I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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"Could you tell me more about this Geburah-experience? And what are the three gates? "
Geburah (the 6=5 Grade), Chesed (the 7=4 Grade), and the Abyss itself (for sake of discussion, say Da'ath) are the three Gates to the Abyss. After Adeptus Minor (5=6, Tiphereth), they are three clear stages of what follows.
Looking back, I've probably written more about 6=5 than any other part of the journey. There is so much to say. But lt me try this: The entry is the Path of Lamed, and the experience of that is a confrontation of all of the elements of Karma - of coming to recognize (with the same simplicity that one breathes) the inseverable connection between one's actions and their consequences. The time in the grade of blistering hot, energy high, impact of events high. Though it isn't the whole of the experience of the grade, person after person has reported a path of Severity, harsh realities, abrupt disruptions in life, a kind of purgation and a kind of accident of losing things through one's clear actions. There were, for me, visions of Babalon, soul-stripping severity, and the like.
"Now, everything isn’t dark… Like Crowley said, crossing the abyss is changing oneself permanently from the inside..."
Then again, whatever ordeal you passed through would be expected to change you ahnd resolve.
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"Let me explain me finding the True will
But now back in 2010 I was pulled back into it the Great Work I had somewhat abandoned, by my former boss trampling on my heart so badly that it stirred up something in me never before known to me, and I started walking “the path” – a path which to me felt totally new, narrow and very scary – scary because walking the path is none comprehensible by one’s reason... Reason seems to want to know what is going on before it has actually happened (predict the future so to say)... And if one’s reason doesn’t know what is going to happen – it invokes fear... Doing one’s true will therefore to me feels some what like walking in the dark not knowing what desires is going to pop up from one’s deepest unconscious mind…
If I put it like this, at first It sure wasn’t fun being told by my “inner self” to “question” my marriage and my feelings towards my earlier partner – finally actually ending up divorcing her… I was at first very scared and emotionally upset by this deep inner sense rising to the surface of my conscious mind… I therefore immediately suppressed it – for several months! When it once again caught me unguarded… I then understood that I had to “listen” and this time when starting to think about my marriage and our life together – It made perfect sense, and therefore I divorced my wife…
Later my HGA appeared and her name is ***** and she later left me with all these tears and pain...
I long for her every day
Does it sound more reasonable now Jim?"
I don't know you well enough (deeply enough) to be qualified to judge your experience. However, you asked. With the undertanding that I can only go by what you have given (the words you've said above), I'm willing to make a couple of comments.
Two things that I miss in the foregoung are certainty and joy. And yet, these are deeply characteristic of the stages that bear the labels that you want to apply to your experineces.
It does sound like someone who has had the beginnings of some opening out experiences. Who is, perhaps, learning to follow inner intuitions but has not, as yet, become conscious of the central, integrated kernel of his own being. (Remember: I'm only going by what you've witten here.) You have some right characteristics, that tell me you're on a promising path: You know that True Will is a voice of a priori reason. And you are still inching your way through, groping in the dark - the nature of those who are truly primed to begin a path of initiation. That''s not "doing one's will" - that's having realized that one has a True Will, the crisis of circumstance of conscience which often impels to take up the Work in the first place.
This is a very great thing.
Suicidal feelings are not characteristic of one facing the Abyss - certainly not as a chronic phenomenon.
It sounds, from your report, that you had a vision of your HGA and learned its name - which is a formula for your own work. Responding to your specific invitation and inquiry, I feel I must point out that the Angel does not charadteristically leave you in tears and pain (unless they are tears of release. Or, perhaps, you mean much later, and you were describing what you believe is the experience of the Abyss Yes, at that threshold the Angel departs for a time (or, rather, one's prior means of communicating with it now fail to work as before, and a new formula or relationship has to be forged). It does not sound, though, that you had the Knowledge & Conversation of this Angel if it was a single appearance that left you in the state you described, even with the disclosure of the Name.
Again - I answer only because you seem quite sincere in wanting answers; and you asked; and I've answered going only on what you have given here.
