Finding my True Will
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@Takamba said
"[Edit: PS. Nowhere in the Book of the Law does it mention "True Will."]"
Yeah, but the guy who invented Thelema -- Aleister Crowley -- created and defined that term in a very specific way. If one is interested in practicing Thelema, and doing it intelligently, one needs to know what it requires and how to do it. Merely guessing or merely trusting what someone else says isn't going to cut it, unless one is looking for some kind of religion.
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@Los said
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But this thread is in the context of someone trying to figure out how to discover his True Will.""How?" is a great question. I was demonstrating that when one stops and asks, "why?" one has stopped "doing." If one has an answer for "why" other than "it is my nature, it is my self, it is my will," then the "will" is naught. It is certainly not "True."
The belief in a "True Will" has a lot of danger to it. Some seem to view it as some sort of ordained destiny, from on high, previously determined. Instead, I recommend we think in nautical terms, true north, true east. Direct (True) Will. You do not "discover" this, you adhere to it.
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@Takamba said
""How?" is a great question. I was demonstrating that when one stops and asks, "why?" one has stopped "doing." If one has an answer for "why" other than "it is my nature, it is my self, it is my will," then the "will" is naught. It is certainly not "True.""
Well, yeah. A person's will is a person's will. There's no "why" to it. But if someone wants to do something toward a certain end -- such as, for example, discover the True Will in the first place -- then we would expect that the person (if he wants to practice intelligently) would ask critical questions of practices: what they supposedly accomplish, why he would think they actually do accomplish these things, and how he tells.
"The belief in a "True Will" has a lot of danger to it. Some seem to view it as some sort of ordained destiny, from on high, previously determined. Instead, I recommend we think in nautical terms, true north, true east. Direct (True) Will. You do not "discover" this, you adhere to it."
True Will is most definitely not some preordained path. It is -- to oversimplify a bit -- what a person would naturally do if his mind would stop telling him that he "should" be doing something else "because" of some silly reason (such as "because it's the right thing to do" or "because it's for the good of humanity!" or "because you're such-and-such kind of person").
I do think that True Will has to be discovered because our thoughts, emotions, feelings, intuitions, etc. "veil" the True Will from us. We discover (literally dis-cover, remove the covering from) our True Wills by increasing our powers of observation and learning to see "through" the illusions of our minds, exactly as I explained earlier in the thread.
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@Los said
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"The belief in a "True Will" has a lot of danger to it. Some seem to view it as some sort of ordained destiny, from on high, previously determined. Instead, I recommend we think in nautical terms, true north, true east. Direct (True) Will. You do not "discover" this, you adhere to it."
"Exactly. Why ask why? Just a swift "How" on the butt and a stern "Do" on the back. Ask after, when the data is collected, "Did or did not?" and learn from that.
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@Takamba said
"Exactly. Why ask why? Just a swift "How" on the butt and a stern "Do" on the back. Ask after, when the data is collected, "Did or did not?" and learn from that."
Because before a person can "adhere" to the True Will, "discover" it, or do anything with it, that person has to know what it is and how to go about working with it. And the person needs to have specific, intelligent, coherent, and demonstrable answers to those questions if he wants to do an intelligent job of attaining.
That's why you ask why. Just telling an aspirant "Go out and do it" tells them absolutely nothing and is incredibly unhelpful.
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@ Los
I find my quotation of "The word of Sin is Restriction" entirely relevant to your motivations in attempting to dissuade others from using ritual to discover their True Will.
To me, you seem to weave your words together in such a way that basically attempts to restrict others from participating in, or even experimenting with, ritual's power to help them discover their True Will unless they *a priori *agree with you that it's all just bullshit anyway.
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@Aleister Crowley in The Book of Lies said
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PILGRIM-TALKO thou that settest out upon The Path, false is the Phantom that thou seekest. When thou hast it thou shalt know all bitterness, thy teeth fixed in the Sodom-Apple. Thus hast thou been lured along That Path, whose terror else had driven thee far away. O thou that stridest upon the middle of The Path, no phantoms mock thee. For the stride's sake thou stridest. Thus art thou lured along That Path, whose fascina- tion else had driven thee far away. O thou that drawest toward the End of The Path, effort is no more. Faster and faster dos thou fall; thy weariness is changed into Ineffable Rest. For there is not Thou upon That Path: thou hast become The Way."
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@Bereshith said
"To me, you seem to weave your words together in such a way that basically attempts to restrict others from participating in, or even experimenting with, ritual's power to help them discover their True Will unless they *a priori *agree with you that it's all just bullshit anyway."
