Thelema and death
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Thelema does not seem to have one prevailing doctrine or theory about death.
Perhaps because Thelema is not a (conventional, at least) religion?
So I wanted to start a thread where everyone could just say a little bit about what they believe happens. Perhaps this belief is motivated by a personal experience? Does it require faith or can it be demonstrated? Is it rooted in your personal interpretation of Liber Al? Is it consistent with your view of how the universe seems to function?
To me, reincarnation, like most magicians. I don't see how the Universe can work properly without it. At least two Magi have said it's true. (I don't think Liber Legis has anything to back it up, besides perhaps equaling Ankh-af-na-khonsu with Crowley.)
I don't really believe in a heaven or a hell. I think that for my identity, my personality, everything I currently consider "me", that's it. You die and life continues on until the universe ends.
I don't think any Thelemite in their right mind would believe in heaven and hell. "You die and life continues on" — now that you're right on. LMAO
Conceivably there may be a state of pure energy-existence, which is constantly creating and sustaining this universe (or giving the illusion of such). We can't pretend to know anything about the motives or outcome of that... hell, we can barely detect such a thing. The only thing we really know for sure is that the universe is here.
Wouldn't opening up to Yetzirah and Briah put you in touch with such a "state"?
I don't expect all the answers to be made in my lifetime.
You won't really need to if you attain.
I've had OBE's, and near death experiences, etc... I've experienced funny things in these states. I've experienced deja vu, and had images come to mind that seemed very real... However, I've never once concluded that this is evidence for anything definitive.
You are right to be a skeptic, but this seems a bit of a stretch.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"LOL, I meant that life continues on in this physical universe. How many people have you known that have passed away? Did the universe collapse on that day? It will still be here when your dead too."
Hahaha yes, I know, just kidding. But it was obvious either way.
(To answer the question, if they died the way you propose, then yes, the universe collapsed for them, which for them, is the same as the universe collapsing for everyone.)"Perhaps this is so, but you are still having these experiences via the brain... and when that dies there is no instrument to be perceiving anything... there is no "you" left to be having the experience. We experience these states, and intellectualize them while we are alive... they are not like physical places that we travel to."
Perhaps. Like they say, the idea of death is abolished in samadhi. (I particularly wouldn't mind if we were nothing but physical creatures. My goals would remain the same.)
And again, you're right on — they are not physical places that we travel to.
"Even if I progress, the world will sill want to know practical things. Like how to cure disease, or why black holes behave as they do."
Sure, sure. (Though the world "needs" to attain, too.)
"It would be a stretch to assume that anything I dream, or day dream, or imagine, or whatever could mean anything besides the very obvious."
It wouldn't, because it's anything but obvious. You were very careful to only use the words "dream" and "imagine", but you know there's more to it than that. Even if you aren't satisfied yet.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Frater Potater said
"Besides being mentioned a few times in the Book of the Law, Thelema does not seem to have one prevailing doctrine or theory about death."
That depends on whether you are considering the teachings of Crowley and every major Thelemic teacher descending directly from him, or alternate views of very recent people.
Crowley was clear - Germer was clear - Meral was clear - and what they taught is what matches my experience: Reincarnation the rule (but not without exceptions).
"Perhaps this belief is motivated by a personal experience?"
Yes.
And, of course, that can be interpreted in various ways. When one stays in one's head, one can propose all sorts of theories that alternately explain the same phenomena. Ultimately, though, all we have to go on is direct experience, and my direct experience (and that of others I've named) is that prior leaves feel as continuous as any string of lives in my present incarnation.
This became even less theoretical to me after crossing the Path of Shiyn (on the A.'.A.'. scale; in other words, part way through myt 2=9 stage). At that point, it became relatively normal to see myself in four-dimensional terms,
simultaneously" existing at all points in time and "intersecting" 3-D reality at multiple distinct points."Does it require faith or can it be demonstrated?"
I probably use "faith" differently than you do. You probably mean "believing in the absence of any evidence," and I'd say No to that.
I normally use "faith" to mean the medium of direct perception by Neshamah (superconsciousness). To that I'd say, yes, that's exactly what it takes.
"Is it rooted in your personal interpretation of Liber Al?"
Nope.
"Is it consistent with your view of how the universe seems to function?"
My view of "how the universe seems to function" was shaped, in part, by these experiences. Therefore: By now, yes.
