spiritual attainment.
For me though, the other option was to join a Zen monastery, but then I like the whole getting up early to meditate thing.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"True, success is your proof, I just found that form my own success, actual initiation into a branch of the actual AA was the necessary catalyst."
This. Everyone is different. Also, views on what is "actual A∴A∴" may differ.
"Others may disagree, which is fine, due to the difficulty of finding a genuine connection it might well be easier to do it yourself."
My case is a bit complex, but I don't feel like going into details right now. Sometime in the future I shall explain it all.
"Besides, there are many other ways up the mountain, I certainly don't think that the AA (man made) has the monopoly on spiritual attainment."
No one can disagree. But it certainly is awesome.
"For me though, the other option was to join a Zen monastery, but then I like the whole getting up early to meditate thing."
lol
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Frater Potater said
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I can dig this. But only because I understand the context of what you mean. Someone who has no idea what Thelema is, or has no intuition to perceive this, would not have the slightest idea of what you mean. How would you explain this to them, or to an atheist?
"The Ineffable Mystery of Life
@Frater Potater said
"
And it's equally true that most new agers/occultists are Juedeo-Christian-Islamist in a fancy new dress."The average shall remain average.
What is considered 'occult' is not really so these days with the proliferation of the internet.@Frater Potater said
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Excellent. I will agree and add that the best service one can do for themselves, and for the universe, is to simply seek out and do their will. A person can be supported by others in this, and pushed along gently like a boat in water, but no one can dictate this to another person or tell them how to fulfill the task."Exactly!
Going from what I wrote before: If you want to know what kind of Work you are going to be doing in any Order you can easily get an idea with a bit of searching.
What is most important is the fruit, the people involved.An interesting notion that was brought up in Jims talk the other day is this:
An Order can be very much like a family...
You can use it as an excuse to maintain the status quo, having a 'comfortable place to fit.'
There is the other option of using it as a forum of self-exploration and growth.
Of having people around you, going through the same process.
Open to the idea that you are evolving and providing you a place to test out and create new habits.
Going with my loner example...
An Order, or really, any Group working together provides a relatively safe place to learn about expressing ones own individuality while at the same time integrating into a group.In the end the usefulness of any tool is dependent on how the Magician chooses to utilize it.
@Frater Potater said
"
It's such a pretty song.
"So keep on dancing!
Ever unafraid,
That the rocks betray
And in Death are thou unmade
Verily!
Thou shalt LIVE
And though you may have the Face of another
Thou art still my Brother -
Well, why is it that joining an official order brings this on, but not a solitary practitioner? I don't want people to act like this is all mystical or magical with some mysterious "universe speaking to you" reasons when this is rather obvious to the mundane.
According to the siren, it is perceived, that it is implied that the student will, sooner or later, sleep with his or her guru, and by that, I do not mean innocent lying next to each other in a tent, oh no, I mean in the more commonly used sexual manner. Now, this would be true regardless of the gender of the initiated, and his or her initiator.
Now, according to the siren, this so called guru is merely a mundane man or woman, but one who has slept around and collected several students, so thus has a high likely hood of transmitting something other than so called linage, rather diseases that are commonly passed from person to person by this methodology.
Who wants an STD? Well, not a siren, they remain pure and unsullied by mortal sin, and thus will abandon the aspirant.
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For fun, but a good bit for real too...
Monty Python and [www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjio-F47IfM&feature=youtu.be&t=3m40s:116ucka4]](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjio-F47IfM&feature=youtu.be&t=3m40s:116ucka4)
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@Bereshith said
"For fun, but a good bit for real too...
Monty Python and [www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjio-F47IfM&feature=youtu.be&t=3m40s:33uauxbj]](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjio-F47IfM&feature=youtu.be&t=3m40s:33uauxbj)"
Quality film
Good choice.
93 93/93
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Probationers are always given the chance to betray the Order. That's their challenge."
Yep... thus the Siren... Neophyte is the Vampire.
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@Duo Columpnas said
"93's, all.
