Where Planetary ritual manifests in the nativity?

Almuten93

I have some questions about planetary magic and the nativity. Now I have had some great experiences doing planetary magic, and doing it on a daily basis does lead to striking synchronicities in the external world. As far as my astrological skill, it is improving but not great. So with that as a baseline my questions are:

Can magick overcome our natal promise?
Can magick overcome of natal, progressions, and transits?
Is working with debilitated planets a bad idea?
Can we remedy the fixed stars?
Where in the chart does planetary magick manifest?
Can magick overcome our natal chart?

Two very consistent statements in astrology are we cannot predict anything that isn't in the nativity and we cannot elect for anything that isn't in the nativity. For example, the natal promise for money is bad, you have a debilitated Saturn in the 2nd house and the Lord of the 2nd is debilitated. Even with a favorable Jupiter transit you would not predict great financial fortune, you would predict a better than average financial state given a poor baseline.

Could you through magick get past that limitation? Say, manifest something equivalent to a 2nd house with Jupiter and Moon in Cancer conjunct Regulus with a terrible 2nd house? Or say the same thing in regards to the 7th house.

Can magic overcome of natal, progressions, and transits?

So imagine I am the guy with the Saturn afflicted 2nd house, Mars is squaring Saturn by progression, Saturn is transiting through the second house, every single factor of astrology is lined up against me. Could this ever be mitigated anyway? Would invoking Jupiter improve the outcome? Would invoking Saturn in this case make the financial situation worse?

Is working with debilitated planets a bad idea?

Looking at Morin and Sahl they say if a planet is debilitated never use it in any election, no matter how dignified the planet is in the election. Does that idea carry over to planetary magic?

If I had say Mars in the 12th in exact opposition to Pluto in the 12th would doing a Mars working be a good thing or would it be likely to lead to aggressive action by secret enemies or rash self-undoing? Or would it improve Mars qualitatively and lead to better Mars outcomes?

Can we remedy the fixed stars?

Well this isn't really a practical question; idle curiosity I guess. Fixed stars are said to operate a "higher" level of fate, to delimit the very boundaries of our existence. My intuition about the planets in the nativity is that they can qualitatively be improved; we can get friendlier outcomes but we can't escape their influence. I have no idea about the fixed stars. (I just noticed that Marcello Motta has Caput Algol exactly on his MC; what perfect symbolism.)

Where in the chart does planetary magick manifest?

This is really the most important question because it is the most practical. If I had a better theory of how planetary magic manifested in the nativity or transits or progressions, I could be more effective.

So here's some theories to see where I'm going with this:

A) Planetary invocation as a manufactured transit? The astrological saying is progressions are like loading the gun and transits are the trigger. Great Jupiter progression but no Jupiter transit, no great Jupiter things will happen. So the logical outcome of this would be to do magic when you have favorable progressions to bring them into being, avoid working with a planet when there is a nasty progressions that you don't want to come into being.

B) Planetary magic works where the planet is in the nativity? This seems to work. For example, I've head great success with Jupiter ritual resulting in extra money from my job. My Jupiter is in the 11th house, my Job's money, 2nd from the 10th. Maybe if Jupiter were in the 5th, Jupiter rituals would bring money from my parents. In the 4th money from my sisters and brothers. On the other hand the 11th house is probably the easiest route for money to manifest for 90% of people so perhaps that is coincidence

C) Planetary magick can be considered a conjunctions of the planet with your natal monon? I don't see much practical evidence for this but in theory these workings take place in Yetzirah so could be consider Moon conjunct whatever planet you are working with. If your moon is on the MC, yea, you can manifest planetary powers into the world easily.. If your moon is the 12th, it will be very difficult to manifest the planetary powers in the world. (Then perhaps if you're an adept and working on the Briahatic level, you could consider Planetary magick as conjunctions with your Sun.)

D) Planetary magic manifests where the event ascendant is when located in the nativity. The ascendant is supposed to be the point of incarnation, where the immaterial comes into the material. Some of the electional astrology emphasizes putting the ascendant of the event chart into the 1st or 10th.

Now I don't know if any of the above theories are valid -- they're just kind of idea of toyed with. But if anyone of them were true we would do our planetary rituals in a radically different fashion than most people do them now.

Thanks!

Jim Eshelman

@Almuten93 said

"1) Can magick overcome our natal promise?"

We may have a semantics issue here. I don't know what you mean by "our natal promise." If you mean, can magick turn us into something that we inherently are not, or divert us from our actual natures (same thing), then the answer is no.

"2) Can magick overcome of natal, progressions, and transits?"

See above. I wonder what you mean by "overcome." I suspect you mean, can magick keep a specific manifestation from occurring. If that's the question, then the answer is: No astrological factor points to a specific factor but, rather, to a range of possible manifestations that share a common theme of inner experience. You can redirect the momentum toward a particular manifestation by choices, life changes, and, yes, magick.

