I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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I wonder if you were responding to the idea of gratitude to someone or something, vs. gratitude for someone or something.
I started to draw that distinction in my own post, then went back and deleted it. It seemed to me to be too... simple, without being grounded in more details, and I thought the generalization was too general to serve well. But it did cross my mind.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I wonder if you were responding to the idea of gratitude to someone or something, vs. gratitude for someone or something.
I started to draw that distinction in my own post, then went back and deleted it. It seemed to me to be too... simple, without being grounded in more details, and I thought the generalization was too general to serve well. But it did cross my mind."
That sounds about right: I guess I take issue with the idea of Gratitude "to" something/somebody; which would probably be because I'm essentially an atheist. (Or maybe naturalistic pantheist might be a better way to put ut, which makes being grateful to somebody rather untenable) Still; that's no reason to berate somebody for not seeing things from my point of view. I'm getting that a lot recently, must be a phase I'm going through.
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What about gratitude to individuals?
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"What about gratitude to individuals?"
That's not the same as gratitude to imaginary friends though is it? I'm grateful to my mother and I'm at least half certain that she exists?
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@Jim Eshelman said
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@Archaeus said
"I get a strong sense of closet Christianity in the OP's posts which come out in all sorts of ways, some of which you have also noticed such as begging/gratitude."I wanted, in passing, to remark on this.
Expanded gratitude is distinctly Christian? Sir, I would disagree most fiercely with this. One could argue, instead, that gratitude as a practice is one of the most effective fundamental practices one can undertake.
I agree with Cicero that, “Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all others,” and with Elie Wiesel who wrote, “When a person doesn’t have gratitude, something is missing in his or her humanity.”
It is (among other things) my fundamental attitude toward Nuit."
Jim! Oh Jim! That is such an beautiful way to put it; you make me once again want to lose myself in those prayers of gratitude. But Hadit in my heart have had enough and refuses to go along with this wish of mine... I keep clapsing my hands, over and over again, trying to do the work of the past... but there is only silence coming from the stillness of my lips.
@Archaeus said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I wonder if you were responding to the idea of gratitude to someone or something, vs. gratitude for someone or something."That sounds about right: I guess I take issue with the idea of Gratitude "to" something/somebody"
I would say that what you talk of here, are both ways the same thing. Doing it both ways, is directing force towards something... Also: I haven't been thankful towards anything - not even when I sang the words: "Oh Lord hear my prayer! Thank you so much!". That song only shows a human heart feverishly occupied with expressing it's current emotional status.
The radio doesn't play for you - it simply plays.
I have all this time been invoking the feeling of gratitude in my heart - like how a man switches on the light in a dark room. Sometimes using phrases like: "Oh Lord hear my prayer! Thank you so much" Only to catch the beauty and to intensify the fever of mine prayers.
I am in love when I do it... Have no doubt about it... My heart is on fire!
I prayed gratitude... I have been invoking the feeling of gratitude... I didn't pray towards anything - even though I sometimes did pretend that I prayed towards something, just to keep the illusion of reality being real... But in reality there is no God but man, and you are all a part of my Khabs...
Patrick Ossoski: I am the universe! You hear me!? I am the universe!
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@ Hawkheaded Lord et al:
I had a bit of a realization this morning: Recently I have seen rather a lot of Order politics, claims and counter-claims of this and that grade and all the rest, and have myself gotten involved in dragging the work of the Order into the realm of common things like a bauble to be owned.I also realize that many of my comments to the OP on this thread stem from the same source of spiritual pride manifesting as criticism of the claims of others. I realize that this kind of thing simply makes the work of the AA into just another item that I am trying to grasp and hold onto in a universe where I can hold nothing but have only my determination to walk the path.