As I just explained, it's not "restriction" to encourage people to ask themselves critical questions about their practice.
For example, I suppose that you think ritual has "power" to "help [people] discover their True Will." So -- since this thread is about discovering the True Will -- how about you tell us exactly why you think that ritual actually does do this?
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@Los said
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@Bereshith said
"To me, you seem to weave your words together in such a way that basically attempts to restrict others from participating in, or even experimenting with, ritual's power to help them discover their True Will unless they *a priori *agree with you that it's all just bullshit anyway."As I just explained, it's not "restriction" to encourage people to ask themselves critical questions about their practice.
For example, I suppose that you think ritual has "power" to "help [people] discover their True Will." So -- since this thread is about discovering the True Will -- how about you tell us exactly why you think that ritual actually does do this?"
In my experience, such intentional symbolic actions consciously stimulate and precisely focus an internal dialogue that carries on beyond the act of the ritual itself.
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@Bereshith said
"In my experience, such intentional symbolic actions consciously stimulate and precisely focus an internal dialogue that carries on beyond the act of the ritual itself."
Ok, and they may well do this, depending on what you mean. If you mean that the ritual summons up certain kinds of thoughts that stay with you during the day and encourage you to think about them, I'd agree that rituals do that. Of course, lots of activities have that result. For example, watching an episode of Breaking Bad also "stimulates" and "focus[es]" an inner dialogue, and it usually stays with the viewer long after the episode is over.
And that brings me to my point: just because something "stimulates" an "inner dialogue" doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the True Will or brings a person any closer to discovering the True Will. So what, precisely, do you think this "inner dialogue" has to do with the True Will and how does it enable you to uncover that Will?
The more specific your answer, the better (especially for you, since answering these questions is primarily going to help you do the work).
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@Los said
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The more specific your answer, the better (especially for you, since answering these questions is primarily going to help you do the work)."
actually, the more you go about searching for this answers intellectually, the more you are mentally masturbating, and it will not help you to DO the work. the thing that does help to do the work is - doing the work, not thinking incessantly about doing it 
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@danica said
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@Los said
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The more specific your answer, the better (especially for you, since answering these questions is primarily going to help you do the work)." actually, the more you go about searching for this answers intellectually, the more you are mentally masturbating, and it will not help you to DO the work. the thing that does help to do the work is - doing the work, not thinking incessantly about doing it "While the actual work itself requires the individual to turn off the mind (temporarily) in order to observe the True Will apart from the distorting influences of the mind, one needs to have a very clear grasp on exactly what one is trying to do and how to do it in the first place (along with the criteria for judging success). Otherwise, one won't know what to do, what to look for, and one won't know how to tell that the work has been a success.
What you're suggesting is that not knowing what you're doing is actually beneficial. I can't think of an approach more backwards or counterproductive. While I'm sure this egalitarian approach is very appealing to people who don't know anything about the subject -- since the approach implies that they don't have to learn anything, and it actually puts them on a higher level than people who actually do know something about the subject -- I dispute that it's true.
Imagine if we taught any other subject by discouraging people from learning about how to do it. What if we trained new and upcoming engineers by telling them to stop "mentally masturbating" and just start building bridges already! Enouraging people not to think too hard about their chosen subject of study is just a bad idea, regardless of the subject.
And -- just to be clear -- I'm criticizing ideas, not attacking any individual.
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@Los said
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@danica said
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@Los said
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The more specific your answer, the better (especially for you, since answering these questions is primarily going to help you do the work)." actually, the more you go about searching for this answers intellectually, the more you are mentally masturbating, and it will not help you to DO the work. the thing that does help to do the work is - doing the work, not thinking incessantly about doing it "... the actual work itself requires the individual to turn off the mind (temporarily) in order to observe the True Will apart from the distorting influences of the mind.."
no, not necessarily turn it of, but simply don't allow it to lead.
just being there and observing is fine enough task for the mind in mystical and magickal practices.@Los said
"What you're suggesting is that not knowing what you're doing is actually beneficial. "
I'm not suggesting that. I simply say that there's a difference between knowing and doing, and you can substantially enhance your knowing by engaging in the doing, while by thinking alone you can get only - a thought-result. (it's not a good or bad thing per se, but it's partial regarding the whole of the nature of human being)
@Los said
"And -- just to be clear -- I'm criticizing ideas, not attacking any individual."
yes, yes, I gathered that much -
@Los said
"One needs to have a very clear grasp on exactly what one is trying to do and how to do it in the first place (along with the criteria for judging success). Otherwise, one won't know what to do, what to look for, and one won't know how to tell that the work has been a success.
