My Venus working experience
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@Fr Bzalel said
" couple of hour later after the ceremony she started to fight with me and told "Why we didnt have have hot sex these days? Are u looking for someone else? Are you going to cheat on me? Bah blahh..""
I have to agree that your post at least reads as if you're not interested in what she has to say (i.e. representing her valid concerns as "Bah Blahh"). Communication is probably the most important part of maintaining a relationship, so you had best practice the magical technique of invocation -- that is, assuming the "passive" role of waiting for the Spirit to indwell the temple or, to put it another way, shutting up and actually listening to what is being said. Just as a proper invocation is contact with an Other, so too is properly listening to someone contact with an Other perspective that should be, in some sense, transformative (or at least shatter your false ideas about the situation).
It turns out that your partner is concerned about your sex life as well, and that shared concern is the root of a productive discussion that has to happen. Why is it that your sex life has gone "cold"? Is this a phase that one or both of you is going through? Is it the natural result of familiarity or aging? How important is a "hot" sex life to each one of you?
These are incredibly important questions that only the two of you can answer. There's no magic rain dance you can do to avoid having to come to terms with these issues.
I'd say that your ritual accomplished virtually nothing, except maybe to make you aware of exactly how important this issue is to you.
"she hugged and kissed me and told me she's going to be a Thelemite too!
"So is this your goal? Just get her to be a Thelemite? Make her think like you? Make her start practicing Tantra? I dunno, that all strikes me as a really superficial "solution," if you're interested in preserving the relationship (and not just the sexual aspect of it).
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@Takamba said
"Veronica, I missed the part where he said he told his partner about it"
I didn't miss it at all....
His actions and behaviors speak louder then words. While he did not directly say so he certainly choose words that implied she is aware of his beliefs and his actions on that. YMMV, but that was my understanding of what he said.
Btw I know quite a few midwives who will insist that the best way to clean up all the blood and feces from the birthing process is to use hot water, so while many think the action of boiling water is just busy work for the father.....it's not.. its necessary and fills a need, otherwise the fathers would be charged with some completely useless task like making confetti.
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I really appreciate Veronica's no nonsense recommendation for how to create (sexual) intimacy. Deliciously insightful and inspiring. I do not, however, agree that the ritual *as described *was inappropriate or demonstrated an intent or objective of subjugation or dominion. And I don't think he owed it to his partner to tell her about it (though that might have made the operation more effective).
If nothing else, designing and performing this ritual lent to its description here, which prompted this dialogue and the practical advice he's now received to achieve hot passionate sex in a long-term, sober context. That's magick. Perhaps the ritual also attuned the consciousness of the operant along the lines intended, and that by expressing himself in this way, he became more closely aware of and connected with his own unobstructed need for love. That's magick too. The reported result is that his partner was effected, and of all the things she might have been crying about in that moment, she apparently accessed a disconnect with regards to sexual desire. Thrice magickal.
As for oppressiveness, I didn't see any part of the described ritual that would operate to deprive the partner of her True Will, and I personally don't think trying to influence a situation with someone else favorably is necessarily an act of power over or dominion. Plus, much like writing a love sonnet can focus the mind and heart, it might be that performing a ritual like the one described here can serve to upraise the awareness of the operant.
For instance, he might have been thinking at the time what he really wanted to achieve is a woman who greets him in a nightgown and fuzzy slippers with a martini in hand, ready and pliable, and having fully tended to all her daily tasks tirelessly and without complaint. Sure. He might have had that kind of immature idea in his mind. But what he expressed with his acts and incantations, as far as I can tell from the ritual as described, was a powerful attunement to Venus. He wasn't summoning an elemental to do his bidding. He was reaching further than that, right up to the Goddess of Love herself and, in a manner of speaking, beseeching her for aid.
I'm inclined to trust she'll give it to him, and in a way that responds to his true innermost needs and those of his partner. And it seems to me that Tantra, which wholeheartedly embraces the Goddess, is not a bad place for them to start.
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@David S said
" I don't think he owed it to his partner to tell her about it (though that might have made the operation more effective).
"
Why???I would tend to think exactly the opposite. The less you tell the more it works isnt it?
