Magick as a test for thelema
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@Los said
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"Because my faith is actually constant and strong."
Not sure what you mean by "faith," but if you're talking about just blindly trusting stuff, that's anathema to Thelema.
"It's mostly my thoughts and what i say that are still out of control, and thus mess up with my actions and will"
Can you give a specific, practical example of what you mean?"
By faith, i mean that if i really want something, i can get it. Not 100% of course, but i know i can be very strong and successful in many fields.
The big issue is "what to do?!", "what do i want?!", "what to focus on?!"... i just dont know anymore(for a year or so).
My thoughts are beating each other up, every thought makes its contrary rise equally and i just dont know what to choose, everything feels the same. And no i'm not THAT depressed
But i could become so, soon, if i dont manage to deal with this seriously.By speech, basically is the same thing as thought, except i project it externally. Thus, when talking to someone, i rarely know anymore what do i want from the interaction. I can say a thing and the contrary in a minute, and it doesnt bother me in real time. It bothers me afterwards, when i think "damn, what a pointless interaction". So it's getting difficult socialy also. I'm losing interest in people and that's a sad thing. But how could it be otherwise if i dont have interest in my own thoughts in the first place?
Also there's some procrastination. Again because of those damn thoughts that eat each other up.
Maybe the most important help, i think, to start with, could be to find an anchor in the physical world that really motivates me to get better at, like when i had martial arts or psychology as a goal to succeed in. But i dont have any goal anymore except the great work. And yes i know the great work doesnt work this way... I'm just having trouble getting things working together and finding interest in it. I feel pretty lost and alone again. Not in the core of my being. That's why i said i may have obtain control of my "foundations". I cannot fall in melancholy anymore, for instance. But my personality is pretty fucked up.
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@Horus Amin said
"The big issue is "what to do?!", "what do i want?!", "what to focus on?!"... i just dont know anymore(for a year or so).
My thoughts are beating each other up, every thought makes its contrary rise equally and i just dont know what to choose, everything feels the same. And no i'm not THAT depressed
But i could become so, soon, if i dont manage to deal with this seriously."My sense, from reading this, is that you're looking for something to guide you a lot more consciously than the True Will actually does. It's in looking for that guide, or wanting that guide, that you're going wrong.
There's never going to be this splendid Aha! moment where you realize something like, "It's my will to become a licensed massage therapist and practice in Paris for four years!"
The True Will is found right here, right now. For example, right now, shut down your conscious thoughts and just pay attention to what it is that you authentically want to do now -- the real you, underneath your ideas about "who you are" or "where you are on the Tree of Life" or "what ordeal you're undergoing" or "what you should be doing next" etc.
You have to listen, and it takes time to get good at listening because what your Self wants may not be what your thoughts are telling you that you want. You have to listen.
And it's probably not going to be anything world shattering. Maybe you want a sandwich right now. So cool. That's your True Will right now. Get up and make a sandwich. Maybe after that you'll authentically desire to take a walk. Or watch something on Netflix. Or call someone you haven't spoken to in years. Or call someone you saw earlier today. I don't know what your Will is, and neither will you until you pay attention to it, underneath the layers of conscious thoughts and ideas about what you "should" be doing.
Maybe, if you keep this up, a pattern will emerge, and you'll find that your Will is driving you to do X, Y, or Z kind of work. Didn't you mention you're a therapist? So maybe your Will will drive you to start a private practice or try to work for some kind of agency. That would be okay. Or maybe your Will will just involve lots of little things, not doing anything grand in terms of "life goals" for a while but just meeting whatever comes your way for the time being. That's okay, too.
You can't try to make your Will "fit" anything in particular. It doesn't necessarily "have to" be anything.
Just listen. It's there.
"But i dont have any goal anymore except the great work. And yes i know the great work doesnt work this way... I'm just having trouble getting things working together and finding interest in it."
Right. The ultimate end of the Great Work is to give up doing the Great Work because you'll realize that the Great Work was unnecessary to begin with. So saying that all you want to do is the Great Work is indeed counter-productive.
