I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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I don't know you, I have never met you, but I want you to know you are loved. I have been in similar dark places, as others in this forum have been. IMHO, I would earnestly counsel a therapist to assist with the feelings you have been having along with relaxation meditation and banishings as discussed above. I apologize, but I will refrain from sharing the specifics of my dark moments, as I feel they would pale in comparison to what others have gone through.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"I consider saying the truth helpful. And I answered your questions. (BTW, I wasn't arrogant at all. Falsely claiming to be a Babe of the Abyss is arrogance.)"
I don't understand you... I found my True Will... I did it, and was suddenly after a while thrown into this really dark place...
Simply explained; isn't this how it is supposed to happen?
And NO! You haven't answered any of my questions, I still have got no, words, text, anecdotes to read... But as I said, you weren't really interested in answering me, were you!? What interested you was to tell me how wrong I am...
You are intelligent; don't play "semantics" with me please. End of this silly part of the discussion.
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"Why weren't you helpful? Or were you only so arrogantly eager trying to put me down by telling me that I was wrong - that you failed to extract the meaning or "tacit knowledge" from my questions?"
I actually read his posts as intending to be helpful. They may not, in fact, have helped; but FWIW that's how I read the tone and content/
"Because the questions remain unanswered... "
Possibly the answer is, "None of your business;" but, of course, everyone has to determine that for themselves.
I must admit that the suffering you describe does not strike me at all as the Vision of Sorrow in the sense that it applies to Binah. To give the highest valuation to it, your words sound a lot like the passage of Geburah (whih feels a lot like the Abyss; in fact, it's the first of three Gates to the Abyss.
Most people posting here with similar descriptions are undergoing a much earlier ordeal that is still purifying at the personality level.
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@ARYK said
"I don't know you, I have never met you, but I want you to know you are loved."
You made me smile and giggle.
@ARYK said
"I have been in similar dark places, as others in this forum have been. IMHO, I would earnestly counsel a therapist to assist with the feelings you have been having along with relaxation meditation and banishings as discussed above. I apologize, but I will refrain from sharing the specifics of my dark moments, as I feel they would pale in comparison to what others have gone through."
How kindhearted of you, thanks for you reply!
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"I don't understand you... I found my True Will... I did it, and was suddenly after a while thrown into this really dark place...
Simply explained; isn't this how it is supposed to happen? "
I notice you don't mention the K&C of the HGA. (The discovery of the True Will is often a much earlier result.)
"And NO! You haven't answered any of my questions, I still have got no, words, text, anecdotes to read..."
And I, for one, am not inclined to give you any. If I did, they would be 6=5 anecdotes, and those are very personal. (As mentioned before, that's the high end of how I interpret your words. It presumes you previously had the K&C of the HGA. If not, then your words paint common feelings of the Path of Tav, or even some of the ordeals of 3=8 - as one struggles from being "at effect" of Meym, A'ayin, and Peh without having mastered them yet.)
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"I found my True Will... I did it,"
You did it? Are you still doing it?"and was suddenly after a while thrown into this really dark place...
"Happens all the time.
"Simply explained; isn't this how it is supposed to happen?"
How what is supposed to happen? The Abyss? You are (supposedly) in a much better position of answering that than me.
"I still have got no, words, text, anecdotes to read..."
Again: if you are where you believe you are now, you should have read all or most of that stuff a long time ago.
"you weren't really interested in answering me, were you!? What interested you was to tell me how wrong I am..."
I do think you are wrong about experiencing The Abyss. However, if you really are on your way to become a Magister Templi, you don't need to listen to me. Or ask anyone anything about it, for that matter.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"Why weren't you helpful? Or were you only so arrogantly eager trying to put me down by telling me that I was wrong - that you failed to extract the meaning or "tacit knowledge" from my questions?"I actually read his posts as intending to be helpful. They may not, in fact, have helped; but FWIW that's how I read the tone and content/"
You never know "As brothers fight ye!" I pulled my sword just in case
@Jim Eshelman said
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"Because the questions remain unanswered... "Possibly the answer is, "None of your business;" but, of course, everyone has to determine that for themselves.
