Prostitution: Yay, or Nay ?
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@SerpentSeed123 said
"I'm slightly confused as to the Thelemite position on prostitution. In Liber Oz, we have the following:
*Man has the right to love as he will: "take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where, and with whom ye will." *
Then we have Crowley (?) saying that "Prostitution (with its attendant crimes) will tend to disappear, as it will cease to offer exorbitant profits to those who exploit it."
I sort of understand what he is saying with this, but is this a condemnation of prostitution, or those who have sex with prostitutes, or a mere observation that if Thelema was practiced by all, prostitution would cease to exist ? Crowley often slept with prostitutes (let's face it, it's much easier then having to woo your way into a ladies underwear), and he seemed to have no qualms with it, aside of what he said in the quote. What do you all think ?"I think that When AC was invisioning the impact that Thelema should have upon the world, he was stating his confidence that the conditions that drive a culture to have the station of prostitution would not exist in the way that it does now.
Thelema seems to dictate that a man will happily engage in worshiping his wife as an aspect of Her, and that because he consistantly does this, treating his lover like a beloved instead of a bitch, he will not need to seek else where because the one woman whom he mated with, will biollogically want to fuck his brains out, often, many times.....
And make him sandwhiches sometimes, because women do tend overall to act very nurturing and happy and all that after we.......and want to share sandwhiches.
There are to me, two differnt types of what prople call prostitutes,
Those who work it like a job....because it pays good
And those who do it out of a desire to sever.Those first ones are sad and scary, hurt and traped,
But the second ones strong and happy, kind and free.Societies all have different needs at different times, as do individuals. The Law of Thelema would imp,y upon a culture, a group of women who are. Extremely sexually satisfied, and the blessed men who love nothing more then to drink Amrita all night long.
Ac was I think really trying to bring about such a culture.
Love is the Law
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OK, I'm deleting the music discussion to get this back on topic.
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Prostitution is not a moral issue that as a Thelemite, i feel is of no ones business and is not for me to judge as being right or wrong for someone to do or take part in for themselves. This is something that is none of my business because it is interfering with the will of another individual....prostitution yes....
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christianity doesn't belong outside the middle east
RFLMAO
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@kasper81 said
" prostitution isn't wrong if it is the free choice of the sex worker to sell their particular services but i think if a single guy lacking in confidence thinks that having sex with a hooker will improve him in some way and make him better with the ladies per se then he is delusional he may as well keep on jacking off to porn (another form of prostitution) and save himself the money"
Thanks folks. I do agree Kasper that one has to be wary as to whether or not the prostitute is making a free choice, but who am I to know, or who is anyone to know why they are in the industry but they themselves ? I don't feel as if I should psychoanalyze each prostitute, and try to understand why she's in the industry. It's none of my business.
In the words of Rodney Orpheus: *"When you have the impulse to interfere with the way that others live their lives, you are not allowing them the liberty to follow their true wills." *
Only the individual can decide for themselves.
*" ... thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." *
I guess that the above goes for those who visit prostitutes. In regards to the lacking confidence thing, sometimes people just want relief without all the hassle of courting.
*"I don't pay them for sex. I pay them to leave" - Charlie Sheen *
Thank-you for the long, long ... long reply Dara. Made for pleasant reading. Now I've got to finish reading through everybody else's comments. I'll get there eventually!
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"When sex is free and I unencumbered by moral and community narrowness". Lol such as herpes, Gonorhea, Chancroid, Chlamydia , CMV , Molluscum, PID, Genital warts, Gonorrhea, Hepatitis B , Contagiusum, Syphillis, HIV and Aids ,HPV, intestinal parasites, pubic lice, scabies. Crowley was known to hurt many people in his life. There is right and wrong and is consequences to your actions, can't just do whatever you want. Sit in the clinic for an hour and try to discuss free love I dare you .
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And majority of prostitutes have been raped, and horrifically abused as children , might wanna look up the facts .
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@ACwroteAzoetiaAt19 said
"And majority of prostitutes have been raped, and horrifically abused as children , might wanna look up the facts ."
Might also want to consider varying cultural mores (across time and space)... What one declares abhorrent another embraces, who's to say which is 'right'.