What you're suggesting is that not knowing what you're doing is actually beneficial. I can't think of an approach more backwards or counterproductive. While I'm sure this egalitarian approach is very appealing to people who don't know anything about the subject -- since the approach implies that they don't have to learn anything, and it actually puts them on a higher level than people who actually do know something about the subject -- I dispute that it's true.
Imagine if we taught any other subject by discouraging people from learning about how to do it. What if we trained new and upcoming engineers by telling them to stop "mentally masturbating" and just start building bridges already! Enouraging people not to think too hard about their chosen subject of study is just a bad idea, regardless of the subject.
And -- just to be clear -- I'm criticizing ideas, not attacking any individual."
The real point is whether you're using your intellect as a tool to engage in more, better experiments with your life; or whether your molding your experiments and analysis to serve your intellect.
If you don't start with an unknown, it's not learning.
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@danica said
" I simply say that there's a difference between knowing and doing, and you can substantially enhance your knowing by engaging in the doing, while by thinking alone you can get only - a thought-result. (it's not a good or bad thing per se, but it's partial regarding the whole of the nature of human being)"
Well, obviously I agree with this. I'm not arguing that one should just think about doing the work and nothing more. The work involves...wait for it...actually working.
But some of those "thought-results," as you put it, are incredibly useful for doing the work. You would agree, I assume, that it can only help one do the work to know what one is trying to do and how to accomplish these goals, right?
The point I'm trying to get at with Bereshith is that I strongly suspect that these rituals do close to nothing to enable a person to discover the True Will. That being the case, getting him to address these questions will bring the issue out into the open: if these rituals actually do work, then he should be able to explain simply and directly why he thinks so, and we can all evaluate his evidence and reasoning process and conclude how correct he is.
However, if these rituals don't actually work...don't you think it would be very useful to know this? And if they don't actually work, then either practitioners won't be able to explain why they think they work, or they will give incredibly vague, half-baked, and flawed reasons for thinking that they work.
Once more, I claim that it is useful to know these things, and in my experience, it's the people who aren't serious about the work who try to dismiss important questions like the ones I'm asking.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,
Hello again guys! Glad to see this topic spurs debate!
Yes, another update!
Last night I was reminded of something very interesting:
There is a part of me that goes around during the day - the conscious part that is in connection with the world around me, that goes around and does stuff, thinks and makes decisions etc.There is also another "part of me", that operates on another level.
This is evident in a lot of ways, and last night I went through in my mind lots and lots of things that have happened in my life so far.
It turns out there are loads and heaps of evidence for the existence of this other "part of me".(Btw. "Liber ThIShARB": www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib913.htm
is - as I understand it - Crowleys primary recommendation as a method for dis-covering the Will. It deals with stimulating the memory and looking at ones life in a broader perspective).The point is - I recognize the fact that there are lots and lots of events, twists and turns in the course of my life, that I could never, ever have planned with the part of me that manages day-to-day activities, which is the part that I usually identify as "me". When I look at the course my life has been taking, I can see certain evidence of another "faculty" let's call it - that makes and shapes events in a purposeful and structured way. There is also microcosmic evidence of this "faculty" - for instance in art that I have worked on.
(Now that I think about it, this is probably one reason why the orders tend to include study of divination as a subject in their curriculum !
).Between these two "parts" of me, there is no doubt as to who has the "upper hand" - it is of course the part that is actually shaping and making what is turning out to be my life, not the part that manages day-to-day (or year after year as it were) activities. It is the genius behind the scenes that is actually running the show.
Since I now know this, the sensible thing to do, is to arrange it so that the day-to-day part of me starts to cooperate with the part of me that is actually controlling my existence. Now - there might be some reason why the intentions of this "genius" is not known to "me" consciously .. Perhaps it is not useful for me to know the true intentions of the "genius" .. maybe I would just make a mess out of things if I did know .. This is my intuition anyway - there is some good reason why I do not know ..
What I CAN do, is try and better myself. I can simplify the functions of the personality, work to strengthen my faculties by placing them in alignment with how the world actually works .. In so many different ways, I can strive to make myself attractive to the "genius" as a conscious co-operator in this grand project that is my existence.
(I think - whether or not I am consciously cooperating or not, makes little difference, as the "genius" seems able to manipulate things as it wants anyway .. still I want to be
and I am sure the "genius" really wants me on the team as a conscious co-operator too, as it will undoubtedly make things work smoother and more effectively, pluss it will be another level in life - a joy for both parties involved ) ..The need for this "simplification" and strengthening of the day-to-day part of the personality is what I think spurred my interest in "Sample Ritual #9" from 776 1/2 that I mentioned.