To that end I apologize to the OP and to everyone else for my ego-based comments (There must be hundreds
) And will henceforth get on with my own work and only post when I have something worthwhile to say.93 93/93
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@Archaeus said
"@ Hawkheaded Lord et al:
I had a bit of a realization this morning: Recently I have seen rather a lot of Order politics, claims and counter-claims of this and that grade and all the rest, and have myself gotten involved in dragging the work of the Order into the realm of common things like a bauble to be owned.I also realize that many of my comments to the OP on this thread stem from the same source of spiritual pride manifesting as criticism of the claims of others. I realize that this kind of thing simply makes the work of the AA into just another item that I am trying to grasp and hold onto in a universe where I can hold nothing but have only my determination to walk the path.
To that end I apologize to the OP and to everyone else for my ego-based comments (There must be hundreds
) And will henceforth get on with my own work and only post when I have something worthwhile to say.93 93/93"
Archaeus,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I respect you for this last post and I think what you say goes for the rest of us too. Thanks for saving me from my own shame and for bringing me back to earth. I apologize for having lured you down this filthy ego-pathic path. I can't help myself for doing it though and probably won't stop doing it.
That harashness towards yourself (Which I too had once, and still is letting go of. I have the same Saturn/virgo conjuction as you do!) is going to be what you will be up against in the abyss. This will be the time when that "paddle" that has brought you so far; will stop working... And you will then suffer immensly for not understanding "how" to submit to the glory of the most high... That good honest heart of yours will take you through this and life as a whole, I'm sure.
Take care...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Archaeus said
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Yes I'm familiar with them, but that wasn't what the OP was doing. I already explained that it seemed as though he was praying to some supreme being to 'save him' or to be grateful to. It doesn't matter though, like I said; maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, it wouldn't be the first time
"The idea I was trying to get across is that of agency,
Where in the situation I brought forth, the Magician becomes the conduit of the Divine
Causing the Prayer to rise and the response of Adonai to descend.With the Magician requiring a belief in neither...
Perhaps an example that might better resonate with you :
Even though you personally lean towards Atheism, as a member of the Order were you to be placed in charge of a person more Devotee in character you would work as an agent of their Divine principle regardless of your personal beliefs.
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@Uni_Verse said
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@Archaeus said
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Yes I'm familiar with them, but that wasn't what the OP was doing. I already explained that it seemed as though he was praying to some supreme being to 'save him' or to be grateful to. It doesn't matter though, like I said; maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, it wouldn't be the first time"The idea I was trying to get across is that of agency,
Where in the situation I brought forth, the Magician becomes the conduit of the Divine
Causing the Prayer to rise and the response of Adonai to descend.With the Magician requiring a belief in neither...
Perhaps an example that might better resonate with you :
Even though you personally lean towards Atheism, as a member of the Order were you to be placed in charge of a person more Devotee in character you would work as an agent of their Divine principle regardless of your personal beliefs."that last comment is actually a brilliant point and one that I hadn't considered. But were they a probationer then I would just leave them to it rather than bludgeon them with my opinion.
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@Archaeus said
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To that end I apologize to the OP and to everyone else for my ego-based comments (There must be hundreds ) And will henceforth get on with my own work and only post when I have something worthwhile to say.
"On the other hand... it is a part of the work to let the "bad" stuff out and to analyse them after. It helps both you and others who will read
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@Frater Horus said
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@Archaeus said
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To that end I apologize to the OP and to everyone else for my ego-based comments (There must be hundreds ) And will henceforth get on with my own work and only post when I have something worthwhile to say.
"On the other hand... it is a part of the work to let the "bad" stuff out and to analyse them after. It helps both you and others who will read
"This is true; it's easy to be a paper Buddha living in a hermitage, quite another to live the life of an initiate in the really real world. Besides, where would the Ordeals come from if everything ran on greased wheels?
And then again; who's to say that things don't run on greased wheels?
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Almost four weeks in constant prayer "mutated" into this pure awareness (gnosis/satori?). My understanding is that the joining of opposites; for instance "sorrow with gratitude" created this third pehomena - as when the father and mother come together and creates a child:
"That which is being aware."
I seem to have achieved the same phenomena that happens to the zenbuddhist monk working on the Koan... When the mind suddenly stops and he is "aware". This is why I don't have to keep on praying because now; I instead constantly work through all the subtle layers of myself (thoughts, emotions, physical phenomena etc.) with this "vehicle" of pure awareness.