Maybe this will help: True Will is what you do, not what you think about, not what you feel, not who you think you are. So pay attention to what your Self is telling you what it wants to do, and do it. It's in the go-ing that you accomplish the Will, not anything else.
Don't sit around wondering if you have "control of your foundations." I can't help but feel that all this occult lingo is an enormous obstacle for you. If I were in your position, I would do some mindfulness exercises to still the thoughts and then I would act on how I think I'm authentically feeling.
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Granted, Los, that all makes logical sense - and the mindfulness exercises are always a great idea for anyone, but why bother to write parts two and three of Liber ABA if part one was all that really worked? Why chase Enochian pathways also? Just gather your mind about you and use logic and common sense to determine what the current response to life should be? That's it? "The Great Work was unnecessary to begin with."
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@Los said
"....
If I were in your position, I would do some mindfulness exercises to still the thoughts and then I would act on how I think I'm authentically feeling."Thanks. I got it i'm wrong searching for "something" to "anchor" the great work. It may be the best way not to find it if there's such thing to find anyway.
I realise it's a bad habit i always had. Similar to fetichism or addiction mechanism. There's lust for results and mental masturbation about it.
It just feels so bad having nothing to get good at.
Well, maybe i could get good at not having to rely on being good at something for happiness. Even better, onto nothing external. That's such a weird idea for me, i'd rather have a beer with the roswell grey man at the local pub.Also, i feel contradiction with what i thought i had to do to be in the thelemic path. Thelema is what i trust most. That's what i value most. I'd trust the best thelemites before any one else. Crowley is the best man ever for me. When i read his "confessions", i was crying like a little girl watching a romantic drama. It never happened to me with anything else. I felt such a huge empathy and love for the beast. I just wanted to hug him and say thanks for all he's done and shared. Like he was my HGA or something. I know it's the right path. But i might have to forget my first impressions about how to make it my own path.
Because when i read it first, i thought the first thing i have to do is get very good at everything i do. I was like "ok, Crowley was the best in climbing and poetry, i must be the best in two fields also, and also in poetry to honor him". i know it's bullshit. That's watching the finger of Crowley instead of watching what he's pointing at with the finger.
I'm realising i never thought nor acted by myself, and even less by the self. That's like a tsunami coming my way.
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@Takamba said
"Just gather your mind about you and use logic and common sense to determine what the current response to life should be? That's it?"
The True Will isn't "logical" or "rational." There's no "reason" for the True Will to be what it is, so you can't think your way to it: you just have to observe it. [Hence, the curse on Because in the Book of the Law. If you're basing your actions on a path that you've reasoned must be a "good" one, then you're following a thought, not the Will]
It takes a lot of practice to get good at discovering and implementing the Will *
"why bother to write parts two and three of Liber ABA if part one was all that really worked? Why chase Enochian pathways also?"
Because, as Crowley explicitly said, mysticism and magick are two opposite ways to approach the same task. If mysticism stops thought to enable us to look past thought, magick excites thought so as to distract the mind and let us look past it.
See Liber Samekh, where Crowley explicitly states that the purpose of the ritual is to keep the magician physically, mentally, and astrally preoccupied so that he can look past all of it and concentrate on his "deepest Self."
See also the introduction to Magick in Theory and Practice (part 3 of Book 4), where Crowley says, point blank, " The sincere student will discover, behind the symbolic technicalities of this book, a practical method [...] to discriminate between what he actually is, and what he has fondly imagined himself to be."
In other words, the "symbolic technicalities" of ritual magick conceal practical approaches to Thelema.
Whether a student uses magick or mysticism or both, the end result is the same, and it needs to be practiced in daily life, in perceiving and course-correcting for the True Will in day to day matter, producing real practical changes.
If a student doesn't do that, then all the "work" is nothing more than entertainment.
""The Great Work was unnecessary to begin with.""
It takes quite a lot of work to realize how unnecessary it is.