93 93/93
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Well cultural mores have nothing to do with stds and HIV and aids . Doesn't matter ure specific cultural viewpoint, infection, disease, can be the result. Than there's pregnancy and complications with that. If sex was meant to be shared openly oh so beautiful lets just all screw, lol wouldn't be diseases related to the act.
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I just wanted to add even in a relationship condoms should be worn in my opinion, that way u can be a free and uneasy about ure relationship. If they sleep with someone else u can get out fast no hard feelings because u kept ureself protected from start. Any one that is in a committed relationship and not using protection is living in a fantasy world . Men and women sleep around every day . The true thelemite knows this and puts themselves first . Self protection is number one always .
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Although please don't use lubricated condoms they contain a dangerous cancer causing carcinogen which the masses don't know about I think phenyol but I forget I'd have to look it up
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It's benzene look it up ok nice day to all
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The STDs is enough reason for me not to sleep around. Sure, Crowley might have enjoyed getting them, but I think I would rather skip that part.
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@ACwroteAzoetiaAt19 said
"Well cultural mores have nothing to do with stds and HIV and aids . Doesn't matter ure specific cultural viewpoint, infection, disease, can be the result. Than there's pregnancy and complications with that. If sex was meant to be shared openly oh so beautiful lets just all screw, lol wouldn't be diseases related to the act."
These problems are all solved by legalized prostitution governed by the same business laws (including health laws) as every other business. The problem is easily resolvable.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Crowley was really, really into sex. And he used it very deliberately as a magical operation, seemingly with anyone he could find to go along with him.
Diary entries from his Rex de Arte Regia (The King on the Royal Art) include a tremendous number of passages in which he records "workings" with prostitutes and others. It is a bit shocking, really, to a contemporary reader--and I'm no prude--to learn just how much time the Prophet of the New Aeon spent in sexual operations with woman he hired and used for this purpose. When I first saw this stuff, I frankly was rather stunned, even dismayed, by it all. It just seems so adolescent. Between his magical masturbating, Baphometic buggering and wizardly whoring, it's a wonder the guy had time to write.
But write he did and more. And viewed from afar, his operations--most frequently geared toward establishment of Thelemic law or supporting that aim--can maybe, perhaps, charitably, I guess, somehow be seen as having helped to propel his opus thus far, into 2013 (and beyond), which is, of course, a tremendous historic uber-feat.
Below are a few exemplars, picked at random from Crowley's explicit diary entries about prostitutes. None is particularly noteworthy, they are just examples of the kind of things he wrote regarding his experiences with whores. I found these by flipping pages until I spotted a new name. He used many of them repeatedly. Keeping with the original post, I've not bothered to include similar entries regarding manibus plenis (full hands) or Xenos en to stomati Basileos (a stranger in the mouth of the King), but you get the drift.
I am quoting these because I think anyone who fashions herself a Thelemite needs to come to grips with the man who started it all. Aspirants can easily find the exalted Class A material online, but not the more salacious stuff. Because of this, I think we can be lulled into an euphemistic view of the kind of person, judged outwardly, Mr. Crowley was in his time, and it's similarly easy to lose sight of how his behavior would be judged by the standards we apply (particularly to spiritual leaders) today. It serves none of us well who seek to advance the Thelemic current to confront this information unexpectedly.
"6 Sept. Christine Rosalie Byrne ("Peggy Marchmont") Picadilly prostitute.
Object: Knowledge of the Mysteries of the IX and power to express the same.
The girl is a sturdy bitch of 16 or so. The orgie lasted with rare and brief intervals from 11 a.m. to 10 p.m. and the ceremony was thrice performed. I was not at all exhausted and could have gone on all night. Though she was hard up, she refused even a friendly present.
Result: Success complete, since I wrote De Arte Magica; De Homunculo; De Natura Deorum; De Nuptiis Secretis Deorum com Hominibus in which will be found very great wisdom of the Gods on all this matter...""14 Nov. 10.30 p.m. to 11.30 p.m. Elsie Edwards. Obese Irish prostitute of maternal Taurus type. 3 dollars.
Object: Thanksgiving. The Glory of the sacred [Tau] and the Establish of the Holy Kingdom in this country [America].
The unattractiveness of the assistant made the operation difficult. But it was necessary to begin somehow and so far New York has shown me none of its sex side. May the Lord grant me favor in this also...."" 23 Nov. Grace Harris. [Venus] in [Libra] type, about 22. Same class and color as [another prostitute mentioned in diary].
