Tolerance vs intolerence
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Tolerance is especially the central formula of Babalon: Let everything in! Passionately and affirmatively embrace everything! Be larger than any phenomena, bringing everything into your circle. Don't just put up with every cock that wants you: See the universe as composed of an unending array of cocks that are there for the sole purpose of your satisfaction. Have it all!"
Good post Jim, and great thread overall.
I would say that true tolerance "The Babalon mindset" is only possible when you are an babe of the abyss or higher - when you have transcended the reason/mind and developed what could be called "superconscioussness". Before that, there is only the mind trying to handle what has "excited" the mind itself... and in some way it has to "supress" what has really happended. Or as one of my female friends told me:
"When I get angry I start cleaning until it has passed."
That is some sort of control, but it is also a sort of supression (What she is actually saying is: "I don't want to feel this way!")... There is a much better way of handling emotions sprung from real or none-real situations. I have for almost four weeks all day long used this prayer of gratitude, greeting every negative thought/emotions with humble gratitude ("Thank you so much!")- invoking the opposite feeling to what I have been feeling; hurt, angry, sad etc.
This has had the effect of breaking conditioning and neutralizing the phenomena at hand. It transform a man from being "reactive" to staying "aware"... We don't want to be "unconscious" and "reactive" in our daily decision making - we want to be what the Buddah called, being awake.
I thought I was awake... I wasn't at all... and I am still in the process of "waking up".
I believe it's important to be thankful for every Nuit-experience (We are talking God here! It's NOT simply a word of expression and something that is only a concern of the Magister Templi!) that enters consciousness, even though we are talking "real" situations such as Takamba call frotteurism. And by invoking the feeling of gratitude in our hearts, we make sure that we call upon the "Babalon mindset" of 100% acceptance - not supressing anything! Now, first you greet those upset emotions with gratitude - in the spirit of control and mastership - then perhaps you call upon those beautiful words:
*"Them that seek to entrap thee, to overthrow thee, them attack without pity or quarter; & destroy them utterly. Swift as a trodden serpent turn and strike! Be thou yet deadlier than he! Drag down their souls to awful torment: laugh at their fear: spit upon them!" *
In the end, no matter what your "principles" are in life: You want control, control is everything! You don't want to be reactive and unconscious about your own behaviour... Sorry I can't help speaking about that beautiful prayer, it is the Holy Graal, and perhaps one day it will be given to the world.
Thank you so much!
Love is the law, love under will
Peace
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Truly excellent post and discussion, agreed.
I'll throw my perspective in the pile...The "Babalon perspective" is a great approach to take, the attitude of letting it all in. Agreed on this too. I'm thinking, though, that the real question of tolerance comes after you've taken the human's information in, after you've digested its nature in your own system. Then, one can deduce if it is in accord with evolutionary or devolutionary behavior. This brings to mind the Feather of Ma'at on the scales in the Hall of the Dead. The response if one cannot tolerate the continuing of devolutionary behavior(as one shouldn't!) is best not an expression of outward violence as it evokes resistance from the target but a fluid and subtle(subliminal?) restructuring of the behavior through the intelligent use of language and patient action.
So what I mean is that the practice of letting it all in unconditionally for me does not imply a passivity but a form of meta-activity(perhaps a presumptuous term, but I can think of nothing better).
What helps me in this is information on psychological patterns found in medical, sociological and magical literature(including myths) so that I may have the tools necessary to understand what is influencing the situation on all planes and act from the the subconscious level on up, evoking the least resistance from the target(read the Tao Te Ching, m'lady!
hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib157.html). As I get better at this, when I am confronted with a person behaving from uncontrolled, unconscious impulses rather than a full awareness, instead of expressing my observations and distaste and accordingly entering a direct exchange on the matter(engaging ego/Ruach), I display counter-behavior that is an image of what they'd be better off doing so they naturally adopt it on account of absorbing my example and weighing it against their own. I practice at my work; I'm a cashier at a Whole Foods so I am confronted with varying degrees of this kind of behavior all day, plenty of opportunities to hone my method for diffusing it.Anyway, I hope that helps.
(EDIT: This song, and this band as a whole, also helps me deal with what you are talking about, Veronica --> www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsjakozhtbg. The lyrics in this one especially apply, a worthy meditation.)