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@Horus Amin said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Meditating on my experiences with magick, something strikes me. My (stricly magick)power is not consistant, it vaciliates a lot. I had some very intense things happening, which i believe are way above my level. On the other hand, it happened to me to struggle with some basics for a very long time.
So, basically, my point is by observing when the magick is strong, according to context and goal(what the magick is applied onto), it can help a lot to get closer to the true will.
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Interesting observation. I certainly don't think that it applies in my case, because I have done similar spells for the same thing, where the first one did not work, and the second one did. So the reason it did not work must have been some other reason. Also I have done magick to effect change while at my lowest, and I felt that far from dragging me down further, it lifted me up and improved me.
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@Horus Amin said
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@Los said
"....
If I were in your position, I would do some mindfulness exercises to still the thoughts and then I would act on how I think I'm authentically feeling."Thanks. I got it i'm wrong searching for "something" to "anchor" the great work. It may be the best way not to find it if there's such thing to find anyway.
I realise it's a bad habit i always had. Similar to fetichism or addiction mechanism. There's lust for results and mental masturbation about it.
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Well, what I used to do was follow and do what some other person told me to do with my life, this was before I ever got into thelema. That ended in disaster, of course, but just because I no longer followed the course someone else set out for me, didn't mean I suddenly had all the answers. Later on I thought I figured out what I wanted to do, but like Crowley I had, and still to some extent, do not know the best way to go about doing it.
In fact doing this great thing has lead me away from joining the A.A or any thelemic organizations, but still I have my doubts that I am making the best decisions about doing the thing I have determined to do. -
@Horus Amin said
"Jim... does what i quoted from you applies to all grades?"
I think so, yes. (One hesitates ever making "no exceptions" statements, but it seems to me that this is so.)
"I mean, for instance, is an adept still supposed to deal with such questions?"
The cited binary still proves true. That is, when challenged, you need (for example) to decide whether the right course of action is to persist (test of perseverance) or to drop a particular path as untrue to your way (test of discrimination). And, as in earlier stages, there is no problem decided at all if you know, ahead of time, whether it's a "stick with it" or "drop it and get onto your own path" decision.
"Any tip on how to get better at this precise... ordeal?!"
The road to greater happiness is: good choices.
The road to good choices is: learn discrimination.
The road to learning discrimination is: bad choices.Therefore, make all the bad choices you can. They'll eventually set you on the right track.
PS - One of the surest signs of initiation is the development of an increasingly keen "truth sense." The closer one gets to the Angel, the louder and surer are one's inner promptings toward right choices. So the real key is: Just keep on keeping on, move through the grades, and be witness to the consequences of your wrong choices.
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@Shadow Self said
" Also I have done magick to effect change while at my lowest, and I felt that far from dragging me down further, it lifted me up and improved me."
Dont you think that's the act of magick and not the results of it that made you feel better?
It is conventional to oppose mysticism and magick, but i dont agree totally. Actually, magick is a form of yoga, for me.
For instance, when you perform LBRP, you unite with the elements, with light, and so on.
Also, reciprocaly, i'd say any mysticism is a form of magick, because it creates change within the practicioner.
I always feel magick make me feel better...
And, when i really want to achieve a precise goal, i tend to focus more on yoga than magick
I'll put myself in the most calm state possible, unite with the whole universe, and then just do what i have to do, without thinking about it... not doing spells or something.The best use of triangle of manifestation i found is to change myself, to work on alchemical transmutation, not to change external stuff.
But maybe i should try the more classic way.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
The road to greater happiness is: good choices.
The road to good choices is: learn discrimination.
The road to learning discrimination is: bad choices.Therefore, make all the bad choices you can. They'll eventually set you on the right track.
PS - One of the surest signs of initiation is the development of an increasingly keen "truth sense." The closer one gets to the Angel, the louder and surer are one's inner promptings toward right choices. So the real key is: Just keep on keeping on, move through the grades, and be witness to the consequences of your wrong choices."
Wow...Thanks. I read it like 20 times in a row and contemplated it. Way more subtle than it looks.
Combining this whith what Los said should work very well...