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Dear The_Hawkheaded_child, you will do well to take Jim's words and put them to good use. Me, I'm merely an unqualified observer of you, unqualified by distance and your own filters, but you will do well to take heed of my words as well, as we all only intend to help. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." You describe more being done unto than actually doing. Your world is treating you a certain way, your emotions are not within the mastership of your intentions (the so-called "love under will" thing). "Love is the law, love under will." These are not mere words of greeting, not simply bookends to couch fantasy within, but formula upon which everything can rest.
Jim used sweeter words when he said he did not see in your descriptions (filtered as they are by a lot of self self self) the characteristics of "going forth with certainty and joy" (which is a description befit of someone who is living their so-called True Will). In the paragraph above this one, I said the same to you, with meaning.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Looking back, I've probably written more about 6=5 than any other part of the journey. There is so much to say. But lt me try this: The entry is the Path of Lamed, and the experience of that is a confrontation of all of the elements of Karma - of coming to recognize (with the same simplicity that one breathes) the inseverable connection between one's actions and their consequences. The time in the grade of blistering hot, energy high, impact of events high. Though it isn't the whole of the experience of the grade, person after person has reported a path of Severity, harsh realities, abrupt disruptions in life, a kind of purgation and a kind of accident of losing things through one's clear actions. There were, for me, visions of Babalon, soul-stripping severity, and the like."
Jim,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I can relate to the 6=5 experience since I was facing many difficulties – it was like you said:
“a confrontation of all of the elements of Karma" and "Impacts of events high”
My Grandma died (I grew up with her). Then my boss betrayed me and later started harassing me, finally succeeding in having me fired, taking away from me the job I loved... I went through a bitter divorce, my former wife and her family suddenly turned against me and refused to let me see my son… I put my cat to death. Several other conflicts and crushed relationships.
Much of this is of course still a source of sadness in my life… like not being able to see my beautiful baby boy…
I actually felt “certain” and “joyous” about the path (even though it was tough!) and got several signs along the way confirming my steps (once a falcon flew in and got stuck between two windows, and I had to help this bird of Horus with my bare hands!). I also knew and had this awareness of what the universe was “doing” towards me, and I remember feeling cocky (!) for still standing up even though I faced so many difficulties.
I took pride in what I wasn’t supposed to take pride in… and I feel so ashamed of myself for doing so... So I was sent this final “experience” which I first thought was to change things for the better – having pulled the tarot card “the Moon”, twice, confirming what was going on…
Because now this beautiful angelic creature came into my life (She spent the night at my place this one time, and at night I heard this electric buzzing sound and saw three stars raising from TBOTL – confirming the way!!!!!). But… She got scared and left me never to come back, when my love for her turned into pure insanity (I had never in my life felt anything so strong – I couldn’t control myself!)… I now started to cry and self destruct, and “changing”– now twice pulling the tarot card “death”.
I call her “the Angel of death” because I have been longing for death ever since she left me… I even woke up several times during this period wishing that it was all a dream, but immediately realizing it wasn't!
"Suicidal feelings are not characteristic of one facing the Abyss - certainly not as a chronic phenomenon."
The book of the law has to be called upon in this case:
*73. Ah! Ah! Death! Death! thou shalt long for death. Death is forbidden, o man, unto thee.
- The length of thy longing shall be the strength of its glory. He that lives long & desires death much is ever the King among the Kings.*
I can relate to this… In fact I “instinctively” relate to this passage. Also this tremendous suffering – being nailed to the cross of suffering – Is also a characteristic that should be attributed to Binah, right?
Finally… I pulled the tarot card “the devil”, confirming what I believe to be “the Night of Pan”… I also had this era of insane creativity… I did stuff never before done (Writing poetry, stories, painting etc. I had never written anything like it in my life, and two women actually started crying while reading some of my simple words!)... Now, not having the need of pulling any more cards… and so to fulfill my destiny… I left my apartment and gave away everything I had… for this life on the street – begging for other people’s money!