Love is the Law, love under will.
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Perhaps meditation for a few days on tarot trump 7, the Chariot, might help as far as practices go.
The Hebrew letter, Cheth, means "fence," and suggests boundaries. The main focus is on this "fence" in terms of the container, vehicle, of the Will that flows through it.
But, as it relates to your question of how you may "strengthen my resolve and help me maintain my personal enthusiasm, so that when I am confronted with something I should not tolerate I can rightfully flare up like my histamines do in my allergic reactions," it may serve you to consider the charioteer as representing the Will that flows through your vehicle. Notice that the sphinxes (two in Rider-Waite style decks, four in Thoth) which move the chariot around are under the control of the charioteer. Though they could be said to represent the more instinctive (animal) forces that move the vehicle, it is the charioteer who controls them and not vice versa. Perhaps focus your meditation on submitting your more instinctive forces to that Will that flows through you, so that they both stop when they should stop and go when they should go, under the leadership of that Will.
But this is ...just my attempt to suggest something helpful. Perhaps the best method would be to meditate upon that trump and present your questions to it.
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@Bereshith said
"Perhaps meditation for a few days on tarot trump 7, the Chariot, might help as far as practices go.
The Hebrew letter, Cheth, means "fence," and suggests boundaries. The main focus is on this "fence" in terms of the container, vehicle, of the Will that flows through it.
But, as it relates to your question of how you may "strengthen my resolve and help me maintain my personal enthusiasm, so that when I am confronted with something I should not tolerate I can rightfully flare up like my histamines do in my allergic reactions," it may serve you to consider the charioteer as representing the Will that flows through your vehicle. Notice that the sphinxes (two in Rider-Waite style decks, four in Thoth) which move the chariot around are under the control of the charioteer. Though they could be said to represent the more instinctive (animal) forces that move the vehicle, it is the charioteer who controls them and not vice versa. Perhaps focus your meditation on submitting your more instinctive forces to that Will that flows through you, so that they both stop when they should stop and go when they should go, under the leadership of that Will. "
I agree that the symbol relates and would assist in fortifying ones perspective in these situations, sublimely. A quintessence of what I was trying to get across that I didn't see, thank you. -
I needed a couple of days to gather my thoughts about this subject, and to see what others had to share. I was very moved by what others have shared on this, thank you for engaging me in this conversation. I know I have the propensity to make people shut up and run away, I'm glad that you all have never expressed that out loud.
It appears to me that the men and women who resonate with the ideas and principles of Thelema are much different then the masses of people in the world. I think that one of the core differences is based on tolerance, and how they apply it to their lives. Specifically I think that most Thelemic people are in a very real way Knights, or Champions of Nuit, and regard the female principle with honor and have a sence of duty to this honor ( they also seem to have this regard for the masculine Had it, but in this day and age that is not uncommon). Thelemic people seem to be very strong at standing up to bullies, ignorance and fear.
As a woman, I think it is very much a part of my being to be tolerant. My body, my mind and my spirit can endure birth, and violence., To keep things alive, and continuing..... the female can roll with the punches, smooth the wrinkles, and awake each day with hope and joy...regardless of what has happened in the past.
Generally Women have issues with boundaries, what we said yesterday we would never do or say...was true yesterday, but today we may need to reassess that boundary. Where when most men say, for example...." I'll never wear a dress" it is pretty well sure that they will not ever even feel the need to reassess that boundary. For those of you in relationship with ladies I am sure you have first hand experience in this phenomena some would label as Fickle, or mutable, or inconsistent. Probably might even be an issue that you have brought to the table. Yet, ime, I never question a Sister who has changed her mind. I do it all the time myself, so it's just natural.
Tolerance and intolerance can be thought of as thresholds, the boundary line between here and there, very much like a door opening. I love the imagery of a door, it is such a great tool for me. The closed door is the boundary, in a way saying " stop here this door is closed, You Shall Not Pass" Yet with the key, you can open that door, and if invited you can enter. Very priest/vampiric symbolism it seems to me. Holy/profane I suppose is a nifty way to wrap the brain about it.
Yet it would seem to me that these boundaries are only illusions, tools of the mind to help a human being get through the day, to survive. Which is one of the reasons I believe that women have such apparently weak boundaries. But it is only an appearance, because in the femine nature is the gift of the very real manifestation of the cyclic, ongoing, iteration of patterns.
