Prostitution: Yay, or Nay ?
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I'm slightly confused as to the Thelemite position on prostitution. In Liber Oz, we have the following:
*Man has the right to love as he will: "take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where, and with whom ye will." *
Then we have Crowley (?) saying that "Prostitution (with its attendant crimes) will tend to disappear, as it will cease to offer exorbitant profits to those who exploit it."
I sort of understand what he is saying with this, but is this a condemnation of prostitution, or those who have sex with prostitutes, or a mere observation that if Thelema was practiced by all, prostitution would cease to exist ? Crowley often slept with prostitutes (let's face it, it's much easier then having to woo your way into a ladies underwear), and he seemed to have no qualms with it, aside of what he said in the quote. What do you all think ?
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@SerpentSeed123 said
"I'm slightly confused as to the Thelemite position on prostitution."
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
"Then we have Crowley (?) saying that "Prostitution (with its attendant crimes) will tend to disappear, as it will cease to offer exorbitant profits to those who exploit it.""
Yes, this is Crowley writing. This is a human document, not even classified - more or less an editorial. (Not even a Class E Document, i.e., an instruction in spreading the Law of Thelema.)
The p.o.v. here is the same as many of us made for years about drugs: Criminalization creates crime.
Most of the crime "attendant" to prostitution (besides the simple fact that prostitution itself is a crime in most places) is of this same type. There is the criminal way prostitutes are treated by their "managers," the drug addiction often use to keep them locked down and under control, the blackmail of the customer population (especially in the England of Crowley's day! - and, surprisingly, still today), the use of prostitution profits to fund other criminal enterprises, etc. - (It generally isn't the prostitute that is compiling the "exorbitant profits" of which he speaks but, rather, their pimps and the larger crime organizations.)
And he's saying that when sex is free and unencumbered by moral and community narrowness, this "attendant crime" will tend to disappear. Unlike England in his day (and many places still today), a man would not have to pay for sex (illegally, at great cost financially and, potentially, reputationally) in order to get laid.
On the other hand, if we're talking about a free society, unencumbered by either the criminalization of prostitution or social stigma on the matter, there's no reason an individual shouldn't be able to exchange sex (or any other skill) for money. The Thelemic view would be that it's all a personal decision. The current type of market would have dried up substantially, but different situations (and some old familiar ones) would still arise.
Quality, professional service could become as marketable as in any other field. Despite the fact that you know how to cook dinner for yourself (or have someone who loves you cook it for you), there's a major market for paying someone else cook dinner for one or both of you - either for convenience or relaxation or because they have a distinctive talent you can't easily get outside of a professional environment. (They're called "restaurants" and "chefs.") Analogize eating to sex and you can see the possibilities. OTOH, if restaurants were illegal then hidden, illegal, underground restaurants getting food from uncertain sources with no public health oversight (and fill in the blank on the rest) would be quite a different thing.
"I sort of understand what he is saying with this, but is this a condemnation of prostitution, or those who have sex with prostitutes, or a mere observation that if Thelema was practiced by all, prostitution would cease to exist ?"
Not exactly any of the above. It's a condemnation of the attendant crime, and of the social conditions that create such freaky insanity around so natural a thing as sex.
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Thanks for the fast response Jim! Always a pleasure to have you replying!
I'll read through the rest of it tomorrow (read the first paragraph), absolutely knackered. Need some sleep!
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A good deal, I believe, has to do with consolidation of wealth.
Take for example, how originally there was nothing which said a Priest of the Christian faith could not marry.
It was a political maneuver, to keep the wealth of the Church from disseminating amongst the people.
The same could be said in regards to the social stigma against homosexuality.
A man, who only engages in homosexual acts is not going to produce an heir.
The continuation of his genetic line considered part of his duty to the society and family which has provided for him.Thelema, being about the expression of the individual Will,
Unconcerned with maintaining a status-quo,
Opens one up to all venues of Self-Exploration and Expression
And in turn Liberation from social mores meant to maintain a non-existant ideal -
@Dara said
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Not even a new ideal... since archaeologists have discovered that our ancestors buried people who diverged from the gendered norm with all the honours of their gender preference intact.So I figure if some men and women were that rationally enlightened a few thousand years ago then we should be seriously putting a lid on the more unenlightened element in this day and age. Not to put too fine a point on it... and even from a viking.
"I never said anything about it being new
For some reason I thought of this little diddly:
My mother was a witch
She was burned alive!
Thank less little bitch
For all the tears I cried!Am I Evil?
Yes I am!
Am I Evil?
I am man!
Yes I am! -
@kasper81 said
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@SerpentSeed123 said
"? Crowley often slept with prostitutes (let's face it, it's much easier then having to woo your way into a ladies underwear), and he seemed to have no qualms with it, aside of what he said in the quote. What do you all think ?"is there any evidence he did? if so where?"
Throughout his diaries, published and unpublished. Read Confessions. Read John St. John.
This is aside from other historic records.
