The Essence of Thelema
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@Los said
"Does anyone here seriously think that a person discovering his actual nature is necessarily dependent on believing in spooks?"
@Jim Eshelman said
"When that True Nature is not limited to the body, a single identity, or a single life... yes."
I guess that was supposed to be an answer to my question.
Unfortunately for you, there is no indication that "True Nature" has anything to do with a spook (also known as "consciousness not dependent on a brain"). In fact, there's a lot that suggests that everything we call a person is a creation of the brain and that a person simply ceases to be when the brain stops working.
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" In fact, there's a lot that suggests that everything we call a person is a creation of the brain and that a person simply ceases to be when the brain stops working"
There is a lot more that suggests that everything we call a person is a creation of our heart...
Which is the first organ to develop, the first cells actually, then the brain and then the skin.www.eurostemcell.org/factsheet/heart-our-first-organ
Which I believe is where a lot of differences in opinion come from,
One camp says the brain
One camp says the senses/ skin
And one says the heart.Just thought you all might like to reflect on that fact which IMO has deep metaphysical implications.
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@Los said
"In fact, there's a lot that suggests that everything we call a person is a creation of the brain and that a person simply ceases to be when the brain stops working."
So, in your opinion, a person is a symptom of the brain? In your opinion, then, is Will also a symptom of the brain?
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
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@Los said
"In fact, there's a lot that suggests that everything we call a person is a creation of the brain and that a person simply ceases to be when the brain stops working."So, in your opinion, a person is a symptom of the brain?"
I would prefer to say "product of," but yes. Everything that you call "you" appears to be a function of what's between your ears. Another way to say this is that the evidence strongly suggests that minds are what brains do.
"In your opinion, then, is Will also a symptom of the brain?"
It seems overwhelmingly likely that thing we call True Will is equally a product of the brain.
And when the brain goes, you go. Hell, a traumatic enough brain injury could radically alter your personality, completely changing your opinions, beliefs, and everything you hold dear.
I realize it's probably really fun for a person to imagine that he or she is some super powerful spook from Sirius who's lived multiple lifetimes before and that his or her transdimensional alien BFFs have named him or her Visible Outer Head of the Elk Society, or whatever, and that the whole universe runs on pixie dust that can grant wishes if one imagines white light hard enough, but all of that is just a bunch of dafto fantasies.
We're all sacks of meat, and we're not forever. Enjoy every minute you have alive, because this is the only chance you have to do so.
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So the only purpose in discovering will, to you, is to enjoy life more before you die?
Also, will in your view of the universe is a misnomer, since it's a side effect of biology, and can be changed fundamentally by random circumstance. Right?
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@Los said
"You asked about the "essence" of a system,"
No, I didn't.
And I'm not aware that Thelema - by your strict definition - has a formalized practice (you mentioned practice specifically), but I'm open to hear what you think. Also, you're the one that mentioned "essential"...
Just so we're clear -- the "essence" in context is this:
"Essence," in metaphysics, is often synonymous with the soul, and some existentialists argue that individuals gain their souls and spirits after they exist, that they develop their souls and spirits during their lifetimes. For Kierkegaard, however, the emphasis was upon essence as "nature." For him, there is no such thing as "human nature" that determines how a human will behave or what a human will be. First, he or she exists, and then comes attribute. Jean-Paul Sartre's more materialist and skeptical existentialism furthered this existentialist tenet by flatly refuting any metaphysical essence, any soul, and arguing instead that there is merely existence, with attributes as essence.
Thus, in existentialist discourse, essence can refer to physical aspect or attribute to the ongoing being of a person (the character or internally determined goals), or to the infinite inbound within the human (which can be lost, can atrophy, or can be developed into an equal part with the finite), depending upon the type of existentialist discourse.Which I think directly applies to the True Will. Even if the idea of a soul turns you off, the individuality and existence are very important concepts to examine...I don't really care about the labels...we could even say "Star" and "orbit."
But, by your definition -- if you mean essential, then, of course, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, etc." is the most important idea of Thelema, as you seem to agree with. But by that definition, a Christian, Buddhist, etc. could be a Thelemite. Unless one cares to dictate what True Will actually means to that specific individual.
In short, I think the True Will idea is important, but it doesn't say much when studying Thelema as a system or a "practice" -- we'll need to look at practices, if it is to be practiced. Which I'm interested in hearing from you which practices you've found to be essential, as you seem to have a good idea what your True Will is...
Just to be clear -- essence, in the discussion of ideas (which is what we are doing), most definitely can include things that are "outside physics" (metaphysics) -- just try to measure a True Will if you don't understand what I mean. Difficult if it is unique to the individual and sometimes not fully known...it is partly a subjective experience, no?
Also, something that seems to be creating confusion in our discourse:
@Los said
"I don't think of Thelema as a religion."