In Thelema and the Mysteries that I have come to understand, we are given words and techniques to challenge us, To stimulate, to make us strive for life, to activly pursue, and/ or passively receive every opportunity that unfolds before us. or maybe it's more like we strive for death and passively pursue, and actively receive......or some other combination of possibilities.
I would like to share that for me as a very girlie girl, who embraces tolerance in theory, it is often times almost impossible to embrace tolerance in practice. Or more specifically, it is very challenging for me to know on the macro level it is in my biological best interest to flow and roll with what life spins at me, and still apply that knowledge on the micro level.
I encounter many mean spirited people, ignorant and selfish who not only wish to be intolerant with my very existence, but aggressively seek to dominate, capture and kill my light and love.
In the construction workers senario, I alone would never humiliate a man in front of others by flipping him off. Who am I to know how psycho that will make him, and if he will then seek me out....it's happened and I'm no fool. If I had my homegirls about me, you can be sure that I am that type of girl to directly confront those who would think to diminsh me and my Sisters, and give him such a proper tounge lashing that he would definitely remember me the next time he thought about attempting to subjugate another.if I had my homeBoys about me, backing me up and letting him know that They do not tolerate that sort of thing as well.....Well that's like having Hells Angels as your personal bodyguards. I do have HellsAngels on my side in more ways then one, and knowing that your Brothers got your back, so to say, gives the female principle strength of spirit to accept, to flow, to flex, and blossom.
In a very real way, the acceptance I receive here on this forum from you gentlemen empowers me to keep it together, and keep going. It is the support the female and male give willingly and lovingly to each other that gifts humanity endurance,.I think that this issue of tolerance is where the concept of womens intuition arises, because from what I experience, intuition is the ability to predict behaviors, to recognize patterns, to be farsighted so that one can see clearly what is coming down the river, or coming up. Because a womans biology is very interlinked not only with the other females in her circle, but with nature herself in the moon, and tides, and paths of planets, and the solar system, and the galaxy .we seem to have an edge in pattern recognizing, which IMO is not soley a survival technique, but in a very real way is the way in which the cosmos functions.
when I was reading the responses here I had some wonderful experiences in real life that I wanted to share, as they are not only uncanny coincidences but sources of deep meaning for me personally.
Kasper, your comment on using breathe control is right on the money. I was born with chronic asthma, and have struggled with this disease my whole life. I have worked hard at recognizing triggers for this, changing behaviors to avoid symptoms, and accepting myself because of my personal limitation. Right before I read your response, I had a flair up...which I hadn't had in months and I attribute to not only spring allergies but my emotional state which was compromised by my recent break up in my marriage. So thank you for reminding me that I need to keep my focus on myself and what is going on with in.
Takamba, that day I had several appointments downtown, and being alone I could have easily walked fearfully, but your simple phrase Thank You For Playing, kept a smile on my face, and a confident stride.....and not one person seemed threatening to me at all, even the gangbangers hanging on the corner politely opened the door for me with out so much as a come on.
Mr. Eshelman, it felt like you may have been looking through my eyes as I spent a great part of my morning watching my ducks swim and play in my pond. It was a beautiful lesson to hear, and since I draw much of my understanding of magick and occult and life from my observations of nature it was refreshing to know others relate to metaphors and nature like I do. I also spent some time that day driving in very heavy rain and heavy traffic, ( nothing compared to L.A., which I remind myself as I navigate NY drivers, I often think every NYer should have to pass a driving test in L.A. Before the get a license). I completely relate to that metaphor, and think that the wear and tear on the human body, is akin to the wear and tear of a car driven heavy on the gas and brake. I just wish I could better read the road signs so I know what's coming up ahead, and have better mirrors to see what's approaching from behind.
Bereshith...you will appreciate that before I read your post, I had dreamt of riding a wild horse, taking the reigns and feeling the wind in my hair. As I was reading your post, my Pandora music program ( in which I probably have fifty channels between my tastes, my ten year old. Girls tastes, andmy 12year old boys tastes)
Played the beautiful song Wild Horses by the Rolling Stones. I always think of you and what you said about Simple Man.P.....one of the reasons that I broke up with my husband is that I don't like his HatefulHeavyMusic blarring through the house, especially when I am caretakibg for others children. I am strongly reactive to that sort of fast drumming, heavy bass and demonic like vocals. for you to suggest I listen to a song about Intolerance by a HM band was a deep message for me, I made it through the song, with out getting sick, and I even listened to it again.