Because if you dont tell anything, it hits on an unconscious level, without creating resistances nor rationalisations. Whereas if you tell, it can:
.create resistances
.induce rationalisation
.imply lack of confidence
... and so onWhat is the point of your thought?!
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Regarding this particular situation, I agree with Veronica
(If not necessarily in line with some of her more general comments...
That being neither here nor there... )I am going to take a page from Los play book:
Did you really consider this from a rational stand point?
Moving along with Veronica's sentiment:
You desired greater intimacy with your lover, so you went and spent hours alone?
Do you see the contradiction inherent in your actions?A better idea, in my opinion, would be to include her.
Perhaps by starting with a purification, wash her clean of your old projections,
And begin construction more loving layers -
@Frater Horus said
":o Why???"
I think a ritual for love would be more powerful if the beloved were "involved." But I have no proof of this and don't disregard your thoughtful points about resistance. Either way, I don't think disclosure is an obligation to avoid some kind of power-over oppressiveness.@Uni_Verse said
"I am going to take a page from Los play book:"
Please don't.@Uni_Verse said
"You desired greater intimacy with your lover, so you went and spent hours alone?"
Not unreasonable at all. Intimacy requires the self just as much as the other, and in fact many relationships fail for a lack of holding onto oneself and fusion between the couple. When the erotic space between self and other collapses, there is no room for a spark. That said, doing something together might be optimal, if she were open to it. And if she were not, explanation and expression of one's intent in advance would, I think, bring some transparency and vulnerability, two keys to intimacy.But solitary ritual also strikes me as completely appropriate. One might similarly spend a worthwhile hour with a journal or in meditation, painting a picture or picking a bouquet of flowers, writing a poem or daydreaming. Seems entirely consistent to spend some time alone, invoking the Goddess, purifying and equilibrating the self as a precursor to energizing a connection.
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I realized my second comment would get some feathers ruffled, but when I read his post a second time, it got my feathers ruffled.
If it was me, and I wanted better intimacy with anyone ( sexual or not) this Rite would not work. No way, because my capability of intimacy comes from within myself, by my response cycles and beliefs. The most effective Rites for improving intimacy would have everything to do with changing Me, and absolutely nothing to do with anything external, especial one specific human being. As I stated first, Rites are contracts and accords, an attempt to bring Oneself to a higher (or lower I suppose) state of being ( which would mundanely be referred to as a behavior modification technique). No one has the right to involve anyone else in any magical working unless that person has given informed consent. He specifically stated that he used threads from her garment. ( which in actual fact would magically sway the weaver of that thread mores then someone who briefly wore it, IMO, but thatsneither here nor there).
I know that if I found out that someone had involved me in such a rite, in this way...honest intentions or not, I would kick his controlling butt to the curb.....after I made him lick my boots clean from his bullshite.
I find it hard to believe that some would think that the Archtype of Love and Beauty and Harmony would be tricked by such a rite. In reality, that rite IMO will only strengthen that mans ego, and not his true self at all.
I was taught that when ever a practitioner performs a rite you look within for the results. Your results are directly about you the practitioner, how you felt, what it made you feel like and think about, changes in personal behaviors and thought patterns. His results where all about Her, and how his Rite forced changes upon her.
I see that as oppressive, domination, control....nit wanting to personally change but forcing change upon others....
That is not the Law, that is not Love.
I do genuinely thank the Op for sharing his Rite, and I do also genuinely believe that he intended on bringing his relationship to a new level. to which I say, read my first response, as that is a direct way to bring about change....willfully...which is magick.
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We all read through the prism of our own demonology. Veronica, you are writing words into what you have read that are not what was written.
Granted, you could be correct in filling those "blanks" between the lines in, or your could be wrong. But either case, it is you.
He wrote that he performed a rite to "improve intimacy" in his relationship. Exact words are: "I decided to make a venus talisman for improving intimacy between me and my partner." I read that as an internal result, you read it as if he was seeking external results. If I were to perform such a rite, I know the type of results I'm getting are pretty much what his looked like, an opportunity to improve intimacy.