I must admit that the suffering you describe does not strike me at all as the Vision of Sorrow in the sense that it applies to Binah. To give the highest valuation to it, your words sound a lot like the passage of Geburah (whih feels a lot like the Abyss; in fact, it's the first of three Gates to the Abyss.
Most people posting here with similar descriptions are undergoing a much earlier ordeal that is still purifying at the personality level."
Jim,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Could you tell me more about this Geburah-experience? And what are the three gates?
I don’t really know how to describe the experience I have been having other than it’s just 100’s of hours of tears – buckets of tears! Agony and the most horrible pain… In the beginning of this experience I remember watching this episode of Dr House, and saw a man lying on his deathbed, dying – can you believe it, but I actually felt sincere jealousy!!! And cried out:
“How nice for him! Oh god how nice for him! I want also!”
For a while I thought the tears just wouldn’t stop coming, but it has gradually – 2,5 years later – become much better, and the pain isn’t as severe as it used to be, even though I still feel suicidal and daily yearn for death…
Now, everything isn’t dark… Like Crowley said, crossing the abyss is changing oneself permanently from the inside... I don’t know how to describe it, but if my heart was hard – It is now soft – If I was arrogant – I now feel more humble… And the strangest thing; even though I am so “close” or have this “desire” of wanting to die – I feel a bit joyous... Beneath all darkness I feel there is this little boy who is quite happy even though life is rough…
If I say “smile”, it’s like my innermost being breaks up in a smile and I actually start to giggle when saying the word “smile”… I could give many examples on how this "crossing" has changed me in a way that I thought wasn't possible. Just to give an example:
I can never feel lonely again - that distinct feeling of "loneliness" that I have felt so many times in my life, is gone, vanished... I feel "connected" with everything, the "distance" which could create loneliness, is gone so to speak...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I don't understand you... I found my True Will... I did it, and was suddenly after a while thrown into this really dark place...Simply explained; isn't this how it is supposed to happen? "
I notice you don't mention the K&C of the HGA. (The discovery of the True Will is often a much earlier result.)
"And NO! You haven't answered any of my questions, I still have got no, words, text, anecdotes to read..."
And I, for one, am not inclined to give you any. If I did, they would be 6=5 anecdotes, and those are very personal. (As mentioned before, that's the high end of how I interpret your words. It presumes you previously had the K&C of the HGA. If not, then your words paint common feelings of the Path of Tav, or even some of the ordeals of 3=8 - as one struggles from being "at effect" of Meym, A'ayin, and Peh without having mastered them yet.)"
Let me explain me finding the True will
But now back in 2010 I was pulled back into it the Great Work I had somewhat abandoned, by my former boss trampling on my heart so badly that it stirred up something in me never before known to me, and I started walking “the path” – a path which to me felt totally new, narrow and very scary – scary because walking the path is none comprehensible by one’s reason... Reason seems to want to know what is going on before it has actually happened (predict the future so to say)... And if one’s reason doesn’t know what is going to happen – it invokes fear... Doing one’s true will therefore to me feels some what like walking in the dark not knowing what desires is going to pop up from one’s deepest unconscious mind…
If I put it like this, at first It sure wasn’t fun being told by my “inner self” to “question” my marriage and my feelings towards my earlier partner – finally actually ending up divorcing her… I was at first very scared and emotionally upset by this deep inner sense rising to the surface of my conscious mind… I therefore immediately suppressed it – for several months! When it once again caught me unguarded… I then understood that I had to “listen” and this time when starting to think about my marriage and our life together – It made perfect sense, and therefore I divorced my wife…
Later my HGA appeared and her name is ***** and she later left me with all these tears and pain...
I long for her every day
Does it sound more reasonable now Jim?