Yeah, you heard me! I am a Beggar! Currently staying at this woman’s place, working on the assignment that I “believe” I have been dealt to accomplish…
But now there is doubt, doubt, doubt, only doubt… Because I don’t like the knowledge of who I am and what lies ahead of me... I feel that the assignment is “above my level” to accomplish… It’s way to big and way above my level… I am just this little foolish boy in a grown mans body... I have been playing with matches... and started this fire that I don't know if I am able to handle...
In the vision and the voice it says he doesn't want the death of a sinner, but how am I supposed to survive this? I repent! God I repent! And how am I… I… this unworthy unknowledgeable creature, to accomplish what I think is in my destiny to accomplish?
Also there hasn't been anymore “signs” confirming my path for the past 2 years…”The road” so to say, and all the magick is gone!
The problem I am facing now is that my “will” seem broke… The aspiration gone… Vanished! I don’t seem to have any force left accomplishing what I thought I were supposed to accomplish – and this bothers me and strikes me with the feeling:“How on earth am I to get out of here if I don’t get any serious work done?” This of course frustrates me, since I gave away everything I had for doing what I thought I were supposed to be doing…
I now feel somewhat stranded out here in the wilderness…
Oh God command me and I shall do thy will! But there is no commandment! I don’t feel scared (only of the future) but can’t help wondering; am I lost? But I do my best to be patient, accepting things just the way they are - even though my "reason" bullies me with thinking that this "unproductive" state, is a pure waste of time...I am counteracting these thoughts and feelings by invoking:
“For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.”
I have grewn a lot of patient these years… maturing… I am not so cocky anymore. One actually shouldn't be; forgive me for my immaturity... But… as I said, it has been unbelievably dark but also “joyous”… I have met so many beautiful people on the street and have had so many incredible experiences – which the emptiness of my former life never could have provided me with… I can’t complain… I really shouldn’t… Sometimes I even laugh…
But will I Survive? I don’t know… My inner feeling is that Hadit in my heart won't let me do it if I am truly to accomplish anything... (I have been at the tree where to hang myself twice, but every time i get there i start to giggle and fel joyous!!!) This is the paradox with my experience: Pain (not as much anymore) and this great longing for death, while being able to be joyous and laugh about it!
Thanks for taking me seriously Jim…
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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Well it can be abyss, pit in your soul, despair in your eyes. It can be many other things, or a mix
He that lives long & desires death much is ever the King among the Kings.
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@kasper81 said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I have been down in this hellish pit of suicidal feelings, despair and tears, for 2,5 years now...Has anyone else gone through this experience? Did Crowley ever mention how it was like for him? How did he confirm that Charles Stanfield Jones was going through this experience - did Jones give any written testimony of his experience? Any proof?
If possible; I would like to have the comfort of reading about another mans experience of this dark night of the soul...
Thanks..."
Have you asked this before on this forum?"
No.
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@Takamba said
"Jim used sweeter words when he said he did not see in your descriptions (filtered as they are by a lot of self self self) the characteristics of "going forth with certainty and joy" (which is a description befit of someone who is living their so-called True Will). In the paragraph above this one, I said the same to you, with meaning."
Again, of course I have felt certainty and joy. Doing one's will comes with a satisfaction never felt before - no matter how rough and scary it gets:
"Whatever horrors may afflict the soul, whatever abominations may excite the loathing of the heart, whatever terror may assail the mind, the answer is the same at every stage: ‘How splendid is the Adventure!"
But saying that it doesn't hurt... Saying that I don't long for death... saying that I don't miss my son... Saying that I don't miss the woman I love and the K & C of my Holy Guardian Angel - would be a monstrous lie... I don't know how to really describe something making me want to kill myself, and still being "satisfying"!
I don't know...
I don't miss them "actively"; only when I let my mind wander their way. Most of the time my mind is pretty blank; and the agony of my soul pulls me to stay "present" experiencing this very "now", in a way never before experienced.
