This is how I'm gonna go about The Great Work...
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@Miles said
"14. Success."
I don't doubt that you're going to obtain some kind of result, but what in the world makes you think that the result will have anything at all to do with gaining insight into yourself?
If your goal is to gain insight into your True Self -- the self that is normally obscured from you thanks to the actions of your mind, both conscious and unconscious -- then playing around with dream buddies and imaginary friends is going to be virtually useless. You'll generate some trippy visions, I'm sure, and you'll definitely be able to talk yourself into thinking that you're "attaining" all kinds of wonders, but you're not going to gain any substantial insight into yourself, nor will you be any better equipped to navigate the world as it actually is.
It's one thing to say that success is your proof, but unless you have clear criteria for deciding that something is a "success," you're flying blind, just trusting how it all subjectively feels.
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@Los said
"?
If your goal is to gain insight into your True Self -- the self that is normally obscured from you thanks to the actions of your mind, both conscious and unconscious -- then playing around with dream buddies and imaginary friends is going to be virtually useless. "
Who better to teach him of his Self than his Self?
Who else shall he find within, without him in his dream?
Only his Self, for there is only Self -
And that Self is but a drop
Within a drop
Gliding along the curve of a drop
That eventually returns to the ocean;
Though it might have to live as part of something else a few times before it does
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@Uni_Verse said
"Who else shall he find within, without him in his dream?
Only his Self"Well, that's the question. Thelema, at least, distinguishes between a person's real Self and the imaginary self-image that the mind generates about that self.
As Crowley puts it:
"The sincere student will discover, behind the symbolic technicalities of this book, a practical method [...] [that will] will enable him to discriminate between what he actually is, and what he has fondly imagined himself to be.
[...]
He must behold his soul in all its awful nakedness, he must not fear to look on that appalling actuality. [...] Magick will teach him that his mind is playing him traitor"
Thelema doesn't hold that the contents of the mind are "only the Self" at all -- assuming that by "Self," we mean the True Self (represented by the metaphor named "Holy Guardian Angel"). In contrast, Thelema holds that the Self is veiled by the mind, to be discovered (dis-covered) by piercing that veil and seeing through the imaginary illusion with which the mind has wrapped that will.
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@Los said
"
Thelema doesn't hold that the contents of the mind are "only the Self" at all -- assuming that by "Self," we mean the True Self (represented by the metaphor named "Holy Guardian Angel"). In contrast, Thelema holds that the Self is veiled by the mind, to be discovered (dis-covered) by piercing that veil and seeing through the imaginary illusion with which the mind has wrapped that will.
"If I meant True Self, I would have said that
Though the important facet is he spoke of Lucid Dreaming, not merely dreaming.
Were he speaking of the latter, I would agree.In the end, the action he takes is irrelevant.
It is the intent, the focus of Will that is important.
Will this method allow him to attain K&C?
No way of knowing until he tries,
Regardless he is bound to learn something.At some point we all have to take a leap of faith, if only to slam face first into the ground.
Recall that The Tower is being struck by lighting -
If you are a living being, be soft and supple, thus shall you over come the hardness of Death. -
Universe: Way ahead of you on ADONAI chanting.
ThelemicMage: Sorry I didn't mention it, but I do indeed meditate daily (in rigorous, A.'.A.'.-oriented fashion)
Los: First of all, the HGA is not a metaphor. Second, this is my own devised myself of self-discovery. There's no harm in trying. There is a difference between being scientific, and being a cynical asshole.
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Far from trying to be a cynical asshole, I might recommend reading a piece by our man Crowley entitled "The Psychology of Hashish", the second installment of it actually, in the second volume of the Equinox.
Without any language of common rouges, he goes into detail of certain kinds of meditation and ways to aid that meditation -- specifically "dreaming awake". I must say, my teenage years of being in "high" school, scarfing sweets, is Aeons away from using a small amount of an herbal ally, as Crowley suggests, to promote such wakeful dreaming if one cannot undo the fetters of the soul while in normal meditation, unassisted actively by Nuit and our Mother Nature, and the soul of the plant ye dost choose to work with and Love with.
I feel you will find your way soon, dear Brother.
Do not let the abyss confuse you with it's useless voices.Universe might elaborate on this, as a Universe would.
Trust in every message from thy Angel. We must remember, that the difference between K&C and psychosis is paying too much attention to one's self, an echo, (I typed "ego then had to backspace,) of the message that melts into abyssal goo if one does not familiarize one's self with ego loss.
Take it easy, and I don't mean sleazy.
Love is the Law,
Frank -
@Miles said
"Los: First of all, the HGA is not a metaphor."