The way I believe that rituals work, btw. is the same way that I have experienced initiation works - they start certain processes in ones life. The trick would be to start the processes that lead you in the right direction.
In addition to entering the process of dropping illusions, "simplifying" the perceptions, strengthening the ego and generally making one self more fit for a conscious co-operator, I think it will not hurt to also try and look deeper into the structure of my life in order to see if I can see some pattern there ..
Although I am still not sure about using "Sample Ritual #9" .. I will probably know in a while what to do
Love is the law, love under will,
Frater Katanoese -
@Los said
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@Bereshith said
"In my experience, such intentional symbolic actions consciously stimulate and precisely focus an internal dialogue that carries on beyond the act of the ritual itself."Ok, and they may well do this, depending on what you mean. If you mean that the ritual summons up certain kinds of thoughts that stay with you during the day and encourage you to think about them, I'd agree that rituals do that. Of course, lots of activities have that result. For example, watching an episode of Breaking Bad also "stimulates" and "focus[es]" an inner dialogue, and it usually stays with the viewer long after the episode is over.
And that brings me to my point: just because something "stimulates" an "inner dialogue" doesn't mean that it has anything to do with the True Will or brings a person any closer to discovering the True Will. So what, precisely, do you think this "inner dialogue" has to do with the True Will and how does it enable you to uncover that Will?
The more specific your answer, the better (especially for you, since answering these questions is primarily going to help you do the work)."
A: Self-aware intention in magic is everything. Ideally, one's intended purpose is explicitly written down beforehand during the preliminary processes leading up to the performance of a particular ritual.
B: Yes, of course other things can stimulate an inner dialogue. However, in magical ritual, one calls upon one's ability to create an experience of the numinous and opens themselves to be altered by that experience. In my opinion, when one genuinely opens oneself to the potential of intentionally acting upon one's inner psychic world, with *ALL *of its ability to create perceptual phenomena during the ritual and to present its interpretations of events after the ritual, one takes an irrevocable step into conversation with aspects of one's own being that are not otherwise easily brought into consciousness. One intentionally steps into an intra-psychic process that cannot be undone; it must run its course.
I don't intend to be offensive, but it is my opinion that many who discredit the power of ritual are actually attempting to protect themselves from being overwhelmed by the power of their own belief to stimulate such phenomena in their minds.
Of course, I could be wrong. There is a concept called "transliminality" which refers to the ease with which information passes back and forth between the conscious and unconscious mind in an individual. Studies show (Thalbourne) that people vary in their degree of transliminality and that this corresponds to the degree in which they are interested in such things as magic, reincarnation, and the interpretation of dreams, etc. Of course, I would also argue that the practice of magic serves to increase transliminality in low-transliminals and to regulate transliminality in high-transliminals.
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@Bereshith said
"A: Self-aware intention in magic is everything. Ideally, one's intended purpose is explicitly written down beforehand during the preliminary processes leading up to the performance of a particular ritual. "
I would disagree that intention is everything. If I pick the "wrong" ritual, I could in fact actually have results that constitute the opposite of what I intended to do. I believe certain symbols have certain meanings and certain associations. If I did not believe that (and this is based on my experiences), I would discard Thelema and dedicate myself to Chaos magick instead.
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@Bereshith said
"Yes, of course other things can stimulate an inner dialogue."
So by "inner dialogue" you did indeed mean thoughts stimulated by the ritual?
"However, in magical ritual, one calls upon one's ability to create an experience of the numinous and opens themselves to be altered by that experience."
One is "altered" by every experience. Joseph Campbell said that reading Finnegans Wake is a consciousness-transforming experience (of course, reading any text is a consciousness-transforming experience). I would say that all experiences of every kind produces alterations...the question is whether certain ritual practices alter one in ways that enable one to discover the True Will.
"In my opinion, when one genuinely opens oneself to the potential of intentionally acting upon one's inner psychic world, with *ALL *of its ability to create perceptual phenomena during the ritual and to present its interpretations of events after the ritual, one takes an irrevocable step into conversation with aspects of one's own being that are not otherwise easily brought into consciousness."
This is typical occultist flowery claptrap. You're not actually saying anything here, other than baldly asserting that ritual practices enable you to experience parts of youself that you don't usually experience. I say (1) I don't think we have much reason to say that that's true, and (2) even assuming that what you've said is true, there's no reason to think that it's got anything to do with bringing you even one jot closer to discovering your True Will. What makes you think that it does?
"Of course, I could be wrong."