I am very thankful for all the responses, and Grateful that I receive tolerance and acceptance here. It truly empowers me to bring myself to the next level.
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I did check out the link, read it twice. I agree with it for the most part. I disagreed with the line about constipation, as ime and training depression can cause distress in the whole GI tract, and is not limited to constipation, but other GI issues as well. But that is neither here nor there really in the topic at hand of tolerance and intolerance.
Curious, you were googling something on the net, and came across this article and thought "hey this has some sort of relevance to that thread on TOT" and shared it.?
I guess I don't see what motivated you to share that,
So I am left guessing....Does Kasper want me to know that when I see irritated people they may be depressed, and be the intolerant sort, so I should steer clear?
Or as a personal mode of behavior modi faction, are you saying we all should watch our emotional swings, so that when we become irritated we understand that we are likely to swing our pendulum to the intolerant side, thus becoming disequiliberated?
I do see a keen relationship between irritation and intolerance, which if not corrected could bring about significant biochemical changes, thus giving a diagnosis of clinical depression.
I know personally many clinically depressed people, and have had many people come to me for aid to help them overcome this. There are solid ways to overcome this temporary slump, ie eating right, excersize, fresh air, sunshine, mantras, prayer, service, sex......and there are solid ways to change this if it is a genetic unfolding in which the person is not producing The deal amount of neurotransmitters.
But this issue of tolerance and intolerance appears to me to be a path that some aggressively pursue by choice. Some people hate another person simp,y on the basis of skin color, body style, sexual path, economics, and who knows what else. To me that choice is more likely based on fear and ignorance then being a clinically depressed person.
To me that is a way to bandaid and say, see I don't have a choice, I can't do anything about this, I am destined/fated/created this way, and their is nothing I can do to change, even if I wanted too.Do you want to have a conversation about this Kasper? You have a habit of plopping down reading material on my desk, and not saying much about it at all. If you want to talk about these findings and share your interoperation and insights I am all ears, but truthfully I have way then enough reading material, and not enough people willing to exchange ideas with.
So, care to talk or just hit me with your one liners?
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I think that this topic needs much more conversation, so I suppose I am attempting to use his brief comment as a spring board to develop this thread topic more, to in courage feedback, ideas and conversation.
From what I have come to understand people who gravitate to the concepts of Thelema on the whole are much more tolerant of diversity, exploration and experimentation. Now maybe some people are born that way, but maybe some people are taught tolerance as well.
In my life the roles that I have played have given me some interesting insights into tolerance my own tolerances and tolerance of my behaviors on interpersonal relationships. as a daughter, sister, mother, gardener, animal trainer, teacher just to name a few, those relationships have shown me how much chaos I can put up with, (ie how big a pile of laundry gets before I get to wash it, how many muddy footprints tracked on the floor before I get to mop, how many cups of coffee can I drink before I am just a jittery mess. Ect Ect).
I feel like sometimes I am just talking at people, not with them. Well that's like me just jerking off in public, I'm sure some won't care, some will love it, but others will call the cops. That's not a discussion, and I truly believe that it is through effective conversation that new things will arise.
So, yea I do give Kasper credit because he at least attempted to keep this thread going, which considering there are about 2000 members on this board, is worthy of some credit.
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Perhaps there's cause behind why (as you perceive) those into Thelema are more tolerant of diversity than others. I'm not judging your perception as accurate or inaccurate, but for the sake of discussion let's assume it is accurate.
Thelemites would be more likely to be tolerant of diversity, as I see things, because one of the things I have learned from studying Thelema is to not be enslaved by ideas. This is not that,and I am not that. For instance, you say "as a daughter, sister, mother, gardener, animal trainer, teacher," you've learned things. That's you identifying with the ideas. Me? I am a person who sometimes fathers, sometimes teaches, sometimes does gardening. If you attack gardeners in your opinions, fathers, teachers, you aren't attacking me - so I'm okay with you having an opinion. I can tolerate you because my tolerance level is set pretty high by not being locked in some "samsara" that these labels actually matter.