"3) Is working with debilitated planets a bad idea?"

No. (Though I don't know what you mean by "work with" in this case.)

"4) Can we remedy the fixed stars?"

What are you trying to remedy? Is one of them sick? See abobve.

"5) Where in the chart does planetary magick manifest?"

It doesn't manifest in the chart. (Or I don't understand how you are using these words.)

"Two very consistent statements in astrology are we cannot predict anything that isn't in the nativity and we cannot elect for anything that isn't in the nativity."

Those are statements from a very few schools of astrology, and especially in a narrow period of time (primarily late 19th C. through mid 20th C.). I disagree with these premises entirely; or, rather, I agree with them because we have all the planets within us, and therefore have access to all possibilities. [Your various views seem very C.C. Zain influenced, for example.)

The exception is that we have little or no power (and - deep down - no wish) for circumstances that are inherently at odds with our own nature. Power to do what you would never choose to do is irrelevant.

"For example, the natal promise for money is bad, you have a debilitated Saturn in the 2nd house and the Lord of the 2nd is debilitated. Even with a favorable Jupiter transit you would not predict great financial fortune, you would predict a better than average financial state given a poor baseline."

Houses have little or no effect in astrology. Though there have been numerous significant studies over the last 60 years validating other primary elements of astrology, there has never been a single statistical validation of houses as relevant astrological factors. You can relax.

"So imagine I am the guy with the Saturn afflicted 2nd house, Mars is squaring Saturn by progression, Saturn is transiting through the second house, every single factor of astrology is lined up against me. Could this ever be mitigated anyway? Would invoking Jupiter improve the outcome? Would invoking Saturn in this case make the financial situation worse?"

Ignoring every reference to houses in the above, what we're left with is progressed Mars squares your (natal or progressed) Saturn. The one thing I can tell you is that this is going to be a period (lasting at least three years -maybe longer, depending on the speed of progressed Mars) when you are going to be embedded in struggle. It most likely will be a time of various hardships, and certainly a time when you are bashing the head of your will against every restriction and barrier and wall and limit in your environment. Among other things, this can be a time of financial hardship; but that's by no means the limit of the manifestation.

And, it has within it an antidote for the hardship: Knowing that the chief characteristics are struggle, the interrelationship of will and limit, hard-edged survival-mindedness (and finding yourself preoccupied with survival issues), you have choices to make: You can pick what to struggle against and, more importantly, what to struggle for. You can choose to apply yourself with effort, concentration, drive, survival-propelled practicality etc. and - by earning every last damned cent - make it a time of financial prosperity.

Think in terms of elements of character, differentiated by your powers of choice.

"Looking at Morin and Sahl they say if a planet is debilitated never use it in any election, no matter how dignified the planet is in the election. Does that idea carry over to planetary magic?"

It doesn't even carry weight into astrology period.

One way to filter this information: Morin (for example) wasn't even using a valid zodiac (he was using the Tropical zodiac); so he had no accurate way of knowing when a planet is debilited.

In any case, all debilitiations (detriment and fall) mean is that the planet is in a sign of an opposite nature. This creates a polarity sense (e.g., Venus in a Mars sign, Mars in a Venus sign, etc.). Polarities are fun, and often quite dynamic.

"If I had say Mars in the 12th in exact opposition to Pluto in the 12th would doing a Mars working be a good thing or would it be likely to lead to aggressive action by secret enemies or rash self-undoing? Or would it improve Mars qualitatively and lead to better Mars outcomes?"

(You mean conjunction, of course - not opposition.) Delete anything house-oriented above, and you'll see that you just have a Mars-Pluto conjunction. That's only bad if really explosively powerful is bad - which, usually, is only in circumstances where you can't give full expression to it.

"Fixed stars are said to operate a "higher" level of fate, to delimit the very boundaries of our existence."

Quaint. One wonders what it means in practical life, right? (Algol, that you mention, does seem to be one of the worst ones by tradition. Remember what it is mythologically, though: It's Medusa's head, held in the hand of Perseus. Algol requires that we look in the face what we would prefer to turn away from.)

Almuten93

Thank you kindly for responding to my lengthy questions!

>>We may have a semantics issue here. I don't know what you mean by "our natal promise."

Well there are two parts which you explained your disagreement with

We cannot predict anything that isn't in the nativity and we cannot elect for anything that isn't in the nativity.
Planets keep the meaning in the nativity always. You have a debilitated Jupiter in the 12th house, even the best combinations of revolutions, transits, and progressions involving Jupiter will have a sort of malefic element. Jupiter progressed to the MC, yes you become rich and famous but then you drink excessively and wind up in rehab or you join a cult and give them all your money (silly examples). This comes from Morin but it also the view in some traditional schools.

>> Is working with debilitated planets a bad idea?
>> No (Though I don't know what you mean by "work with" in this case.)