You definitely could be. The important question is, what makes you think you're right? All you've done so far is claim that these rituals let you experience parts of yourself that you don't otherwise. And again, even if that's true -- a big "if" -- how do you know you're experiencing the True Will and not, say, random junk in your conscious or unconscious mind that has nothing to do with the True Will?
"There is a concept called "transliminality" which refers to the ease with which information passes back and forth between the conscious and unconscious mind in an individual."
Well, once again, there are both conscious and unconscious obstacles to discovering the True Will. Even if we agree for the sake of argument that you're absolutely right and that these rituals cause "information" to pass from your unconscious mind to your conscious mind (and I use "information" in the broadest possible sense, to include a bunch of largely useless fantasies), you'd still need a reason to think that any of this has got anything at all to do with discovering the True Will.
Once more, I realize that you're liable to brush off my points about having a clear understanding of what you're doing as some kind of trivial formality, but it's anything but. If you're making factual claims -- like the claim that rituals can cause you to discover your True Will -- then you need to support that claim with more than a bunch of speculation that sorta sounds nice and has fancy-sounding names.
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@Katanoese said
"Last night I was reminded of something very interesting:
There is a part of me that goes around during the day - the conscious part that is in connection with the world around me, that goes around and does stuff, thinks and makes decisions etc.There is also another "part of me", that operates on another level.
This is evident in a lot of ways, and last night I went through in my mind lots and lots of things that have happened in my life so far.
It turns out there are loads and heaps of evidence for the existence of this other "part of me"."This sounds like it's in the right ballpark. The real test is to locate ways that your conscious decisions have brought you inner conflict when you've acted on an incorrect idea of who you are. That's the real test: you really have to watch yourself on this one. How does your particular mind specifically distort your impressions and lead you to draw incorrect conclusions about yourself and your environment?
Nobody eles can do this for you, and the only way to do it is to pay attention to yourself in real time situations. That's it, that's the work.
You are not the stories your mind tells you about yourself. If you can locate one -- just one -- instance of your mind doing this, and feel the distance between your True Self and your mind's idea of yourself, you'll know exactly what you're looking for, exactly what it feels like, and you'll be able to replicate the achievement again more easily.
"(Btw. "Liber ThIShARB": www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib913.htm
is - as I understand it - Crowleys primary recommendation as a method for dis-covering the Will. It deals with stimulating the memory and looking at ones life in a broader perspective)."Eh, I've never found that "thinking backwards" -- what a ridiculous idea -- does anything practially to help, and I think self-induced fantasies of "past life memories" are downright distractionary. All that practices like this are going to do is mix you up more with fantasies.
Crowley's best instructions are in yoga, and that's the best place to begin: stilling the mind so that you can experience the world without thoughts. You don't even have to concentrate on one specific mental image. Just shut down your thoughts and sit. Experience the world and yourself without thought/emotions. Meditation is so interesting because shutting off thought isn't just the method of meditation: it's the result. One doesn't meditate to get any particular result: one does it just to do it. In the process of doing it, you familiarize yourself more and more with what the world looks like unmediated by thought. This has the side effect of enabling you to better see through the illusory nature of thought when you re-enter your daily life. Your ability to pay attention during your everyday activities should increase.
"Since I now know this, the sensible thing to do, is to arrange it so that the day-to-day part of me starts to cooperate with the part of me that is actually controlling my existence."
The only thing you have to be aware of is to remain cautious of the possibility of doing this in too conscious a way. If you actively seek out the patterns of your life ("Oh, here's what my True Self wants me to do...I better go do it...."), you're going to get led astray by more mental nonsense.
The work has to be to learn to observe better and then await the True Self to make its patterns known. This is why the invocation of the HGA (it's a metaphor for the True Self, not a real angel) is described as a "passive" experience. You await for it to come and "ravish" you away (if we want to get all flowery). You don't seek it, per se. You clear away the crap from your perceptive faculties, and you wait for it to come.
"Many things I beheld mediate and immediate; but, beholding them no more, I beheld Thee." -- Liber LXV, III:32.
"Now - there might be some reason why the intentions of this "genius" is not known to "me" consciously"
The normal functions of the conscious mind tend to obscure the natural inclinations from an individual.
"The way I believe that rituals work, btw. is the same way that I have experienced initiation works - they start certain processes in ones life."
That's highly questionable. They might be symbolic ways of marking something starting in your life, but I would dispute that they cause processes to start. You cause them to happen, and you do so in your everyday life.
Attainment isn't some state you achieve: it's a skill. You practice it mindfully at every moment of your life.
Best of luck,
Los