For those who passed that particular test... What were the characteristics of a "Siren" as opposed to a good friend and true lover for you in retrospect?
Also, is this Ordeal universal to all Probationers/aspirants?"This is easy... do you view this person as your Babalon? Do you think it is your True Will to be with them? Do you choose her over your obligations and work in the Order? If you said yes to any of this... you are on the path of failure.
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The question is what attributes does this 'siren' generally have?
Will she try and dissuade you from your work, or claim that it's wrong or evil?
What if she isn't a siren and you simply found someone you fell in love with?
The only problem I see is that there should be a clear classification of this
personality. So, that one can be properly prepared to handle the ordeal. -
Not talking from experience, but I'll give it a try.
@milkBoxx said
"The question is what attributes does this 'siren' generally have?"
Remember it doesn't have to manifest as a human being (supposedly).
"Will she try and dissuade you from your work, or claim that it's wrong or evil?"
Possibly. Likely, I think, though it probably won't be a conscious decision of hers, assuming there is a "her" on the first place.
"What if she isn't a siren and you simply found someone you fell in love with?"
Success is your proof.
"The only problem I see is that there should be a clear classification of this
personality. So, that one can be properly prepared to handle the ordeal."I guess the uncertainty is part of the ordeal. No point in trying to make our lives easier. (Also, what matters is: don't get distracted. Keep the Work up. I would guess if you keep worried about someone's "siren status", that will stir your mind even more and help get you off track.)
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@milkBoxx said
"The only problem I see is that there should be a clear classification of this
personality. So, that one can be properly prepared to handle the ordeal."One of my respected teachers shared the following bit of wisdom, which has served me well for a long time:
All ordeals are either ordeals of perseverance, or ordeals of discrimination.
The thing is, we never know which.
If we did, it wouldn't be an ordeal.
PS - The ultimate enemy is your own undisciplined Nephesh. However, knowing that won't help much. Here are the only two published remarks by Crowley on the nature of the ordeal:
@Liber 24 said
"It is even said that to every Neophyte of the Order of A.'.A.'. appeareth a demon in the form of a woman to pervert him; within Our own knowledge have not less than nine breth-ren been utterly cast out thereby."
@The Confessions of Aleister Crowley said
"I believed then, and believe now, that... the neophyte is nearly always tempted by a woman."
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Through this ordeal, Liber AL, II.67, has served me as a sturdy pylon:
""Hold! Hold! Bear up in thy rapture; fall not in swoon of the excellent kisses!"
"I don't think relationship is impossible when embarking upon this Work, but it is definitely challenging. I am changing and growing so much in this current, and it has the tendency to destabilize the bond with my significant other. There's also a propensity to dilute my zeal, rather than to embody it, and for the old persona to erect a heady distraction to avoid its own uprooting.
For things to flourish, I must be firm in my resolve and courageous in my forthrightness and my silence, the affinity must be absolutely electrifying, and my partner must be unreasonably patient and accepting.
When I hold all of that together, the payoff is huge, but I have to be vigilant not to settle for less....
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
@milkBoxx said
"The only problem I see is that there should be a clear classification of this
personality. So, that one can be properly prepared to handle the ordeal."One of my respected teachers shared the following bit of wisdom, which has served me well for a long time:
All ordeals are either ordeals of perseverance, or ordeals of discrimination.
The thing is, we never know which.
If we did, it wouldn't be an ordeal.
PS - The ultimate enemy is your own undisciplined Nephesh. However, knowing that won't help much. Here are the only two published remarks by Crowley on the nature of the ordeal:
@Liber 24 said
"It is even said that to every Neophyte of the Order of A.'.A.'. appeareth a demon in the form of a woman to pervert him; within Our own knowledge have not less than nine breth-ren been utterly cast out thereby."
@The Confessions of Aleister Crowley said
"I believed then, and believe now, that... the neophyte is nearly always tempted by a woman."
"Thanks Jim, as always your wisdom is greatly appreciated
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@P is for Pomegranate said
"93's, all.