I actually have a hard time to "think"! My mind is empty and going forward or backwards in time feels like it requires a lot of energy. I have a hard time being conscious of "what" I think... It's like the gap between my unconscious and my conscious is forging "together" as one.
So "speech" and "thought" is like "one". I can't seem to formulate my speech in my thoughts like before... There are no thoughts preceding my speech. There is only speech so to say... I'm not sure if I like it, because I don't have the same control over what comes out of my mouth anymore, and I have a hard time getting used to this...
I don't know if this rambling makes any sense at all...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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In systematically working the Paths of the Tree, one gains a progressive sense of ownership or mastery over them. This happens sequentially in initiation systems such as Temple of Thelema or A.'. A.'..
But when one is opened to a new grade, the sphere of that grade is impacted by Paths that touch it which you haven't yet mastered. In the cause-effect continuum, you are not "at cause" for these energies, but are "at effect" of them - exposed to them without significant mastery of their particular modes of consciousness.
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"I have been down in this hellish pit of suicidal feelings, despair and tears, for 2,5 years now...
Has anyone else gone through this experience?"
I've had several "episodes" like this in my life. I just came out of one. IMHO, you're depressed. What helps me? I have a good psyhcotherapist. By good I mean someone who recommends anti-depressants or "shock therapy" or equally drastic and usually unncessary measures only as last resorts and who his very skilled in Rational Emotive Behavior, Cognitive Behavior and Dialectical Behavior therapies.
I'm not saying this will work for you so it's not really advice.
However, suicidal feelings and depression are serious. How hard would it be for you to get a copy of Albert Ellis' A Guide To Rational Living and David D. Burns' Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy (they both are cheap in paperback; I think I paid 6 bucks for the latter title and mostl libaries have them)? If you can, start reading them immediately and find a sympathetic therapist.
"Did Crowley ever mention how it was like for him?"
If the biography Perdurabo is accurate (he leans heavily on AC's diaries), he experienced depression several times in his life, and doubt about Thelema and his Office. -
"
If I put it like this, at first It sure wasn’t fun being told by my “inner self” to “question” my marriage and my feelings towards my earlier partner – finally actually ending up divorcing her… I was at first very scared and emotionally upset by this deep inner sense rising to the surface of my conscious mind… I therefore immediately suppressed it – for several months! When it once again caught me unguarded… I then understood that I had to “listen” and this time when starting to think about my marriage and our life together – It made perfect sense, and therefore I divorced my wife…Later my HGA appeared and her name is ***** and she later left me with all these tears and pain...
I long for her every day
Does it sound more reasonable now Jim?"
I guess I'm wondering if at any point you tried to use magick to affect the mundane, particularly after you contacted the HGA. If so how did that go for you?
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@landis said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I have been down in this hellish pit of suicidal feelings, despair and tears, for 2,5 years now...
Has anyone else gone through this experience?"@landis said
"I've had several "episodes" like this in my life. I just came out of one. IMHO, you're depressed. "
"Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I ALSO have had several "episodes" of what you call depression and I know perfectly well how to differ a depression from what I'm going through. The first thing that differs is the "pain", inside. There is no pain in depression, there is perhaps a little and more "greyness" and "sadness."
Read again, what I describe here can’t be connected to a simple “depression”:
*“I don’t really know how to describe the experience of it other than it’s just 100’s of hours of tears – buckets of tears! Agony and the most horrible pain… In the beginning of this experience I remember watching this episode of Dr House, and saw a man lying on his deathbed, dying – can you believe it, but I actually felt sincere jealousy!!! And cried out:
“How nice for him! Oh god how nice for him! I want also!”*
It actually felt like finding yourself in the middle of a desert, seeing another man involved in drinking and pouring water all over him – when you are dried up, dying from thirst and having no water for yourself. And I have never in my life before and since, felt sincere JEALOUSY from seeing another man die! NEVER!
Now, this is the place where I am at:
Here abideth terror, and the blind ache of the Soul…[] And he said: Thou hast entered the night; dost thou yet lust for day? Sorrow is my name and affliction. I am girt about with tribulation. Here still hangs the Crucified One, and here the Mother weeps over the children that she hath not borne. Sterility is my name and desolation. Intolerable is thine ache, and incurable thy wound.”