What I was getting at was just working with the planets ritually which are debilitated natally. My personal style is just daily planetary ritual for initiatory reasons only, not directed to any material outcome.

The idea that planets keep the meaning inherent in the nativity always would then lead to the thought maybe it's not a good idea for one to ritually invoke their debilitated Mars which is conjunct Uranus in the 12th house and square to Pluto and Saturn

But there is another aspect: Would it be better to invoke a planet when it is essentially & accidentally dignified in the sky (in rulership on the MC or ASC)? (I would guess yes to this just based on Resh being an invocation of the Sun when it is on angles.) Would it be worse to invoke a planet at a time when it is debilitated in the sky?

>>5) Where in the chart does planetary magick manifest?
>>It doesn't manifest in the chart. (Or I don't understand how you are using these words.)

Well I was trying to understand whether we can tie planetary workings in any way to the natal chart or progressions, transits, etc:

Does our ease of working with a planet depend on the state of the planet in the nativity?
Is it easier to manifest a planet's energy if we have a good progression going?
Is there some understand of how the planetary energy invoked in ritual tie to the chart which could lead to more effective workings?

Or whether planetary magick operates totally independently of our nativity and progressions, transits, etc. On one side we have planetary effects courtesy of progressions, transits, and revolutions and on the other we set planetary effects in motion via our ritual. Are our planetary ritual effects not limited in anyway by the other effects?

Thanks again!

Jim Eshelman

@Almuten93 said

"The idea that planets keep the meaning inherent in the nativity always would then lead to the thought maybe it's not a good idea for one to ritually invoke their debilitated Mars which is conjunct Uranus in the 12th house and square to Pluto and Saturn "

The issue of disagreement here is that (unlike sign placements, planetary angularity, and aspects, for example) there is no statistical evidence that houses even exist in any meaningful sense at all. Since the other astrological basics have been confirmed repeatedly, this is worth noting: It is likely that houses either don't exist, or have such a minor influence in astrology as to be negligible compared to the other main factors. (This is confirmed in practice.)

"But there is another aspect: Would it be better to invoke a planet when it is essentially & accidentally dignified in the sky (in rulership on the MC or ASC)? (I would guess yes to this just based on Resh being an invocation of the Sun when it is on angles.) Would it be worse to invoke a planet at a time when it is debilitated in the sky?"

One of the best conditions in which to invoke planetary energies is when the planet is on the horizon or meridian, yes. As for dignity by sign, that might tip it a bit, provided you use the Sidereal zodiac. - I don't think a sign debilitation should discourage working with it nearly as much as, say, a strong, close aspect by a malefic planet.

"Well I was trying to understand whether we can tie planetary workings in any way to the natal chart or progressions, transits, etc:"

It eventually seem to me like you were looking for metaphors of the natal chart to use in describing the effects of planetary magick. I'd say use whatever metaphors you find useful; just don't confuse them with anything actual. You aren't changing your horoscope, changing its meaning, neutering or altering the existence of transits and progressions, or any of that.

"Does our ease of working with a planet depend on the state of the planet in the nativity?"

Mostly not. The extent to which this is true is that, if our magick is good, we'll always stir the corresponding part in ourselves; and, to the extent we are out of touch with, or alienated from, or just generally have difficulty with that part of ourselves, we're going to stir some trouble when we wake up that part of ourselves. - Then again, that's partly the whole idea: To find clear, strong expression of things that are suppressed, denied, or distorted within us.

"Is it easier to manifest a planet's energy if we have a good progression going?"

I've never noticed that it makes any particular difference. OTOH if I were doing a major working of a particular planet, and had the opportunity to align it with a significant transit (or, to a lesser extent, progression), I'd probably take the opportunity (all other things being equal).

"Is there some understand of how the planetary energy invoked in ritual tie to the chart which could lead to more effective workings?"

Like what? - Remember, "what's in your chart" is what's in you. (The horoscope is in no sense separate from you. It IS you.)

"Or whether planetary magick operates totally independently of our nativity and progressions, transits, etc."

Reference the above: This idea would suggest that planetary magick you perform operates "totally independently" of YOU, which is an absurd idea.

"On one side we have planetary effects courtesy of progressions, transits, and revolutions and on the other we set planetary effects in motion via our ritual. Are our planetary ritual effects not limited in anyway by the other effects?"

The range of their effect is within the bounds of who you innately are. Or, rather, if you try to operate outside of that, you can (more or less), but it's then an act of being untrue to yourself. (That is, you can do magick that is untrue to your own nature in the same way that you can act, in the course of your life, in a way that is untrue to your own nature. You hurt yourself in doing so, but it's certainly possible.)

Does that help?

Almuten93

That helps tremendously! Thanks for generously sharing your time and dazzling knowledge, both in this instance and in all the other posts on this board. This is an invaluable resource.