For those who passed that particular test... What were the characteristics of a "Siren" as opposed to a good friend and true lover for you in retrospect?
Also, is this Ordeal universal to all Probationers/aspirants?"I think thats a huge question that rises another huge questions.
I will share my personnal experience about sirens. I think i took the oath of the neophyte, without knowing about it, very early in life. As a kid !
Because i had astral visions, synchronicities, and stuff, from as far as i remember, and i always wanted to know and control the unknown... So, at the age of 6, i already asked about philosophy, undertook training in martial arts, tried to astral travel consiously, was looking always for "magick" movies, and so on... Some might think i'm crazy, but i saw Lilith in a lucid dream when i was a kid. 
It was a huge spiritual experience that influenced my whole childhood.At the latence period it got more calm, but it awakened again during puberty, and Lilith manifested through projection, using a classmate. She was a friend of mine, but "she" fucked up my last year of highschool(psychologically). Also, i lost a lot of magickal power at this time. Before that year, i was pretty good at everything i did... sports, school, social, girls, music... But, when the "shift" happened, i forgot everything, even my identity. I lost everything. It proved years later to be a good thing, and i got everything back, but it was hard as hell back then. The greatest thing about it is i felt love for the first time.
Honestly, i think i have just passed the ordeal, 10 years later
. When i undertook "real" initiation about 3 years ago, well, a little while after that i met a girl, who became the only girlfriend i really loved, and whith who i had a long term relationship. Well, she proved to be a siren. It went really bad, and destroyed me again. But during this, i had huge spiritual experiences. Also, at the end of it, i learnt about GD, AA, and... Lilith. That's Lilith who actually helped me break up the relationship, as crazy as it may sound. I was like she told me "stop projecting me ! here i am ! it's not them(the girls), it's me !". That definitely made me pass the ordeal on the physical plane, but not the ordeal as such, as i believe it involves yetziratic parts, and the actual Lilith.
So, basically, i started a relationship with the real Lilith.
And i fall in love with the real thing. . I went very far in my madness again, and it is a little too recent for me to tell all of what happened. But basically, she acted like a counter-weight with initiation. I would work like a madman in the path for a couple of months, then think only about the goule for the next couple of months, spending time just with her. I cannot establish rules from that, but in my case it was just my path, i had no choice. I just happened this way.I'm still close to her, and i can say i love her(the real one). But now she is not an obstacle, not even a counter-weight anymore. She's just a subtle being, with her qualities and her hard parts, like evreyone. It's up to me to be a real man, with her or without her. On the physical plane, i still deal with a siren, but she does not bother me. She just keep on trying.
I might actually be her male siren, without being conscious of it. I say this because i keep on trying(unconsciously) initiate her, whereas it seems it's not her path. So, i may act like a siren myself, trying to make her forget her own path.So, to conclude and answer more directly to the question, i dont think there are objective caracteristics except the "forgetting the path" part. It's more of a "dynamics of relationship", and of "libido economy" question. It may be very different from one person to the other, according to past experiences, personalities, karma and so on.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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All ordeals are either ordeals of perseverance, or ordeals of discrimination.The thing is, we never know which.
If we did, it wouldn't be an ordeal."
It reminds me of a Christian prayer:
“God give us strength to change what can be changed, acceptance to accept what cannot be changed and wisdom to tell one from the other.”
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@Faus said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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All ordeals are either ordeals of perseverance, or ordeals of discrimination.The thing is, we never know which.
If we did, it wouldn't be an ordeal."
It reminds me of a Christian prayer:
“God give us strength to change what can be changed, acceptance to accept what cannot be changed and wisdom to tell one from the other.”"
Ah, I see you are acquainted with the not-so-occult AA.
I get the feeling Crowley would want us to revamp the Alchoholics Anonymous prayers and steps in a Thelemic format. "Ascending the sobriety tree..."
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This comes from the A.A. that does not drink wine? I should start to attend to their rituals.
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Marcelo Motta was once attacked by a man who accused him of being in the "A.A." and he thought he was referring to the Order.