So... from your and all the post – I can see where all this is going:
“but lest there be folly, he shall comment thereupon by the wisdom of Ra-Hoor-Khuit.
Therefore let me say this: I didn’t start this topic because I need psychological advice, that part should have been dealt with and was dealt with many years ago. I am no beginner or someone just stumbling over magick and starting to feel “a little bad”. I have been into this for many years working with trauma, depression and my own behavior etc.
I have this intuitive feeling – always had – that everything has to be “lived through” whole heartedly not trying to escape the pain for one bit – you hear me!? Not for one single simple bit - to hell with antidepressants! You should know this and the following verse is what should bring comfort to a suffering man:
9. Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains.
I already know where I am…KNOW… I just don’t have what Jim E. has: the knowledge to put it in simple and plain words. Therefore I don’t have to have this analyzed for me… Even though I appreciated some comments from Jim, since from reading between the lines, he tells my “understanding” that he has obviously lived through it, or has come very close... He can’t really relate to me and maybe because: “The gross must pass through fire”. I figure that’s why this experience is so very hard on me.
I have so much information that I could share – but won’t… Like the experience preceding me taking the Oath of the Abyss: I’m thinking of the K & C of one’s Holy Guardian Angel. Now that “K” actually meant me having KNOWLEDGE that I didn’t have before… Knowledge that can’t be retrieved from a book – now that is a real testimony to myself confirming the path and my whereabouts... later came the “complete” separation and departure of mine Angel…
Leaving me in this tremendous pain that has been going on for 2,5 years…
What I don’t know is if I will succeed in crossing… what will happen… I don’t know… My life is in the hands of the Lord… and probably will never be in the hands of any shrink.
I know I went down that path opening up my heart in this forum, giving from my own experience to the ignorant. I don’t regret it since sooner or later I will have to deal with a lot people that will disapprove with me; try to pull me down; attacking my heart etc. – so it was necessary and a part of my “training”.
Now, what I was asking was: Did Crowley leave any record of his own experience? Did Frater Achad do it? Does somebody else want to share his own experience?
Patrick Ossoski came closest telling me “sure” Crowley left a record – but was more eager to correct me, than to help, and then to point out the source of his claim.
So the questions still remain and by now I guess they won’t be answered at all…
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
PS.
Also You simply don’t listen… My second post said this:
“I wasn't asking for any advice; since there are no advices that could possibly help me... But thanks anyway...”
It is YOU who should be asking me for advice, not the other way around, this is why your path will be difficult, since you obviously fail to see a superior when you face one (And being your superior doesn’t make me better! It makes me MORE experienced!). Like I see mine in these forums – this man, my senior, almost twice my age. And here I hang around waiting like a little boy for my spiritual father to spoon-feed me with his tremendous knowledge and experience…
This is why old people today are humiliated and shunned for being senile. The problem with the young having no respect for authority… It’s all about order, and there is today no order in the world of men… Only ignorance… Now I see that you are older than me, so you have to apologize me for using this “tone”.
Therefore I shall do thee the honor of reading your post one more time and see if there is anything for me to extract from it…I always listen, always trying to learn, even from little children… Perhaps it’s not what you intended me to learn, but that doesn’t matter…
Also while we speak and randomly:
People talk of “super consciousness” that mankind is about to go into this new mode of higher consciousness. I think they have mistaken themselves with “knowledge” being a part of the divine. Since man no longer doesn’t understand "simplicity" (truth!), for instance, several of the biblical commandments, he has forgotten about what our forefathers knew about “law and order” several thousand years ago!!!
Now that is called sheer ignorance…
I am therefore not that optimistic, just seeing a simple television show proves my point on man living in sin and also of this very dumbed down society…
There is information and knowledge everywhere and still man is destroying life…
It’s the teachings of Christ that once again has to be brought to the world, the teaching of all prophets that once again has to be revived and brought to the world, with the TBOTL and a few corrections on women, gays, sex (the earlier Osirian suppression of “the Nepesh”) “There is no god but man” etc.