*Thelema (pron.: /θəˈliːmə/; Koine Greek: [θélima]) is a religion[1] that was developed[2] by the early 20th century British writer and ceremonial magician, Aleister Crowley. He came to believe himself to be the prophet of a new age, the Æon of Horus,[3]
Religion is an organized collection of belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[note 1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the Universe. From their ideas about the cosmos and human nature, they tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle. According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world.[1]
*
Of which, Thelema is only one.Whether you agree with the above definitions or not -- these are the working definitions. A Christian may dispute that all one has to do is believe in the idea of Christos -- or "anointed" -- if we wish to go to Greek definitions for our essential ideas...and the practices are something wholly different...which was my point.
So, going further -- when discussing the "essence" of Thelema -- we must include all concepts, practices, beliefs (including metaphysics), etc. to accurately look at all the ideas surrounding it.
The thread isn't called "The Practice of Thelema." But since you imply a system...how does Thelema work in practice by systematically helping one to find their True Will, in your opinion? You still didn't answer the question of "how is it beneficial to you?"
And do you ever talk about the benefits? Do you try to steer others as to what may be more beneficial in trying to find their unique True Will? You still never answered that question, either -- which I'd like to hear your opinion.
Since the core doctrine is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, etc.," it implies absolutely that the True Will of an individual can include anything that said True Will "wills" to do -- and they can still call themselves a Thelemite, yes? I think you're of the opinion that this is permissible by your words below:
@Los said
"Just so we're clear, the concept True Will has a very clear definition (an individual's natural inclinations in conjunction with the actual environment in which he finds himself). Now, what that True Will will actually be for each individual is obviously going to be very different for each person and determinable only by that person."
Going further, a collection of Thelemites can have core beliefs that they agree on, all according to their True Will, which may create a religious system around these beliefs. Which, in fact, they have -- it is called Thelema. One could even argue that it was the True Will of certain people to create the Christian religion.
Anyway, we need to be crystal clear on this -- the difference between Thelema as religion and Thelema as method. Which I'm interested to hear what "practice" you think is viable. Whether the practice is generally accepted or not...as it is a part of the essence by definition.
Your opinion regarding any one else's True Will is your right to have -- in fact, I encourage it -- especially if it is in line with your True Will to have it. That is beyond reproach, IMHO.
@Los said
"I think people can base religions around the concept of Thelema, as the OTO has done, and as I gather Jim's group is doing or trying to do, but since you can have Thelema without the religious trappings, the religious trappings aren't essential to what Thelema is...they're extra bells and whistles (and pretty darn silly ones at that, if you ask me)."
I don't really care one way or the other how another Thelemite chooses to express their metaphysics, beliefs, perform their practices, etc. (there are certain exceptions that do not apply to this discussion). And if you look at my questions, you'll see I reserve judgment on other people's True Wills. But I share many of your sentiments above. However, promulgation of any system that has helped an individual is a matter of personal taste, and, ultimately, could be a part of that person's True Will.
As far as all opinions surrounding "Do what thou wilt, etc." -- you're right, they are all trappings to someone outside that particular True Will and absolutely superfluous. Like this:
@Los said
"For the most part, I find fantasies about utopias and worldwide Thelema-like "religions" to be pie-in-the-sky daydreams that mostly distract from a given individual's True Will.
"I think we are in agreement here. But they are still your opinions about what is useful to another's True Will and ultimately are superfluous to them. Hell, it's possible that someone having those types of opinions are distracting from their True Will. Only that particular person can decide. Agreed?
@Los said
"You ever try reading Crowley's batsh!t political ideas? "The Scientific Solution to the Problem of Government" reads like the blueprints to use the framework of Thelema to impose a totalitarian horrorshow on the world. No thank you. "
I consider much of the text in the commentaries to be politically motivated, too. They are what they are. Part of his True Will, I guess...
I agree. Some of his ideas are OUT THERE.
@Los said
"Do I think a Thelema-inspired religion could be as influential as Christianity? Probably not. The Book of the Law itself predicts that Thelemites will be small in number and "against the people," and I'd wager that's a pretty safe bet."
Agreed. WITH EMPHASIS.
@Los said
"You can't sensibly counter that point by saying, "But Crowley mentions it many times!" That doesn't address my point. You could try to have a go at demonstrating that goblin-beliefs are essential to Thelema -- that a person couldn't be a Thelemite without holding such beliefs -- but you would fail at demonstrating that because it's not true."
I've already addressed the difference between essence and essential in the context of my OP. But I encourage you to delve further than this in the essentials of the practices if you wish -- which could include some examples of your discoveries and beliefs. In fact, I'd like to hear them. I respect your skeptical views and think that you might have some really good points here -- if we could just stick to what's useful...