Actually, i already feel a significant difference.It gets clearer concerning what i really feel, and what i really witness. It's just so contradicting logic, my past plans, and what people expect from me, that it is difficult to accept. There are like clouds of thoughts-forms packed with libido that float around me telling me "no ! keep on feeding me ! you have no right letting me down". Well, i have. I think i'm done with them. I realise it's a feeling that was real both before and after initiation. It may be true and i may just have to listen to it, and see for myself the results.
It feels better this way.
I'm realising the external nature of thoughts right now, and how those fucking thought-forms and patterns really feel like vampires feeding on the will, energy, and freedom.
They will even disguise themselves as "initiation stuff" sometimes, but really, they are the same demons. When discrimination is applied on them, they go like "aaaaaaaaaaah"... they get hurt ! When the fake questions start to vanish, it is easier to actually feel and witness.
And then, next action will tell even better.
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@kasper81 said
"don't you slip-up there by quoting from Crowley who, evidently lacked self-awareness for most of his life?"
Kasper,
Los has been conducting himself with civility and respect for others. (Yes, he gets frustrated and exasperated at times like the rest of us. Still, he has kept his commit to approach his participation here graciously.)
There might have been a sardonic grin hidden in your post, a bit of a niggling the needle. Still, it seems advantageous to respond with civility more than sarcasm.
Just a thought.
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@kasper81 said
"don't you slip-up there by quoting from Crowley who, evidently lacked self-awareness for most of his life?"
The implication here is that you think I am of the opinion that Crowley "lacked self-awareness."
I'm not really following you. If I had to guess, I would predict that your implicit argument is something like, "Well, Crowley believed in goblins, and Los thinks that anyone who believes in goblins lacks self-awareness, so Los must think that Crowley lacked self-awareness!"
There are a number of things wrong with that argument, beginning with the fact that I don't think goblin-believers "lack self-awareness" necessarily: I think they are very wrong about at least one of their ideas about the universe (and likely many other ideas), and I think that their false ideas very often hinder them from discovering or fully expressing their True Wills.
But more important, I think it's an open question how much Crowley actually "believed" in this supernatural stuff. To give you a for instance, he's on record as explicitly saying that it doesn't matter whether past life memories are nothing more than fantasies because there is value in fiction (like Aesop's fables, he points out). So he "believes" in reincarnation not in the sense that he thinks it's factually true but in the sense that "Sure this may not be true, but what they hey, I'll accept it because there can be value in fictions."
That's not what most people mean when they say they believe a claim.
I consider it a real possibility that Crowley did not "believe" in many of these supernatural claims in the way that other people do and that Crowley was much more skeptical than many people assume.
But even discounting that and assuming that Crowley just blindly and stupidly accepted all manner of claims for which no one -- not even he -- had sufficient evidence...we still have no way of knowing whether or not Crowley discovered or was following his True Will.
It's both unknowable to us and irrelevant to us.
What we have is Crowley's system, and from that system we can draw sound conclusions about what a True Will is, how one goes about discovering a True Will, and the relationship of that system to skepticism. These points are not affected in the least by Crowley's personal beliefs about the supernatural or the degree to which Crowley himself succeeded in practicing the system that he developed.
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Cool
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They way I see it is "magic forces" act upon the "forces of chance". Science cannot explain the reason behind "chance" or the laws dictating probability. Whatever is directing this, COULD be what we would call "magic" at work, or the divine, or that's a catch phrase for some hidden mechanic that enables "magic". Everything is reduced to mind anyway, all our perceptions, all experienced phenomena, is turned into "patterns" interpreted within the brain. This being the case, IF magic acts upon directing the foundation of chance, and so the infinite factors that bring about an experience, any experience, then even those "chance encounters" entirely of our "imagination" could be directed, or not, if that's what a person believes or expects. This would generate no real results in a number of cases, for example with the skeptic, or the doubt rubbing off onto another performing the same task.