"I think that for my identity, my personality, everything I currently consider "me", that's it."
Yes! Exactly! That's the trivial stuff. That's not the part that persists. What you "currently consider 'me'" is your current act (the metaphor is often used that it is a current dream) - its evaporation doesn't extinguish the dreamer.
"You die and life goes on until the universe ends. The main reason I feel this way, is because there isn't a lot of scientific evidence to suggest there is much more to it than that."
Is that really where you would expect to find evidence of phenomena not dependent on the physical universe?
At the ame time, I respect that you are basing your views on your present experience. As I said above, ultimately that's all we have to go on. I totally side with Vivekananda's suggest that, until one has direct experience of God, it's better to be an atheist than a hypocrite.
"According to this view I would say we are like little bubbles that appear on a bar of soap... popping up and disappearing so quickly."
Those bubbles are formed by air occupying a suitable "body" (made of thin soap film). The bubble popping doesn't extinguish the air itself, which goes on to inhabit uncountable structures and enter into innumerable combinations.
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@Frater Potater said
"A lot of thelemites I know seem to believe in some form of reincarnation.
I don't ... The main reason I feel this way, is because there isn't a lot of scientific evidence to suggest there is much more to it than that."Have you looked into the work of Ian Stevenson ? Very interesting stuff, indeed.
"in scores of cases Stevenson could find no alternative explanation for the phenomena he recorded. One boy in Beirut described having been a mechanic who died after being hit by a car. According to Schroder, witnesses said the boy offered the name of the driver, the location of the accident, and the names of the dead man's sisters, parents and cousins. The details apparently matched the life of a man who had died before the boy was born, and who, Stevenson was told, was unconnected to the boy's family."
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"So I wanted to start a thread where everyone could just say a little bit about what they believe happens. Perhaps this belief is motivated by a personal experience? Does it require faith or can it be demonstrated? Is it rooted in your personal interpretation of Liber Al? Is it consistent with your view of how the universe seems to function?"
I think that what happens when you die is different for everyone, and it depends upon how that person lived.
have you seen the movie "what Dreams May Come?". One of the better movies that deal with the topic of death, with keen insight into suicide. I also just got do e with a weekend watching a newer movie called "Source Code" which is fantastic on so many levels. That later one is very close to my own understanding of time and space, life and death, and Love and will.
I used to not care if I lived or died. I even attempted suicide as a teen. I know that that state of mind for me, was not so much that I believed in a better place, or that my energy would go to source, or that I would be reborn, I was hell bent on the fact that the world was a F*** up place and I didn't want to participate in it, to take on responsibilities. ie get a job, pay taxes, shop at the big box store.
I didn't care if theere was anything else, I didn't want any existence.
It was my bucking at these perceived responsibilities, and that I was willing to do my part to tear it all down by death that I experienced an phenomena which basically was brought about because I was given Liber Al. Reading the book changed me. I went from one week trying to toss in the towel, to the next week ready to kick anyones arse who tried to tell me what to do and restrict me.
I could give a really cool story about it all, prolly be way to long and you would stop reading...so I won't.
I have seen though, over the years how Death has everything to do with responsibility, how it is perceived, how it is carried out, how much one has or hasn't.....I sometimes think that people who spend time thinking about what happens when they die, if they have a soul, or a spirit, or or worm food, need to get out of themselves to find truth.
When I leave my kids, and kiss them goodbye I do it fully understanding that we may never meet again. If I died, are they going to be ok? Will they be fed, will they have some one to take care of them.....Ect Ect.
I don't care what happens to my energy, my spirit, my soul......I want to do everything I can to fulfill my agreements and responsibilities in this world.
I watched one of my most beloved kin die this year, several times, (medical malpractices) and be brought back. I was challenged by Her children to pull the plug and kill her, even though she was never medically unhealable....the kids wanted her dead.
But since I had the Health care proxy Ect, I never made a call and to this day my "momma" says she owes her life to me. At times I feel a great responsibility to her, to her life she has
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My opinion is that:
(a) while the evidence for reincarnation isn't as conclusive as some of our more solid experimental-based scientific theories, the many cases of children offering up "memories" of past lives (with independently verified details that the children would not otherwise have known) require some kind of explanation other than a simple, strict materialist world-view. Whether the explanation is some actual reincarnation in the sense of an individual passing nearly intact into a new body, or an ESP-style psychic link, or something else is kind of a moot point. The children often have relevant birth marks; there's a lesson, or a trauma, or some other emotional impact in the child's life; etc. The explanation for the phenomena does nothing to change the approach of Thelemic spiritual teachers, in bringing meaning to the memory, and using it to chart a course toward spiritual progress. In that sense, it's no different than any of the other memories that are with us always. It's our job to find a purpose for them, to put them in service to the Great Work.