Now... there may be another problem, I read intimacy as just that, intimacy - closeness, a kind of uniting in the heart area - you may be correct though and all he meant was sex. That's how women often use that "word." When I read intimacy, I think intimacy. If he has the kind of vocabulary and consideration for language that when he writes the word "intimacy" he means "sex," no wonder his partner and him aren't meeting in the heart.
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I never implied once that all he wanted was sex, nor that my ideas about intimacy are about sex alone. Yet in his own words, in his rite he wrote "-Then I performed middle pillar and visualize a hot tantric sex and charged it with the release of energy from my Muladhara on the object.". He clearly does not say he visualized intimate conversations, trust, tenderness compassion, closeness or any other aspect of intimacy, Only "a hot tantric sex"
I also clearly state things that I understand are IMO, and ime, and that ymmv.
This person honestly asked for comments, I personally thought he hadn't received any valuable comments, ( except Mr. Eshelmans).
I also feel Takamba that you continuously point out insignificant points in all my posts, devaluing my significant remarks, Which feels like an attempt to discredit me and my insights completely.
I wrote words in response to what was written.
you didn't offer this man any practical ideas, nor were you able to detect the falsity and implications of that rite. That's not my fault. What was written was a rite involving another human being, without her informed consent. To me that's pretty much the bottom line of it. To me, in my world that's BAD magick, yet again....ymmv. -
@Veronica said
"I never implied once that all he wanted was sex, nor that my ideas about intimacy are about sex alone. Yet in his own words, in his rite he wrote "-Then I performed middle pillar and visualize a hot tantric sex and charged it with the release of energy from my Muladhara on the object.". He clearly does not say he visualized intimate conversations, trust, tenderness compassion, closeness or any other aspect of intimacy, Only "a hot tantric sex"
I also clearly state things that I understand are IMO, and ime, and that ymmv.
This person honestly asked for comments, I personally thought he hadn't received any valuable comments, ( except Mr. Eshelmans).
I also feel Takamba that you continuously point out insignificant points in all my posts, devaluing my significant remarks, Which feels like an attempt to discredit me and my insights completely.
I wrote words in response to what was written.
you didn't offer this man any practical ideas, nor were you able to detect the falsity and implications of that rite. That's not my fault. What was written was a rite involving another human being, without her informed consent. To me that's pretty much the bottom line of it. To me, in my world that's BAD magick, yet again....ymmv."He seems to be working with the "sex magick" style made popular in Chaos Magick books - his object wasn't clearly stated to us (The Oath), his method of raising his energy was what i thought that "hot tantric sex" was about. Of course, I could be mistaken - he hasn't come back to respond.
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Thanks for all your helpful comments. They are so appreciable. lets more clarify the subject.
We started our relationship about 2 years ago and she moved in 2 month after we first met. She left Canada after 20 years of living there for a hope of make a new life here in Iran, in her mother land; and hopefully we live (& I've grown up) in a part of capital with a different view that Veronica traced, away from fanaticism and islamic cultural issues, so in this case cultural taboos which can make any bed cold doesn't take place here.
citylife and busy lifestyle is worldwide phenomena and there's a perisan saying that says "In the city of crazies, craziness is not a crime.". We're both have business lifestyle but not workaholic. I cannot digest the idea of being too tired of work for a long period of time as a good the reason for being cold or neutral in sexual activities, Particularly in 30s.
My mate was participant in the will of "Improving our sexlife" and when I said INTIMACY my point was being the most open and receptive in bed. [Veronica was right.]The lost one which we both suffer from. so the rite was not against her will , and also we had a discussion about venus exaltations and its issues and i told her i'll go for a rite that time and pray for our relationship. So she knew, but not in details. 'cuz she didn't believe in such works and when talked about tantra before she laughed and says "These bullshit breathing technics and meditations can never change anything ."
I agree with the term of better results came if the rite was performed together.
I confess , I always had a dream of my partner involved in my path working but I didn't even suggest her cuz I didn't see her interested yet. Yes, I always has this fantasy and the major one was The Gnostic Mass.She came from 2 divorces: Her ex-husband and their parents. The seed of "TRUST NO MEN" got thick tree and IMO a little more conversation and being supportive together can't make mircales. ('cuz already we are and those work best in everyday except in bed). Believe it or not we've tried most nonmagickal solutions.