This vehicle of awareness is needed because the mind can't work upon itself without creating "tension" (a mind trying to let go of itself, is a mind delivering falseness, unconsciously supressing etc.). With this "awareness" (or superconscioussness) I can go through every layer within myself and to truly "let go" of all phenomena...
@Faus said
"Hawkheaded
Sometimes prayer simply stop, as if the mind turns itself inwards and search for silence. Action in general becomes meaningless, almost a disturbance.
Sometimes the key is to fight, but other is just a matter of relax the inner tension and let it flow through you. This intellectual and emotional fever that wants to label everything, control and explain usually is the very source of inner tension."
And that is what has happened... and boy is there a lot of tension... and boy, do I have alot of thoughts and emotions "pretending" to be "me"!? It is also worth mentioning that the initiation now has entered into a whole new phase; let me continue:
There is no need to work with the Qliphoth, in the abyss they start working on you... That's my current understanding. I get visions of crawling maggots in my eyeballs, hate, rage and, screams inside of me, slicing of vrists/throat and deamons constantly attacking me, throwing me around the room (Astrally). Sometimes even taking possesion of my body when I several times have started cursing "fucking cunt", "you will die", but not to mention, and this happens a lot: I often lose myself in this evil laugher (This happens only when I am fully relaxed - thank god not in public!).
I also experience that the "shadows" is getting more and more powerful, almost making me worried that they will manange to "hit" me physically... It also feels like the final meeting with Chorozon will be an experience of full possession of my body with the feeling of madness that is only found in the deepest of hell (I'm not sure what to expect in the end, but the feeling of "falling downwards" through this darkness must sooner or later reach an "climax".). That "could" (I let go of "worries" and everything else) get me thinking, what if I hurt someone? Do I need to leave the apartment?
There is no desert around here...
The deamons often come back attacking me in a simliar pattern, acting much in a way like this movie that keep reapeting itself - and this particular phenomena and their obsessive intrest with me - has revealed them to be a part of my own psyche (I came to understand this after awhile, and I also came to understand that they are even more "fixed" than "matter" itself! They truly are the reversed side of the tree of life. I actually feel compassionate with them!)... I am not scared, I am letting go of all fear, and even of the fear of them hurting my own body - that they will somehow twist my neck or something in a very bad way - in those moments when they for "a few seconds" actually manages to control its muscles...
In the end....All this I greet with the slilent smile of my lips just staying "aware" (watching). There actually is a kind of bliss to where I am at... yeah there is a kind of bliss to where I am at...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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93,
I read the first two pages of the thread, and pretty much skimmed the rest. Noticed that everyone here seems really helpful, and Jim is giving excellent advice.
I only want to add two things, which may or may not be of help. I read the Terms of Agreement, but I am unsure of the protocol for posting links or quotes on this site. So if this post happens to be in violation, please feel free to remove it. No harm is intended.
Jim said:
@Jim Eshelman said
"In the authentic crossing of the Abyss, one doesn't battle these things into submission. Rather, one changes one's relationship to them. If anything is battled, it is one's reactivity; but, even then, it is more a matter of the reactivity not keying in because one's relation ship to the phenomena (and to one's one reactivity) is different.
One doesn't move further from experience, but more deeply into it.
One doesn't even get rid of negative feelings. They're just feelings, like the weather. Again, it's a matter of changing one's relationship to them. I think I would say that one's feelings. Thoughts, and circumstances are no longer the context within which one exists but, rather, that one is the context within which they exist.
"The Venerable Zen Master Thicht Nhat Hanh talks about, "Holding anger like a mother holding a baby". One could replace "anger" with any emotion, such as despair, doubt, grief, etc.
Also, Liber 418, The Cry of the 12th Aethyr, offers this:
"(This wine is such that its virtue radiateth through the cup, and I reel under the intoxication of it. And every thought is destroyed by it. It abideth alone, and its name is Compassion. I understand by "Compassion," the sacrament of suffering, partaken by the true worshippers of the Highest. And it is an ecstasy in which there is no trace of pain. Its passivity (=passion) is like the giving-up of the self to the beloved.)