But the lesson is this: ORDER is EVERYTHING… Think of the judge in a court room crying: ORDER! He doesn’t seek to argue, he doesn’t care how right you think you are. He wants ORDER and so do I…
This is what we have forgotten about and what will have to be learned by mankind once again… And less of this new age “mumbo-jumbo” of us all entering an enlightened era… The fool doesn’t know what is coming and what will hit him – we all better start thinking of our own salvation and humble ourselves – before thinking of super consciousness!
Every prophet has come to our world with the intention of restoring order – and base it upon a few principles like the 10 commandments – and this is what will happen once again… You wait and see my friend…
I’m sorry but I am old fashioned and I also got a bit of a temper… You are a good man and I won’t use this tone of mine against you ever again. You were the one having to take the blow that others before you provoked.
Peace and much love!
DS.
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"[]... we all better start thinking of our own salvation and humble ourselves – before thinking of super consciousness! "
I for once need to learn how to humble myself... I apologize for the harsh tone in my post and for coming to rushed conclusions of what you were saying. I know you were just trying to be helpful...
Perhaps that Shrink of yours isn't such a bad suggestion after all.
Btw I read Perdurabo many years ago, but I can't remember him being very specific about Crowley's "abyss-experience".
93 93/93
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"
I ALSO have had several "episodes" of what you call depression and I know perfectly well how to differ a depression from what I'm going through. The first thing that differs is the "pain", inside. There is no pain in depression, there is perhaps a little and more "greyness" and "sadness."Read again, what I describe here can’t be connected to a simple “depression” "
That's to my point. IMHO, it's not "simple" depression, it's serious depression. One of the hallmarks of serious depression is that you believe wholeheartedly that what you're going through is completely unique and/or that nothing or no one could possibly ever help you. That's why serious depression can be so sinister. IMHO, you need professional help and internet forums are not going to serve your needs.
There is a strong relationship between Crowley's advice to "learn to control thought" in Liber Librae (v. 18, and in the preceding and following advice therein) and what Dr. Burns says in Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy.
"Your emotions result entirely from the way you look at things. It is an obvious neurological fact that before you can experience any event, you must process it with your mind and give it meaning. You must understand what is happening to you before you can feel it.
If your understanding of what is happening is accurate, your emotions will be normal. If your perception is twisted and distorted in some way, your emotional response will be abnormal. Depression falls into this category. It is always the result of mental "static'--distortions. Your blue moods can be compared to the scratchy music coming from a radio that is not properly tuned to the station. The problem is not that the tubes or transistors are blown out or defective, or that the signal from the radio stations is distorted as a result of bad weather. You just simply have to adjust the dials. When you learn to bring aout this mental tuning, the music will come through clearly again and your depression will lift.
Some readers--maybe you--will experience a pang of despair when they read that paragraph. Yet there is nothing upsetting about it. If anything, the paragraph should bring hope. Then what caused your mood to plunge as you were reading? It was your thought, "For other people a little tuning may suffice. But I'm the radio that is broken beyond repair. My tubes are blown out. I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness! (Harper: 2009. Pp. 29-31. Italics are Burns'; bolds and underlines are mine.)"
Burns calls these "mental delusions" cognitive distortions. Here's a link to them.
Like I said, I'm not offering advice, just my humble opinions. What have you got to lose? Look into it. The worst that could happen if you do is that you can dismiss it as rubbish.
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"I’m sorry but I am old fashioned and I also got a bit of a temper… You are a good man and I won’t use this tone of mine against you ever again. You were the one having to take the blow that others before you provoked.
Peace and much love!
DS."
Don't sweat it. I can take the blows. I've been through a lot. I did not take it personally. Maybe my empathy is my own delusion, but I think I have at least some clue as to what you're experiencing.
Peace and love back at you.