(b) whether or not reincarnation is completely factual, it's a pretty healthy belief system. The whole belief in an extra-terrestrial afterlife, or an apocalyptic scenario, is a real responsibility killer. If the world's ending, or what happens here doesn't matter because you're going to go to heaven when you die, then it really tends to dampen your motivation to make the best of this world. If you believe that you'll be reincarnating, you have a lot more invested in making long-term progress.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"If you believe that you'll be reincarnating, you have a lot more invested in making long-term progress."
I can attest to that. It's the single most effective means of coercing myself into dealing with things that I would otherwise ignore for the remainder of this life (read as: personal growth). I use "well, if I'll have to deal with it in another life, I might as well deal with it in this one" as a personal motivator.
Reincarnation is also currently the only framework in which I can make sense of my own progress, as I haven't really done anything in this incarnation that explains (to me) my initiation. It appears to be the culmination of work done in prior lives, not just this one. (I didn't do much in this life except run away from it.)
I can't prove any of this, but it makes more sense to me than a theory that doesn't include reincarnation.
I see my personality in this life as a reaction to the momentum that I seem to have built up in prior incarnations... something like, "oh, I'm born and already moving in a certain direction... that direction is scary, so I'm going to resist it."
93, 93/93.
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For me, Thelema and magick have been instrumental in allowing me to focus on how I live my life instead expending resources worrying about what's going to happen when it's over. Accepting that I am here to know and do my Will has lead me to a comfortable skepticism about death in a remarkably short period of time. I've had some experiences in the past few months that seem to be pointing to reincarnation and I'm completely open to that, if it's helpful, but right now I don't know and I don't really give a damn -- and it is such a relief.
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@Ash said
"I see my personality in this life as a reaction to the momentum that I seem to have built up in prior incarnations... something like, "oh, I'm born and already moving in a certain direction... that direction is scary, so I'm going to resist it.""
I've been thinking about this sentence for the last half hour. It's a really good way of expressing a lot of what I've been thinking about lately concerning the experiences I referenced in my post above. I'm not sure if you would agree, but I would equate the momentum from prior lives with my Will. For me, beginning to get a sense of what my Will is and how I am to go about doing it has been a rather harrowing experience. Not only is it forcing me to rethink large portions of my world view and my self image, but it also turns out that my ego is not at all happy with these developments. I had built up over the years a sense of who I was and what it would mean for my life to be successful -- and I was wrong. In light of your comment, I wonder if the ego resisting in this way isn't somehow necessary to the process. It feels like it would have to be, but I can't quite put my finger on why that would be so. -
@Pattana Gita said
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Outsiders? Insiders? Its all the same to me.In the biblical account of building the temple of solomon there is an entrance way or porch as part of the sacred space. This porch contained two doors (placed sequentially), and if you stood in the porch and looked one way then you saw the exit door but standing the other direction and you saw the entrance door - but only at night time were the doors closed. During the day both doors stood open. The function of the porch seems to one that allow a pause for the enterer to prepare himself to meet the God of the House, and likewise, ready himself to leave his Father's House upon the exit a different man. But somehow, during all that twoing and frowing in and out of the temple he'd managed to leave a small part of himself eternally in the portico - neither inside or outside, whether by day or by night. And so did everybody else.
Have a good Saturnalia tomorrow.
"Yet again you miss the point, focused on the smallness of things instead. How would someone revealing they knew the mnemonic to the secret that reveals the combination prove anything to you when you already called it a guess? There's a difference between a nay-sayer and a skeptic.
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Frater Potater:
"So I wanted to start a thread where everyone could just say a little bit about what they believe happens. Perhaps this belief is motivated by a personal experience? Does it require faith or can it be demonstrated? Is it rooted in your personal interpretation of Liber Al? Is it consistent with your view of how the universe seems to function?