The voice continues: This is the Mystery of Babylon, the Mother of abominations, and this is the mystery of her adulteries, for she hath yielded up herself to everything that liveth, and hath become a partaker in its mystery. And because she hath made herself the servant of each, therefore is she become the mistress of all. Not as yet canst thou comprehend her glory. "
93 93/93
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Post some early delusion & confusion, I now realize that I have a long road to walk and many obstacles to overcome before I reach the city of the pyramids and the final annihilation of the ego. My nature is very deformed from a lifetime of carrying the heaviness of a severely traumatized and restrictive personality, and will therefore not be overcome and erased just like that.
The mind is also very tricky and has had me fooled more than twice, but my awareness of it is making me more knowledgeable about all it’s tricks, and then at the same time, how to keep myself from interfering with it’s business… I just keep “watching” myself all day long, trying to work without “lust for result”. I even had to fall back to the prayer of gratitude for a while, since I have not in anyway fully formed the proper relation to all phenomena. Sometimes, I am still overpowered by the intensity of some of the darker shadows of despair, hopelessness and suicide.
There is so much suffering… The famous Gurdjieff is supposed to have said that:
“Ordinary men never experience true suffering and sorrow, for they live mechanical and routine lives, and their troubles are routine, automatic and inescapable. But a man who has willfully undertaken the extraordinary and unnecessary burden of the work, he alone knows the taste of real sorrow and sickness of heart, for he will suffer pain and pressures that life does not ordinarily require.”
I know by experience of what he meant by those words... I also know it's the only cure for overcoming all that pride and arrogance of mine… One must stay strong; let those tears keep coming.
The prayer of gratitude keeps the spirit up in my darkest moments (I'm very grateful for it; it's a life saver and the holy graal.), and from time to time when strong enough, I also get to “watch” the emotions without having to resort to the prayer. I feel more and more just to shut up and stay silent. I can’t see any reason to further comment upon this matter.
What will be will be...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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PS - There is no "final annihilation of the ego." There is just annihilation of the ego. And reconstitutes itself rather quickly.
The difference is that what your (for lack of a more convenient phrase) experience as yourself no longer identifies with it.
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Do What Thou Wilt,
I know well (my interpretation) of the emotional states you've described, THc, and for what it's worth (to you) I have recently been shared this audio book. The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruíz. It's not explicitly Thelemic, but to my ears has quite a resonance.
In my own quests I've found it helpful when one's Self reminds themselves that the Abyss is of Hallucinations, has "Law and Reason; but in Truth there is no bond between the Toys of the Gods." The Ego Driven quest for explanation is a short cut to Understanding, and it does not cross the Abyss with one's Self, but is stripped away. Short Circuits can cause an overload of current that contemporaneously "damages" the established circuitry. This sorrow (to me) sounds of the nature of that shedding of the skin, the clinging to Reason and
"27. There is great danger in me; for who doth not understand these runes shall make a great miss. He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason.
- Now a curse upon Because and his kin!
- May Because be accursed for ever!
- If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought.
- If Power asks why, then is Power weakness.
- Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.
- Enough of Because! Be he damned for a dog!
- But ye, o my people, rise up & awake!"
and also
"45. There is death for the dogs.
- Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart?
- Where I am these are not.
- Pity not the fallen! I never knew them. I am not for them. I console not: I hate the consoled & the consoler."
and
"66. Write, & find ecstasy in writing! Work, & be our bed in working! Thrill with the joy of life & death! Ah! thy death shall be lovely: whososeeth it shall be glad. Thy death shall be the seal of the promise of our age long love. Come! lift up thine heart & rejoice! We are one; we are none."
I would suggest you converse with your HGA as to what this state you are passing through is all about, and S/HE can relay better information.