Object. Immediate money. (Interpreted as from an unexpected source before Sunday; a wish contrary to all probability.)
The Operation was good as to concentration, mediocre orgiastically. Also the sense of sacramentalism was not strong.
Result: (I am abstaining most carefully from any act that might result naturally in my getting money.)
25 Nov. A letter came saying [800 pounds] was being found for me. But does this count?""16 Jan. 9.12 p.m. Weather like a fine day in May. Light of gas stove.
Margaret Pitcher. A young, pretty-stupid wide-mouthed flat-faced slim-bodied harlotry. Fair hair. Fine fat juicy Yoni.
Object: Money. I invoked Ic-zod-heh-ca at the same time, thinking thus to propitiate the gnomes. And I offer him also a portion of the Sacrament.
The ceremony was not good, as the girl was even more concentrated than I on the object of the Operation. But the Elixir was copious, well-formed, and of very pleasing quality. It was a fairly orgiastic rite, considering all."" 3 May 10.52 p.m. A cool night after a warm day. Medium gaslight.
Helen Marshall. Irish-American prostitute. Taurus rising. Beautiful lazy type. Not actually passionate or perverse. A cheerful comfortable girl.
Object. Wisdom.
The Operation was not very orgiastic, the control not violent. But the Elixir was very well formed.
Result: [Not described].""8 May 8.178 p.m. Gaslight. Very warm.
Viola. Hideous taurine doped prostitute. Sagittarius rising, probably in Pisces.
Object: A mate, o Babalon, if Thou Lovest me!
The Operation was not so poor as anticipated, though it was a typically bad one. The Elixir was admirable, well-formed in every way.
Result: ...almost the next day I met one, H., with whom I fell violently in love."" 23 May 9.30 p.m. Moonlight. Night clear and cool after a fine breezy day with some cloud.
Marie Low, young rather pretty negress of the prostitute class. In manu Dominae [trans. "In the hand of the lady."]
Object: Wisdom.
The Operation was orgiastic enough under the poor conditions. The Elixir was very copious and of magnificent quality.
Result: [Not described]."It goes on, and on and on and on like this.....
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Jim if it was completely professional with std tests and security and protection for the male and female workers than yes this would be ok. Legalize it but it must be profesional and safe this will take crime and drugs out of it. At kasper lol spoken like a twenty year old yes I went off topic but once uve been on this planet longer u won't be so naive about relationships.
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Prostitution -- like most consensual crimes -- is legal if you have enough money to afford it. And, of course, the good sense to be discreet about it. Escort services are one example...
Like most "moral" issues, they only apply to the class-consciousness that believe the fetters are actually there. I think it really boils down to an income inequality issue, but many people disguise it in their brain as some sort of ethical nonsense. Oh, and there's that whole oxytocin business, too.
Sex on demand is not an issue if your bank account is large enough. The laws seem to apply to the ones that are not able to afford more discreet services...
Anyway:
There is no law beyond Do who thou wilt.
Let's face it -- monogamy, dating, etc. can sometimes be an excuse for "legal" prostitution. Sex in exchange for goods and services could apply to many marriages. And "friends with benefits" does not just refer to coitus -- sometimes, it's just a matter of picking up the bill for sushi and sake before "dessert."
@ David -- thanks for those excerpts! Would Crowley have kept an archive if he had an Iphone? Methinks his money magick would have taken on a whole new ineffable light!
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@ACwroteAzoetiaAt19 said
"@Jim if it was completely professional with std tests and security and protection for the male and female workers than yes this would be ok. Legalize it but it must be profesional and safe this will take crime and drugs out of it. At kasper lol spoken like a twenty year old yes I went off topic but once uve been on this planet longer u won't be so naive about relationships."
That would be exactly the idea.
Ever hear of an organization called C.O.Y.OT.E.? (Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics.) It was the successor of W.H.O. (Whores, Housewives & Others). I had a long lunch with Margot St. James sometime in the late '70s at a 4S conference where we were both speaking and, though the basic idea had been clear to me before, she really nailed the point. Laws against prostitution are all wrong for all sorts of reasons that I'm sure I don't have to itemize. Her activism in Rhode Island centered on both civil rights and discriminatory prosecution angles, and she was credited with ending the criminalization of prostitution in Rhode Island for 30 years.