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@SerpentSeed123 said
"I'm slightly confused as to the Thelemite position on prostitution. In Liber Oz, we have the following:
*Man has the right to love as he will: "take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where, and with whom ye will." *
Then we have Crowley (?) saying that "Prostitution (with its attendant crimes) will tend to disappear, as it will cease to offer exorbitant profits to those who exploit it."
I sort of understand what he is saying with this, but is this a condemnation of prostitution, or those who have sex with prostitutes, or a mere observation that if Thelema was practiced by all, prostitution would cease to exist ? Crowley often slept with prostitutes (let's face it, it's much easier then having to woo your way into a ladies underwear), and he seemed to have no qualms with it, aside of what he said in the quote. What do you all think ?"I think that When AC was invisioning the impact that Thelema should have upon the world, he was stating his confidence that the conditions that drive a culture to have the station of prostitution would not exist in the way that it does now.
Thelema seems to dictate that a man will happily engage in worshiping his wife as an aspect of Her, and that because he consistantly does this, treating his lover like a beloved instead of a bitch, he will not need to seek else where because the one woman whom he mated with, will biollogically want to fuck his brains out, often, many times.....
And make him sandwhiches sometimes, because women do tend overall to act very nurturing and happy and all that after we.......and want to share sandwhiches.
There are to me, two differnt types of what prople call prostitutes,
Those who work it like a job....because it pays good
And those who do it out of a desire to sever.Those first ones are sad and scary, hurt and traped,
But the second ones strong and happy, kind and free.Societies all have different needs at different times, as do individuals. The Law of Thelema would imp,y upon a culture, a group of women who are. Extremely sexually satisfied, and the blessed men who love nothing more then to drink Amrita all night long.
Ac was I think really trying to bring about such a culture.
Love is the Law
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OK, I'm deleting the music discussion to get this back on topic.
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Prostitution is not a moral issue that as a Thelemite, i feel is of no ones business and is not for me to judge as being right or wrong for someone to do or take part in for themselves. This is something that is none of my business because it is interfering with the will of another individual....prostitution yes....
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christianity doesn't belong outside the middle east
RFLMAO
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@kasper81 said
" prostitution isn't wrong if it is the free choice of the sex worker to sell their particular services but i think if a single guy lacking in confidence thinks that having sex with a hooker will improve him in some way and make him better with the ladies per se then he is delusional he may as well keep on jacking off to porn (another form of prostitution) and save himself the money"
Thanks folks. I do agree Kasper that one has to be wary as to whether or not the prostitute is making a free choice, but who am I to know, or who is anyone to know why they are in the industry but they themselves ? I don't feel as if I should psychoanalyze each prostitute, and try to understand why she's in the industry. It's none of my business.
In the words of Rodney Orpheus: *"When you have the impulse to interfere with the way that others live their lives, you are not allowing them the liberty to follow their true wills." *
Only the individual can decide for themselves.
*" ... thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." *
I guess that the above goes for those who visit prostitutes. In regards to the lacking confidence thing, sometimes people just want relief without all the hassle of courting.
*"I don't pay them for sex. I pay them to leave" - Charlie Sheen *
Thank-you for the long, long ... long reply Dara. Made for pleasant reading. Now I've got to finish reading through everybody else's comments. I'll get there eventually!
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"When sex is free and I unencumbered by moral and community narrowness". Lol such as herpes, Gonorhea, Chancroid, Chlamydia , CMV , Molluscum, PID, Genital warts, Gonorrhea, Hepatitis B , Contagiusum, Syphillis, HIV and Aids ,HPV, intestinal parasites, pubic lice, scabies. Crowley was known to hurt many people in his life. There is right and wrong and is consequences to your actions, can't just do whatever you want. Sit in the clinic for an hour and try to discuss free love I dare you .
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And majority of prostitutes have been raped, and horrifically abused as children , might wanna look up the facts .
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@ACwroteAzoetiaAt19 said
"And majority of prostitutes have been raped, and horrifically abused as children , might wanna look up the facts ."
Might also want to consider varying cultural mores (across time and space)... What one declares abhorrent another embraces, who's to say which is 'right'.
93 93/93
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Well cultural mores have nothing to do with stds and HIV and aids . Doesn't matter ure specific cultural viewpoint, infection, disease, can be the result. Than there's pregnancy and complications with that. If sex was meant to be shared openly oh so beautiful lets just all screw, lol wouldn't be diseases related to the act.
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I just wanted to add even in a relationship condoms should be worn in my opinion, that way u can be a free and uneasy about ure relationship. If they sleep with someone else u can get out fast no hard feelings because u kept ureself protected from start. Any one that is in a committed relationship and not using protection is living in a fantasy world . Men and women sleep around every day . The true thelemite knows this and puts themselves first . Self protection is number one always .
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Although please don't use lubricated condoms they contain a dangerous cancer causing carcinogen which the masses don't know about I think phenyol but I forget I'd have to look it up
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It's benzene look it up ok nice day to all
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The STDs is enough reason for me not to sleep around. Sure, Crowley might have enjoyed getting them, but I think I would rather skip that part.