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@Patrick Ossoski said
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"I still have got no, words, text, anecdotes to read..."Again: if you are where you believe you are now, you should have read all or most of that stuff a long time ago."
93
No, I am just a stupied Ox; a fool; a man of earth. I never went that deep into any intellectual studies. Crossing the abyss imo, has nothing to do with knowledge, and can actually be done without ever having heard of Crowley, Thelema or western esoterism...
93 93/93
Peace
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"No, I am just a stupied Ox; a fool; a man of earth."
A Man of Earth can't cross the Abyss. Only a Lover.
"I never went that deep into any intellectual studies."
Quite a feat to walk the Path, attain to the K&C of your HGA and perfect your Adepthood without much "intelectual study."
"Crossing the abyss imo, has nothing to do with knowledge, and can actually be done without ever having heard of Crowley, Thelema or western esoterism..."
Of course. You should, then, seek guidance in the system or whatever which allowed you to progress as far as an Exempt Adept.
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"Could you tell me more about this Geburah-experience? And what are the three gates? "
Geburah (the 6=5 Grade), Chesed (the 7=4 Grade), and the Abyss itself (for sake of discussion, say Da'ath) are the three Gates to the Abyss. After Adeptus Minor (5=6, Tiphereth), they are three clear stages of what follows.
Looking back, I've probably written more about 6=5 than any other part of the journey. There is so much to say. But lt me try this: The entry is the Path of Lamed, and the experience of that is a confrontation of all of the elements of Karma - of coming to recognize (with the same simplicity that one breathes) the inseverable connection between one's actions and their consequences. The time in the grade of blistering hot, energy high, impact of events high. Though it isn't the whole of the experience of the grade, person after person has reported a path of Severity, harsh realities, abrupt disruptions in life, a kind of purgation and a kind of accident of losing things through one's clear actions. There were, for me, visions of Babalon, soul-stripping severity, and the like.
"Now, everything isn’t dark… Like Crowley said, crossing the abyss is changing oneself permanently from the inside..."
Then again, whatever ordeal you passed through would be expected to change you ahnd resolve.
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"Let me explain me finding the True will
But now back in 2010 I was pulled back into it the Great Work I had somewhat abandoned, by my former boss trampling on my heart so badly that it stirred up something in me never before known to me, and I started walking “the path” – a path which to me felt totally new, narrow and very scary – scary because walking the path is none comprehensible by one’s reason... Reason seems to want to know what is going on before it has actually happened (predict the future so to say)... And if one’s reason doesn’t know what is going to happen – it invokes fear... Doing one’s true will therefore to me feels some what like walking in the dark not knowing what desires is going to pop up from one’s deepest unconscious mind…
If I put it like this, at first It sure wasn’t fun being told by my “inner self” to “question” my marriage and my feelings towards my earlier partner – finally actually ending up divorcing her… I was at first very scared and emotionally upset by this deep inner sense rising to the surface of my conscious mind… I therefore immediately suppressed it – for several months! When it once again caught me unguarded… I then understood that I had to “listen” and this time when starting to think about my marriage and our life together – It made perfect sense, and therefore I divorced my wife…
Later my HGA appeared and her name is ***** and she later left me with all these tears and pain...
I long for her every day
Does it sound more reasonable now Jim?"
I don't know you well enough (deeply enough) to be qualified to judge your experience. However, you asked. With the undertanding that I can only go by what you have given (the words you've said above), I'm willing to make a couple of comments.
Two things that I miss in the foregoung are certainty and joy. And yet, these are deeply characteristic of the stages that bear the labels that you want to apply to your experineces.
It does sound like someone who has had the beginnings of some opening out experiences. Who is, perhaps, learning to follow inner intuitions but has not, as yet, become conscious of the central, integrated kernel of his own being. (Remember: I'm only going by what you've witten here.) You have some right characteristics, that tell me you're on a promising path: You know that True Will is a voice of a priori reason. And you are still inching your way through, groping in the dark - the nature of those who are truly primed to begin a path of initiation. That''s not "doing one's will" - that's having realized that one has a True Will, the crisis of circumstance of conscience which often impels to take up the Work in the first place.