"I love this question and query for very personal reasons this time of year so thank you for the nice solstice tease. I love the two distinguishable points of view expressed here so far - one from a more materialistic framework and the other a more mystical framework. There is I believe a beautiful dialectic occurring there - which is of itself somewhat more profound than the mystery of death - so I thought I would share my thoughts if you do not mind.
Frater - you mention in quite clear and I believe very insightful terms that the only certainty we can have on the 'matter' is that the physical universe itself exists, one and for all - and will continue to exist after each and every individual extinction of life. Existence exists! This gives us a certainty, for sure, and this certainty is strong enough to become the standard of certainty we have on potentially any other subject matter.
This of course is juxtaposed against the communities' prevailing point of view, that of course the 'self' or 'point of experience' is not material, at least not in any sense that can be measurable by the hard sciences or mapped like hard mathematics - and thus gives the confirmation about the universe not by it's native ability to gather and organize information but by the fact that it can experience, 'live and re-live' that data - and that the point of experience is the point of entry into the mysteries of death.
The larger mystery I believe this discussion somewhat highlights - that which we all can come to see for certain.
What occurs at the moment of death from the point of experience is the great mystery - and the great mystery of death is somewhat equal to the great mystery of self. At the point of death, all the information that is experienced by the point becomes shut off from the world, there is no feedback, the experience of death becomes an experience of unique information that only the dying one has access to. Mystery for all of us, yet now very true to the person dying. So the mystery of death is the last question that gets answered the moment of individual passing.
It is assumed that faced with such a mystery, there would be an equal or greater number of questions regarding what happens at the moment of death - and if we use the standard of certainty that I believe is highlighted in frater potater's post - we dont have the same quality of certainty regarding 'experience' after death than we do as the complete and utter certainty of the experience of life - but what we can be certain about is that we exist. Anything other than that is a false idea.
As the self encounters any truly mysterious phenomenon, be it an object or profound experience whose nature allows it impossible to collect and most importantly share much objective data about it - it will produce 'false' ideas about the mystery. Since the mystery has the nature it has, the only information we can project on the mystery is a perfect projection of our inner lives, our experience with the ideas we have about it.
This experience, or point of experience - also exists, and we can confirm this with absolute certainty, yet the materialistic sciences are bound by their own contraints into telling us much about them. The world of ideas about death are themselves an almost complete confirmation of the certainty of existence that appears to transcend the physical realms. We know ideas exists yet science can find no proof of their existence either.
And the nature of ideas and the experience about them and the very real certainty that the shared, collective and physical universe allows us are - I believe, a perfect reflection of the relationship between Nuit and Hadit in Liber Al vel Legis.
So while i can say that i personally believe in the 'continuity of existence' and that sentient beings are immortal beings, I know that is just my own personal idea about the mystery of self and death that by it's very nature will become extinguished and is false - yet my personal idea about death somehow gives me personal certainty of my own continued existence.
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93 All,
If one masters travelling outside their body, and can observe the objective - realtime events of others isn't this proof of a reality of life outside the physical body? I believe AC mentions strengthening the body of light so that it could even move physical objects, another bit of evidence for a reality outside our physical bodies it would seem.
My daughter at age 5 casually asked me once, as if it were normal, "remember when I was floating over you and mommy at the park, by the ducks before I was born?" For years she elaborated on it, remembering floating above us, describing our first date, which I had never mentioned, at least not in any detail. To me, that's my proof, along with others not knowing about my body of light trials, seeing a whitish cloud and sensing it was me. When asked about it, I produced my journal detailing my experience of seeming to visit them! Same time and date! Another was my attempt at healing an aunt on her deathbed, who was a devote xtian, the next morning she told everyone she saw "Jesus" in her room pouring white light into her stomach, the very thing I was doing! Proof to me.
I feel magick at some point will only prove it to the individual through direct experience.
93 93/93
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Death!
I may wager to say Death is not prominent in Thelema as it is revealed to be (or re-veiled as) transformation.
The leaving behind of old ways and the embracing of some thing so new there is no frame of reference.I accept the notion of the transmigration of the soul in so far as goes its usefulness of modeling a non-linear phenomenon in a linear fashion.
In less esoteric terms, I recognize my being as composed of various parts collected from across the vast expanses of time & space.In regards to what occurs upon reaching the functional limits of ones current incarnation, I feel that is highly dependent upon the individual.