Veronica asked 5 questions and all answers was positive. So what a man can do more?
Where does the Will take place? That time I believed that I cannot continue under the slogan of "Accept ur partner as she/he is."
and nothing manifested in assiah without any good briatic idea and a powerful yetziraic plan. so I performed the rite.I took Jim's point in indifferent to the outcome. But the happenings right after the ceremony was undeniable. I didn't even suggest her to came on my path before. and the pressure on her psyche that made her cry was really came out nowhere in first sight. And when yesterday (just days after the rite) she said I wanna know more about A.C. this meant a lot for me.
I knew that may be she wanna try this way just to get more connected to me, not for thirst of spiritual path working.
But… Can't we still say it's magick? -
Flowers take time to open and fully blossom.What more can a man do?
Have patience, and know in your heart
(Anahata where Venus resides in us)
If you tend to her needs,
(the safety, nurturing, trusting)
She will be able to tend to yours.
(Porn star lovemaking, plus sandwiches;)Every single act of intimacy is valuable and sacred.
Wether she has you handcuffed with a riders crop
Or is gazing into your eyes over a cup of coffee.
Each act is hot tantric sex, intimate and powerfulSex makes us extremely vulnerable.
It is this feeling of vunerability that gets in our way
Especially since we are naked when we have sex
So, we tend to try to cover that vunerablness up
With emotional barriers, and physical responses.Just because a woman got into hot sex once,
And let herself be vulnerable, naked and exposed
Does not mean she can or will again.
Unless her partner understands her needs (verbal and non verbal communication)
Responds to her needs,
And knows" I am above you and in you. My ecstasy is in yours. My joy is to see your joy"
Heres another insider tip,
when I look at human
any human
I Can see Divinity incarnate.
Thou art God, Thou art Goddess.
I love my life and all the crazy wonderful beautiful aspects of it.
When I kiss, I am kissing my God/dess
When I stroke and caress....it is the Divine I am touching
My Union, my relationships, my intimacies reside and come from my heart
And my understanding that I Veronica am nothing,
But a messenger.
Love is the Law
That's the message.Of course those are my opinions and experience and Ymmv,
and Los How about this for a fun experiment to prove disprove Spirit......
You find a highly trained Priestess/priest (depending on your mood or orientation)
One time, that priestess (invoked)will focus and intend or behave as if you were God incarnate.(evoked)...In bed
Another time that human (non invoked) will have no focus or intention.( non evoked).....other then to bring you to orgasm.So it would be more simply sex with the participants invoked/evoked,
And sex with out.Do you think that the results (which I will quantify as orgasms and semen) will have any measurable differences?Ie Will the biochemisty of the product be different? will that difference (if detectable) have any life enhancing benefits? Can those benefits be achieved in anyother manner?
Cause that's the type of magick I see as real and important.
Sorry that last bit might be off topic, but I think it is valuable to think about, and no before you ask. I am not gonna play guinea pig.
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@Veronica said
" and Los How about this for a fun experiment to prove disprove Spirit......"
Well, that wouldn't prove or disprove the existence of spirits. It would just demonstrate how fun it is for two (or more?) given people to roleplay as gods or spirits in the sack.
The answer: surprisingly fun.
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Surprisingly
If I Had the ability I would blow a big fat raspberry at you.
I didn't say it would prove disprove Spirits
I said Spirit,
Which is a whole different can of worms IMO.But anyway, if roleplaying like that is surprisingly fun for you.......more power to ya, but I'll still blow that raspberry, and think of A Little Play.
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What's the difference between "Spirit" and "surprisingly fun?"
"The Spirit of the day was joyous and proud!"
Raspberry back atcha
youtu.be/jsPyI8SG_eA -
@Takamba said
"What's the difference between "Spirit" and "surprisingly fun?"
"The Spirit of the day was joyous and proud!"
Raspberry back atcha
youtu.be/jsPyI8SG_eAI wasn't blowing a raspberry at you......
I don't think you have any reason to be exasperated with me.I was expressing my exasperation to Los because he is adept at ignoring my playful attempts to engage him.
Intj here, so thanks but no thanks on the self help critical thinking videos....that's the last thing I need right now. I appreciate your valiant attempts to help me overcome myself.