This is a very great thing.
Suicidal feelings are not characteristic of one facing the Abyss - certainly not as a chronic phenomenon.
It sounds, from your report, that you had a vision of your HGA and learned its name - which is a formula for your own work. Responding to your specific invitation and inquiry, I feel I must point out that the Angel does not charadteristically leave you in tears and pain (unless they are tears of release. Or, perhaps, you mean much later, and you were describing what you believe is the experience of the Abyss Yes, at that threshold the Angel departs for a time (or, rather, one's prior means of communicating with it now fail to work as before, and a new formula or relationship has to be forged). It does not sound, though, that you had the Knowledge & Conversation of this Angel if it was a single appearance that left you in the state you described, even with the disclosure of the Name.
Again - I answer only because you seem quite sincere in wanting answers; and you asked; and I've answered going only on what you have given here.
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Dear The_Hawkheaded_child, you will do well to take Jim's words and put them to good use. Me, I'm merely an unqualified observer of you, unqualified by distance and your own filters, but you will do well to take heed of my words as well, as we all only intend to help. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." You describe more being done unto than actually doing. Your world is treating you a certain way, your emotions are not within the mastership of your intentions (the so-called "love under will" thing). "Love is the law, love under will." These are not mere words of greeting, not simply bookends to couch fantasy within, but formula upon which everything can rest.
Jim used sweeter words when he said he did not see in your descriptions (filtered as they are by a lot of self self self) the characteristics of "going forth with certainty and joy" (which is a description befit of someone who is living their so-called True Will). In the paragraph above this one, I said the same to you, with meaning.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Looking back, I've probably written more about 6=5 than any other part of the journey. There is so much to say. But lt me try this: The entry is the Path of Lamed, and the experience of that is a confrontation of all of the elements of Karma - of coming to recognize (with the same simplicity that one breathes) the inseverable connection between one's actions and their consequences. The time in the grade of blistering hot, energy high, impact of events high. Though it isn't the whole of the experience of the grade, person after person has reported a path of Severity, harsh realities, abrupt disruptions in life, a kind of purgation and a kind of accident of losing things through one's clear actions. There were, for me, visions of Babalon, soul-stripping severity, and the like."
Jim,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I can relate to the 6=5 experience since I was facing many difficulties – it was like you said:
“a confrontation of all of the elements of Karma" and "Impacts of events high”
My Grandma died (I grew up with her). Then my boss betrayed me and later started harassing me, finally succeeding in having me fired, taking away from me the job I loved... I went through a bitter divorce, my former wife and her family suddenly turned against me and refused to let me see my son… I put my cat to death. Several other conflicts and crushed relationships.
Much of this is of course still a source of sadness in my life… like not being able to see my beautiful baby boy…
I actually felt “certain” and “joyous” about the path (even though it was tough!) and got several signs along the way confirming my steps (once a falcon flew in and got stuck between two windows, and I had to help this bird of Horus with my bare hands!). I also knew and had this awareness of what the universe was “doing” towards me, and I remember feeling cocky (!) for still standing up even though I faced so many difficulties.
I took pride in what I wasn’t supposed to take pride in… and I feel so ashamed of myself for doing so... So I was sent this final “experience” which I first thought was to change things for the better – having pulled the tarot card “the Moon”, twice, confirming what was going on…
Because now this beautiful angelic creature came into my life (She spent the night at my place this one time, and at night I heard this electric buzzing sound and saw three stars raising from TBOTL – confirming the way!!!!!). But… She got scared and left me never to come back, when my love for her turned into pure insanity (I had never in my life felt anything so strong – I couldn’t control myself!)… I now started to cry and self destruct, and “changing”– now twice pulling the tarot card “death”.