Tolerance, I suppose, relates to how personal you take something. If it isn't personal, you can tolerate anything.
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Of course, most (not all) people attracted to Thelema are outsiders - in particular, are outside of the mainstream of their families and communities.
This is exactly the type of person that is more likely than not to vote for diversity and tolerance of "all types."
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Life is full of these interesting crises, where the karma (cause and effect) of our choices erupts into something that makes us stop and reconsider our beliefs about ourselves, and our role in the universe.
I'm hearing you ask questions about just how much you should put up with in your life, and the fact that you are conflicted and reconsidering the mix indicates that it's a good time to stop and reconsider the mix.
At the root of the situations we find ourselves in, there are our beliefs. If we can drill down to a level where we can state those beliefs simply, we can decide whether those beliefs are in line with treating ourselves with honor and dignity.
Change those, and we change our reality.
I think where tolerance comes in, is that it teaches us that there are infinite options on the table. We can be grateful for, and tolerant of, all the options the universe gives us to experiment and learn about ourselves. We can tolerate that there are always people around who are more than willing to show us what the results of or beliefs looks like.
It would be a terrible universe if there weren't people taking other people for granted, expecting them to clean up their messes for them, and not listening to them when they talked. How else could a person experience that, and decide whether they liked it?
Tolerance doesn't mean that you have to keep running an experiment.
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@Takamba said
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Tolerance, I suppose, relates to how personal you take something. If it isn't personal, you can tolerate anything."Most excellent observation! I completely agree.
I was just outside doing yard work, and the sun was so strong I could feel it burning up my skin and pulling the water out of me.
I couldn't tolerate it, so I had to stop and come in out of the heat.
Yet I know of magi and yogis who do incredible feats, miracles even...being burried alive, waking on hot coals, not eating for months.......they have the art of not taking anything personal mastered to such a degree.I have read of incredible feats in the natural world, where frogs in a drought stricken region will hibernate for decades or longer, where insects are frozen solid only to become reanimate upon thaw ( in fact I read about how space itself is be speckled with frozen bacteria just waiting to be revived with warmth and wetness), Yet these creatures are not people, so they obviously don't take things personally.....there driving force simply seems to be and to perpetuate.
But it seems humans, at least this one, has some factor that inclines oneself to take certain things on a personal level. Something that makes one say....I know I can do anything, but I need to differentiate what I will.
Which is most likely the place where we impose self restraint, limitations, boundaries and thresholds. It appears as if it is some sort of evolutionary survival mechanism humans have so that we could withstand all of potentialities the cosmos could throw at us.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Of course, most (not all) people attracted to Thelema are outsiders - in particular, are outside of the mainstream of their families and communities.
This is exactly the type of person that is more likely than not to vote for diversity and tolerance of "all types.""
I can honestly admit to being outside the mainstream, I try to break my own enslavements, and I vote too.
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@kasper81 said
"AOD you seem interested in this link
io am thinking of the John Cleese character Basil Fawlty. he is the epitome of intolerance and irritability and Cleese has talked about this as a portrayal of a depressed man: yes it's comedy but so much comedy is tragi-comedy. I find this interesting as we tend to associate depression with being slumped, quiet and frowning"
( note:below I meant to type shining not shunning, didn't catch the auto correct)
I was more interested in hearing your ideas about it truthfully.I observed something I though was interesting, and I was going to mention it. Your last sentence actually touches on it.
In my studies of yoga asana and ways to correct imbalances in the physical body one of the hardest changes many people have is in regards to this slumping, shut down, and depressed stances is how the shoulders are carried. I have observed that it is almost chronic that humans carry their shoulders rolling forward, like a slump....covering their heart, head and chin tucked. It is a very disempowering stance, one that I feel perpetuates depression, irritability and intolerance.
We are taught that the very best posture to start retraining the body to correct alignment is simply standing, or tadasana posture. In this pose the shoulders are rolled back and many use the visual aid of imagining the heart shunning out, allowing the release of the diaphragm, the neck muscles release, the palms are open, receptivly outward, the chin is lifted and the head aligned with the spine......which then allows the pelvic bowl to be level, the hips stacked under the shoulders, feet straight...I know from my own imbalances and holding patterns that when I am mindful of how my shoulders are being held, I can see how my thoughts, beliefs and perceptions manifest on my physical body.