A person, of True Faith, I have no reason to doubt is accepted into Heaven,
Or cast down into Hell depending on the nature of the person discussed. -
*Briefly, the orthodox theory as put forth by H.P.B. is that one works off one's Karma after death in Devachan, or Kama Loka, or some such place; when the balance is exhausted, one may come back to earth, or in some other way carry on the Great Work. One theory—see Opus Lutetianum, the Paris Working—says that when one has quite finished with Earth-problems, one is promoted to Venus, where "bodies" are liquid, and thence to Mercury, where they are gaseous, finally to the Sun, where they are composed of pure Fire. Eliphaz Lévi says: "In the Suns we remember; in the planets we forget."
Most of this is he merest speculation, useless and possibly harmful; but I don't mind relaxing occasionally to that extent.
What is important is the Oath.
One who is vowed to the A∴A∴'s Mission for Mankind, who takes it dead seriously, and who will be neither frightened nor bored from Its majestic purpose, may at any time bind himself by an Oath to reject the rewards of Devachan, and reincarnate immediately again and again. By "immediately" is meant about 6 months before the birth of the new Adept, about 3 months after his last death. It depends to some extent, no doubt, on whether he can find a suitable vehicle. Presumably he will make some sort of preparation while still alive. It seems that I personally must have taken this Oath quite a long while ago; for the Incarnations which I actually remember leave very few gaps to be filled in the last dozen centuries or so.
Now, dear sister, I don't like this letter at all, and I am sorry that I had to write it. For most of these statements are insusceptible of proof.
And yet I feel their truth much more strongly than I have ventured to express. How many times have I warned you against "feelings?"*
-- from Chap XLVII, Magick Without Tears.
Hahaha! What is he trying to say here?
I've felt truth before, too. Usually during orgasm, energized enthusiasm, and, of course, Silence. And truth is relative.
Maybe the point here is that the belief is used by the magician as a tool, and that one is not dominated by their ideas of what seems to fit in their limited view of teleology...?
But, then again...
*I. THE PASSIONS, ETC.
I. Since the ultimate truth of teleology is unknown, all codes of morality are arbitrary.
II. Therefore the student has no concern with ethics as such.
III. He is consequently free 'to do his duty in that state of life to which it has pleased God to call him.'
II. THE REASON
I. Since truth is supra-rational, any rational statement is false.
II. Let the student than contradict every proposition that presents itself to him.
III. Rational ideas being thus expelled from the mind, there is room for the apprehension of spiritual truth.It should be remarked that this does not destroy the validity of reasonings on their own plane.
III. THE SPIRITUAL SENSORIUM
I. Man being a finite being, he is incapable of apprehending the infinite. Nor does his communion with infinite being (true or false) alter this fact.
II. Let then the student contradict every vision and refuse to enjoy it; first, because there is certainly another vision possible of precisely contradictory nature; secondly, because though he is God, he is also a man upon an insignificant planet.
Being thus equilibrated laterally and vertically, it may be that, either by affirmation or denial of all these things together, he may attain the supreme trance.*It seems that Crowley could and would contradict any belief that he would have; at least, that's what his postcards would have his probationers do...hard to say what part of him actually believed in reincarnation...but we surely are welcome to speculate...
Ultimately, "I" don't believe that there is anything objectively substantial with any afterlife theory. All that is objectively "man" is locked up in this small verse.
*Mind is a disease of semen.
All that a man is or may be is hidden therein.
Bodily functions are parts of the machine; silent, unless in dis-ease.
This "I" persisteth not, posteth not through generations, changeth momently, finally is dead.
Therefore is man only himself when lost to himself in The Charioting.
*But, of course, subjectively -- a frilly, nice pair of pearly gates can seem prettier than a smoky death to "I". In any event, it seems to cause less trouble to understand why we set up our images the way we do.
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@Frater 639 said
"It seems that Crowley could and would contradict any belief that he would have; at least, that's what his postcards would have his probationers do...hard to say what part of him actually believed in reincarnation...but we surely are welcome to speculate..."
The thing is all that is made up fot you to choose. Have anybody did seen Enter the Void, the Gaspar Noe movie? The most would think that the director believes in reincarnation and that his film his a prove of his beliefs, but he himself claims being interviewed that he don´t believe in reincarnation (in the movie there are in fact some details for that, though). The thing is: why to express some point of view implies that one is "marriaged" with that vision? Does one cannot have many differents point of view in mind? Does that have to be a "contradiction"?