I call her “the Angel of death” because I have been longing for death ever since she left me… I even woke up several times during this period wishing that it was all a dream, but immediately realizing it wasn't!
"Suicidal feelings are not characteristic of one facing the Abyss - certainly not as a chronic phenomenon."
The book of the law has to be called upon in this case:
*73. Ah! Ah! Death! Death! thou shalt long for death. Death is forbidden, o man, unto thee.
- The length of thy longing shall be the strength of its glory. He that lives long & desires death much is ever the King among the Kings.*
I can relate to this… In fact I “instinctively” relate to this passage. Also this tremendous suffering – being nailed to the cross of suffering – Is also a characteristic that should be attributed to Binah, right?
Finally… I pulled the tarot card “the devil”, confirming what I believe to be “the Night of Pan”… I also had this era of insane creativity… I did stuff never before done (Writing poetry, stories, painting etc. I had never written anything like it in my life, and two women actually started crying while reading some of my simple words!)... Now, not having the need of pulling any more cards… and so to fulfill my destiny… I left my apartment and gave away everything I had… for this life on the street – begging for other people’s money!
Yeah, you heard me! I am a Beggar! Currently staying at this woman’s place, working on the assignment that I “believe” I have been dealt to accomplish…
But now there is doubt, doubt, doubt, only doubt… Because I don’t like the knowledge of who I am and what lies ahead of me... I feel that the assignment is “above my level” to accomplish… It’s way to big and way above my level… I am just this little foolish boy in a grown mans body... I have been playing with matches... and started this fire that I don't know if I am able to handle...
In the vision and the voice it says he doesn't want the death of a sinner, but how am I supposed to survive this? I repent! God I repent! And how am I… I… this unworthy unknowledgeable creature, to accomplish what I think is in my destiny to accomplish?
Also there hasn't been anymore “signs” confirming my path for the past 2 years…”The road” so to say, and all the magick is gone!
The problem I am facing now is that my “will” seem broke… The aspiration gone… Vanished! I don’t seem to have any force left accomplishing what I thought I were supposed to accomplish – and this bothers me and strikes me with the feeling:“How on earth am I to get out of here if I don’t get any serious work done?” This of course frustrates me, since I gave away everything I had for doing what I thought I were supposed to be doing…
I now feel somewhat stranded out here in the wilderness…
Oh God command me and I shall do thy will! But there is no commandment! I don’t feel scared (only of the future) but can’t help wondering; am I lost? But I do my best to be patient, accepting things just the way they are - even though my "reason" bullies me with thinking that this "unproductive" state, is a pure waste of time...I am counteracting these thoughts and feelings by invoking:
“For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.”
I have grewn a lot of patient these years… maturing… I am not so cocky anymore. One actually shouldn't be; forgive me for my immaturity... But… as I said, it has been unbelievably dark but also “joyous”… I have met so many beautiful people on the street and have had so many incredible experiences – which the emptiness of my former life never could have provided me with… I can’t complain… I really shouldn’t… Sometimes I even laugh…
But will I Survive? I don’t know… My inner feeling is that Hadit in my heart won't let me do it if I am truly to accomplish anything... (I have been at the tree where to hang myself twice, but every time i get there i start to giggle and fel joyous!!!) This is the paradox with my experience: Pain (not as much anymore) and this great longing for death, while being able to be joyous and laugh about it!
Thanks for taking me seriously Jim…
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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Well it can be abyss, pit in your soul, despair in your eyes. It can be many other things, or a mix
He that lives long & desires death much is ever the King among the Kings.
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@kasper81 said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I have been down in this hellish pit of suicidal feelings, despair and tears, for 2,5 years now...Has anyone else gone through this experience? Did Crowley ever mention how it was like for him? How did he confirm that Charles Stanfield Jones was going through this experience - did Jones give any written testimony of his experience? Any proof?