Yes, it is. Crowley chose "Holy Guardian Angel" as an arbitrary convention, noting that the term implies an "absurd" theory about the universe that only "simpletons" would take literally. Here, look for yourself at his words:
"[The Master Therion's] will was sufficiently informed by common sense to decide him to teach man "The Next Step", the thing which was immediately above him. He might have called this "God", or "The Higher Self", or "The Augoeides", or "Adi-Buddha", or 61 other things â but He had discovered that these were all one, yet that each one represented some theory of the Universe which would ultimately be shattered by criticism â for He had already passed through the realm of Reason, and knew that every statement contained an absurdity. He therefore said: "Let me declare this Work under this title: 'The obtaining of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel'", because the theory implied in these words is so patently absurd that only simpletons would waste much time in analysing it. It would be accepted as a convention, and no one would incur the grave danger of building a philosophical system upon it."
The HGA isn't a real, honest-to-goodness spirit that you're summoning up. If you go into the process thinking that it is, you're going to fail (though you'll easily generate imaginative experiences that you might mistake for success).
Crowley explains very clearly in his body of works that the HGA represents the True Self of an individual, the Self buried beneath the mind and body (the dynamic aspect of which is the True Will).
As ever, crystal clear understanding of what one is trying to do -- and the criteria by which one can judge that one has succeeded -- is imperative to success. It's too easy to imagine that you've "succeeded" and talked yourself into thinking that you've attained...it's far, far easier to do this when you don't even know what the goal of the system is in the first place.
"Second, this is my own devised myself of self-discovery."
And so we can talk about it. What makes you think it will be effective at self-discovery?
If you had invented your own method of building a desk, we could talk about it, and you could explain to us what makes you think it will effectively enable you to build a desk...if you couldn't explain that, then we'd all have good grounds for supposing that your method isn't effective at all.
There's no reason to think, a priori, that discovering the True Will isn't like any other task, in that it requires someone to know what to do and how to do it.
"There's no harm in trying."
Obviously, no harm is going to come to you if you have a bunch of dreams and chant some stuff. It might very well distract you from actual attainment, though, so depending on how we're defining "harm," it might be harmful in that sense.
"There is a difference between being scientific, and being a cynical {***hole}."
I assumed that when you posted your technique that you were looking for informed, intelligent feedback, so I gave you some. If all you want is people to slap you on the back and tell you how "rad" your ideas are, I'm not sure if Thelema is quite right for you.
The way we all learn is by subjecting our ideas to critical scrutiny.
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I think it's too early to say whether the results will be meaningful or not.
More than no harm in trying, there is real benefit in setting out to accomplish something and following through. And I'll be interested to learn if you actually keep any of this up for any significant period of time.
When I first read your list, I had a similar kind of scoffing reaction as Los so painfully articulates. I thought, gee, couldn't the fellow be doing something more useful with his time. But then I stepped back and gave my response a do what thou wilt rewrite, and I thought you'd already accomplished something interesting to even aspire to do this stuff. I thought there could be important benefits from dreaming with intention and deeply pondering a name for the higher self. I thought prolonged meditation is always worthwhile. And I thought, heck, who am I to say. The dude actually might get something meaningful out of all this stuff.
Anyway, I welcome future updates on your progress. Keep a tight diary and let's see what you have to say in a month. My money says you drop off and loose your momentum in a week or less. Prove me wrong.
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Los...www.erwinhessle.com/writings/pdfs/The_Holy_Guardian_Angel.pdf
Not a metaphor.
Sure, you're giving criticism, which is perfectly fine, but it's not constructive criticism. You're not exactly giving good suggestions, like these other guys are doing. More like, just bashing my technique and brushing aside any hope for success. You're being a cynical asshole.
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Damn language.. why cant we just all be psychic
The descriptive is a metaphor when you're discussing 'it'... that is all.
I'm a practitioner of Zen Buddhism so because of that flavour i prefer to call it a mental body.
To me it consisted of thoughts, ideas and information.. there was always a connection though it seemed incomplete, that incompleteness allowed it to act independently from the physical self casting an illusion that it was a separate entity.
I detected more than one.. culminating in a mental body that ignored me entirely.. that led me to a big surprise.
It contains some passion as well.. i perceived this as wanting to know whats next as i kept coming up on bounded systems.. this gave me the realisation that the meat brain cant perceive eternity directly.
One thing i am sure of is that this mental body has a vested interest in assisting you.. it's also seeking enlightenment and cant do it without your physical self...that which is an aspect of it. -
@danica said
"
@Uni_Verse said
"It is the intent, the focus of Will that is important."and Love as much so."
Love is the Doing of the Work
I project this Wonder,
To which I seek to connect;
As each day the rituals,
Dissolve the difference,
Between Me and what I (the) mean
To focus my intent !EDIT:
Love under Will -
[UPDATE]
Ok, so I had my first lucid dream today since writing this post. Basically realized I was dreaming, starting rubbing my hands to continue the lucidity (that's what I've read), looked around, didn't see anyone to ask, so I just shouted, "What is the name of my Holy Guardian Angel?!"
Immediately, as if someone was speaking in a circle around me, I got "AZRAEL." Then I woke up.So now I have a lead, but I'll definitely have to have another lucid dream to confirm this.
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Any updates?