Regardless, magic occurs, as AC points out, as if it were chance or luck or coincidence, which even Los admits occurred with him. Yes, you can "explain" it away, or if doubtedly looked for, of course obtain the negative results you truly believe will occur. You then set yourself up for failure. Again, we are locked within our heads, and so what we perceive as "reality" is a mental construct, perhaps even allowing some greater range who have opened themselves to it.
The main point is, if we cannot truly even explain the phenomena of "chance", how can we not accept this can be effected in a manner beyond our ability to detect in a mundane manner? Magic no doubt lies in this "higher" place superior (figuratively) to natural laws, laws we still do not know everything about. "Goblins" may be just imaginary to some who "invoke" that, and valid and real & useful to others.
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@Jason R said
"Regardless, magic occurs, as AC points out, as if it were chance or luck or coincidence, which even Los admits occurred with him."
Coincidences occur all the time. I had coincidences happen to me today. Coincidences are nothing special.
How do you distinguish a "successful act of magic" from an act of magic that seems successful but is in fact just a coincidence?
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@Los said
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@Jason R said
"Regardless, magic occurs, as AC points out, as if it were chance or luck or coincidence, which even Los admits occurred with him."Coincidences occur all the time. I had coincidences happen to me today. Coincidences are nothing special.
How do you distinguish a "successful act of magic" from an act of magic that seems successful but is in fact just a coincidence?"
Reread what I said. I was talking about us (science) not totally understanding the laws behind "chance". Yes, magic may SEEM like luck, or coincidence, yet of course directed, luck manifested, by way of manipulating the "force" directing happenstance. The would be skeptic sees just wild luck, "wow that seemed to work, I got the results I wanted, but it was just a crazy coincidence." Etc. Ive done this MANY times, and trust me, it would have to be the most UNBELIEVABLE good luck or coincidence imagineable. We differentiate these results by way of how "unlikely" it was, and how perfect the results reflect our intented outcome, including timing
etc.Again, my point was that of course, those who "see" it as luck, who BELIEVE and expect just "luck" and that it is impossible, create the very result this mind set implies.
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@Jason R said
"We differentiate these results by way of how "unlikely" it was, and how perfect the results reflect our intented outcome, including timing"
That's confirmation bias.
If a person does a ritual to -- for example -- obtain money, then he's going to be looking for scenarios that would count as a "hit" for that result. Potential "hits" could include finding money in the street, having a friend pay back a loan, getting offered a job, discovering that one had budgeted incorrectly (and thus has more money than one expected this month), being offered a scholarship or grant, making an unexpected sale, winning some kind of contest with prize money, etc.
If you wait long enough, something like that is going to happen to you. Sometimes, it'll seem extremely "unlikely" or "miraculous."
It demonstrates nothing.
Again: we know that coincidences happen, all the time, without any magic whatsoever. I don't do magic for "results" and coincidences happen to me all the time. There's no way to distinguish an act of magic that "works" from an act of magic that just seems to work but is in fact just regular ol' coincidence.
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@Los said
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@Jason R said
"We differentiate these results by way of how "unlikely" it was, and how perfect the results reflect our intented outcome, including timing"That's confirmation bias.
If a person does a ritual to -- for example -- obtain money, then he's going to be looking for scenarios that would count as a "hit" for that result. Potential "hits" could include finding money in the street, having a friend pay back a loan, getting offered a job, discovering that one had budgeted incorrectly (and thus has more money than one expected this month), being offered a scholarship or grant, making an unexpected sale, winning some kind of contest with prize money, etc.
If you wait long enough, something like that is going to happen to you. Sometimes, it'll seem extremely "unlikely" or "miraculous."
It demonstrates nothing.
Again: we know that coincidences happen, all the time, without any magic whatsoever. I don't do magic for "results" and coincidences happen to me all the time. There's no way to distinguish an act of magic that "works" from an act of magic that just seems to work but is in fact just regular ol' coincidence."
Knew this was going to be your come back - to which I reply, the guard against this is a well kept and detailed journal. If one is honest and records their attempts, intended results, times, and results, including failures (realistically) this bias is at the very least diminished.