If possible; I would like to have the comfort of reading about another mans experience of this dark night of the soul...
Thanks..."
Have you asked this before on this forum?"
No.
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@Takamba said
"Jim used sweeter words when he said he did not see in your descriptions (filtered as they are by a lot of self self self) the characteristics of "going forth with certainty and joy" (which is a description befit of someone who is living their so-called True Will). In the paragraph above this one, I said the same to you, with meaning."
Again, of course I have felt certainty and joy. Doing one's will comes with a satisfaction never felt before - no matter how rough and scary it gets:
"Whatever horrors may afflict the soul, whatever abominations may excite the loathing of the heart, whatever terror may assail the mind, the answer is the same at every stage: ‘How splendid is the Adventure!"
But saying that it doesn't hurt... Saying that I don't long for death... saying that I don't miss my son... Saying that I don't miss the woman I love and the K & C of my Holy Guardian Angel - would be a monstrous lie... I don't know how to really describe something making me want to kill myself, and still being "satisfying"!
I don't know...
I don't miss them "actively"; only when I let my mind wander their way. Most of the time my mind is pretty blank; and the agony of my soul pulls me to stay "present" experiencing this very "now", in a way never before experienced.
I actually have a hard time to "think"! My mind is empty and going forward or backwards in time feels like it requires a lot of energy. I have a hard time being conscious of "what" I think... It's like the gap between my unconscious and my conscious is forging "together" as one.
So "speech" and "thought" is like "one". I can't seem to formulate my speech in my thoughts like before... There are no thoughts preceding my speech. There is only speech so to say... I'm not sure if I like it, because I don't have the same control over what comes out of my mouth anymore, and I have a hard time getting used to this...
I don't know if this rambling makes any sense at all...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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In systematically working the Paths of the Tree, one gains a progressive sense of ownership or mastery over them. This happens sequentially in initiation systems such as Temple of Thelema or A.'. A.'..
But when one is opened to a new grade, the sphere of that grade is impacted by Paths that touch it which you haven't yet mastered. In the cause-effect continuum, you are not "at cause" for these energies, but are "at effect" of them - exposed to them without significant mastery of their particular modes of consciousness.
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"I have been down in this hellish pit of suicidal feelings, despair and tears, for 2,5 years now...
Has anyone else gone through this experience?"
I've had several "episodes" like this in my life. I just came out of one. IMHO, you're depressed. What helps me? I have a good psyhcotherapist. By good I mean someone who recommends anti-depressants or "shock therapy" or equally drastic and usually unncessary measures only as last resorts and who his very skilled in Rational Emotive Behavior, Cognitive Behavior and Dialectical Behavior therapies.
I'm not saying this will work for you so it's not really advice.
However, suicidal feelings and depression are serious. How hard would it be for you to get a copy of Albert Ellis' A Guide To Rational Living and David D. Burns' Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy (they both are cheap in paperback; I think I paid 6 bucks for the latter title and mostl libaries have them)? If you can, start reading them immediately and find a sympathetic therapist.
"Did Crowley ever mention how it was like for him?"
If the biography Perdurabo is accurate (he leans heavily on AC's diaries), he experienced depression several times in his life, and doubt about Thelema and his Office. -
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If I put it like this, at first It sure wasn’t fun being told by my “inner self” to “question” my marriage and my feelings towards my earlier partner – finally actually ending up divorcing her… I was at first very scared and emotionally upset by this deep inner sense rising to the surface of my conscious mind… I therefore immediately suppressed it – for several months! When it once again caught me unguarded… I then understood that I had to “listen” and this time when starting to think about my marriage and our life together – It made perfect sense, and therefore I divorced my wife…Later my HGA appeared and her name is ***** and she later left me with all these tears and pain...
I long for her every day
Does it sound more reasonable now Jim?"
I guess I'm wondering if at any point you tried to use magick to affect the mundane, particularly after you contacted the HGA. If so how did that go for you?