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PS:
I thougth "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source, and that as such "crossing" it is not necessarily a "negative" experience?
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@landis said
"PS:
I thougth "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source, and that as such "crossing" it is not necessarily a "negative" experience?"
That's not a bad way to put it, which is why it is generally agreed that the Hawk Headed Child is not encountering "crossing the Abyss" as he believes. His life may feel abysmal to him, and there are numerous abysses in life we can fall into, but not to be confused with the journey across reality where the danger is actually to fall into the beliefs of "because."
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@landis said
"Maybe my empathy is my own delusion, but I think I have at least some clue as to what you're experiencing."
Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask you a personal question: Can you make yourself: Vulnerable... or are you running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?
I ask because I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall...
I know you think you know what I suffer from! You are very stubborn (The wall thing!) And if I would have had the problems you think that I have - you would be the one I would like to talk to...
But I don't... And I also know it doesn't matter what I say to you, because it would be like going to the shrink and trying to convince him that I am not sick and he responds by saying:"What you are saying now is also a symptom of your disease!"
There is no way I can win this argument... No way in hell, you are to stubborn for that (The wall thing)... No hard feelings but your heart is shut and I can feel it...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Takamba said
"
@landis said
"PS:I thougth "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source, and that as such "crossing" it is not necessarily a "negative" experience?"
That's not a bad way to put it, which is why it is generally agreed that the Hawk Headed Child is not encountering "crossing the Abyss" as he believes. His life may feel abysmal to him, and there are numerous abysses in life we can fall into, but not to be confused with the journey across reality where the danger is actually to fall into the beliefs of "because.""
Landis, Takamba,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
What you guys are talking about sounds like a sunday pick nick... It makes me think of the time before meeting my HGA: "The dark night of the soul". During this period of my life I had to overcome many fears that "because" tried to sweep beneath the carpet by "rationalizing". I had to be strong; be decisive; not to think in endless loops show courage and to move forward...
But now that I recall, being down here in the darkness... In the beginning of my experience 2,5 years ago I went against my reason all the time! I did many things which my reason questioned and protested against... Ahhh and still does, like now when I don't get any work done! And I feel it's a pure waste of time... Thanks for reminding me!
Why would people fear the abyss? If there was only such a simple as a thing as avoiding falling prey for "because"? That is ridiculous! Of course there is suffering - more than you can possibly imagine. What is it that you "Tambaka" fail to understand with "The vision and the voice?" Let me try to bring you some understanding:
Here abideth terror, and the blind ache of the Soul…[] And he said: Thou hast entered the night; dost thou yet lust for day? Sorrow is my name and affliction. I am girt about with tribulation. Here still hangs the Crucified One, and here the Mother weeps over the children that she hath not borne. Sterility is my name and desolation. Intolerable is thine ache, and incurable thy wound.”
What part is it that YOU don't understand? "blind ache of the Soul"? "Sorrow is my name and affliction"? "Intolerable is thine ache, and incurable thy wound."?Do you think these are words of expression!? I have LIVED those words daily for 2,5 years - so please show some **** respect! Actually suffering is a "sacrament" and that is what the Master of the Temple understands... starting to...
My experience is negative, but then also positive, but why pay attention to that which contradict your own reasoning?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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Where's your 7=4 thesis?
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@landis said
"Maybe my empathy is my own delusion, but I think I have at least some clue as to what you're experiencing."Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask you a personal question: Can you make yourself: Vulnerable... or are you running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?
I ask because I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall...
I know you think you know what I suffer from! You are very stubborn (The wall thing!) And if I would have had the problems you think that I have - you would be the one I would like to talk to...
But I don't... And I also know it doesn't matter what I say to you, because it would be like going to the shrink and trying to convince him that I am not sick and he responds by saying:"What you are saying now is also a symptom of your disease!"
There is no way I can win this argument... No way in hell, you are to stubborn for that (The wall thing)... No hard feelings but your heart is shut and I can feel it...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace"
Have you read the books I recommended? If not, are you going to? If you're in that much pain you have little or nothing to lose.