Your Will is yours, and it is not feasible that another Star could discern it's nuances, even enough to pinpoint relevant anecdotes to answer your Initial quest-ion. IM(ns)HO your discussion speaks to many symptoms not just of Clinical Depression, but also to a state of (what seems to me to be) Grandiosity and other traits that confirm to the Clinical term Bipolar. The Oscillation between Despair and Ego Explosions is a red flag, to me.
My own painful stories are, like most stories, ones of Ego (identity, not Self) impinging it's Reason on Will, surrounded by the hallucinations of Time (past/future focus, leaving the Now immobilized with despair); the release from that state of Perpetual Despair has taught me this: Faith = +(Certainty); Hope = +(Uncertainty); Fear = -(Uncertainty); Despair = -(Certainty). With that Hope = Faith + Fear; Fear = Despair + Hope.
Let go and let God (as the southern baptists say). Acceptance is what it sounds like you're missing, and the lack of acceptance (the clinging to Pain, by the hands of Remorse and Regret) sounds (to me) to be a major component of what you're describing. I would recommend, for your own health, though you're explicitly not asking for it, that you look into some of the Cognitive Therapy that's been discussed. Psychology is a grandchild of Magick, and it's approach can be helpful. I particularly find use in Mindfulness Based therapies, as they are heavily influenced from Buddhism, and (in my experience) compatible with Magickal thought patterns.
"42. Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.
- Do that, and no other shall say nay.
- For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect."
I speak but from my own Ego's mouth, and would Do well to remember:
"21. We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world. Think not, o king, upon that lie: That Thou Must Die: verily thou shalt not die, but live. Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever. Nuit! Hadit! Ra-Hoor-Khuit! The Sun, Strength & Sight, Light; these are for the servants of the Star & the Snake."
In summary, I found this topic to be quite thoroughly discussed and elucidating, and I appreciate the efforts of all, and the earnest honesty of your sharing, THc. Many Gratitudes to you, AL.
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all,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I'm so sick and tired of this staying aware! I have tried this method for the past 9 months.
I AM SICK AND TIRED OF IT!
Now I will go unconscious! I will try to stay a sleep! I will be mechanical! No more of this trying to be alert! No more of this watching my emotions and thoughts! I am going to try real hard trying to think a thousand thoughts and feel emotional all day long!
I will be active instead of trying to be passive!
I will be walking backwards instead of forwards
I will be trying instead of not trying!
I will live instead of trying to die!
I will eat instead of starving!
I will boast and brag, instead of being modest and simple!
I will be complex instead of being simple!
I will be old and dead instead of childish!
I will be arrogant instead of humble!
I will be impatient; to hell with patience!
I will be trying to smoke as much as I can instead of not smoking!I am sick and tired of this mind and it's quest for virtue! I don't care for enlightenment! I embrace ignorance! I am sick and tired of of doing it correctly! Now I will do everything backwards! You hear me! Backwards! I will do everything the wrong way!
To all these wrongdoings my mind seem to respond with a big "ERROR"! But it gave me a good laugh.
Love is the law, love under will!
Peace
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There is no "Try."
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"Thou wast long seeking Me; thou didst run forward so fast that I was unable to come up with thee.
Oh thou darling fool! what bitterness thou didst crown thy days withal."
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@Jim Eshelman said
"There is no "Try.""
To my mind there is a trying "not be trying" - it understands that it shouldn't be trying, but the mind doesn't know anything else than trying, becoming, moving, creating tension. So I will take my vengeance upon it! I will feed the mind with the idea of trying, all day long I will tell my mind to try harder, become tense, move, be active, think!
The mind knows that it has to relax and just be! But it's very nature is to be on the move and create tension. It can only pretend and hide itself... and it does...
That's why I refuse to have the mind believing in the idea of "no try"! The mind has no right to believe in that kind of stuff! The mind doesn't know that kind of stuff... So I will feed the mind with what it deserves. I will shove every falsity there is; everything that is the opposite of becoming enlightened I will show down it's throat!
The mind should know it's damn place! It should know that it isn't invited to the partey!
Love is the law, love under will
Peace