@Los said
"But yes, for the most part, Thelemites should study the issue, and -- if they're smart -- they'll decide that there's not enough evidence to accept Crowley's claims about goblins. So yes, in that sense it's "relevant" to a study of Crowley's life, and a study of Crowley's life is useful for getting a handle on contextualizing Thelema"
Wholly agree.
So, I'm glad I asked these questions. As I ended my first response, it seems I was correct...
@Frater 639 said
"So, I think we've separated Thelema as religion and Thelema as the sentence laid out in Liber II. It seems you're only concerned with the aspects of Thelema as related to that sentence? Just it being a system of self-awareness and stopping at the individual, correct?"
Is this correct, according to your opinion?
However, if Thelema as practice includes finding a person's independent True Will, their True Will could necessarily include NOT just stopping at the individual, or is that too much of a leap in your opinion?
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I'm interested in your responses.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"So the only purpose in discovering will, to you, is to enjoy life more before you die?
Also, will in your view of the universe is a misnomer, since it's a side effect of biology, and can be changed fundamentally by random circumstance. Right?"
You caught him there. When will stops and asks.... "why do I exist?" "Because you are a product of accidental biology." "Then in fact I am naught and do not exist."
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"It seems overwhelmingly likely that thing we call True Will is equally a product of the brain."
I strongly disagree.
True Will is not a product or result of any brain or mind. If a person thinks they are doing their true will, and using their brain to navigate, in reality they are not doing True Will at all.
True will does not require any brain power, does not require one to reason, or contemplate or reflect. True Will comes soley from the heart. It is about believing, and feeling, and loving, relating, and sharing. A person who is in alignment with their true will never questions that, they just continue with courage, strength, compassion,wisdom, and understanding....love is the law. Love under will. That statement has nothing at all to do with brain power.
The heart is an organ that circulates. Keeps things going. If you have heart disease, you will most likely loose your teeth. The very tool to help you consume what you need.
In the year 1932, my grandmother was pregnant with my mother. In her womb my mother was growing and with in six weeks the embryo that was my mother had already perfectly formed in her ovaries the eggs that would become me and my siblings. Everything that my grandmother ate, and felt ( her emotional highs and lows) became part of my mother, which in a way became part of me. Her thoughts, like a gentle breeze, had no effect, but the biochemicals flooding her circulatory system, greatly impact the unborn.
As I understand Thelema, it is about training or retraining that muscle we call the heart, so that an organism is in accordance with the supreme axiom Love is the Law. In the healing community, be it medical doctors, or gurus or others, you can hear the phrases....
I don't know......(what's wrong, how to fix, what to do) I can't....
That's the mind, this brain.....
But you can also hear
I believe, I trust, I am willing, I surrender
That's the heart, And if you listen to the messages of the heart you can heal what ever ails you, you can enjoy any challenge, you can be love under will, which is TrueWill.The mind and brain shackle us.
But it is through the heart that we are freed. -
@Frater 639 said
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For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
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To me (pardon the pun!) the very concept of 'true will' implies a teleological universe - or a universe embedded with 'purpose' or 'design' (even if the purpose is nothing more than the discovery of purpose).
If purpose, will, or 'intention' is embedded in the universe - this implies of course 'higher intelligence' of some kind.
Taking this thought further, then both 'finding the true will' is harmonious with discovery of higher intelligence in the universe, which would appear to counter a few of Los' claims on this forum.
Teleology of course if frowned upon in modern cosmology - as there is no evidence so far to support any teleological claim.
I would imagine Los' response is predictable here, but curious to hear of others accept a teleological universe as part of the 'essence' of Thelema.
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Los does not believe that Thelema is a religion, but rather a philosophy (although he warns us that 'too much philosophy can be a dangerous thing)
Bill O'Reilly from FOX news does not believe Christianity is a religion either, he believes Christianity is a philosophy
www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/11/28/bill-oreilly-christianity-is-not-a-religion-its-a-philosophy/As you can see, just about anyone can have any ol belief system they want
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I have a problem with your word choice, but I think I agree completely with your basic meaning.
My objection with calling the universe teleological is that this implies an original cause - a universe that came from somewhere etc. (Teleos itself just means "entire, complete," etc. - whole-speaking Nuit language - but the philosophical term has generally been centered around single causation.) Before 1904, Crowley had already rejected that there is any single cause from which creation began, modelling instead that everything came from nothing; and CCXX runs along the same lines.
Semantics aside... I think you are saying that there is a fundamental wholeness and interconnectedness to the universe, and with this I agree. The root principles of Thelema (whether viewed as "occult" or not) make no sense to me - none in the slightest - without the adopted principle of interconnected wholeness, all points coexisting within the same space (metaphorically), all Wills as local unfurling of individual-0unit participation in a greater, interrelated whole.
Without that, it would be little more than a doctrine of anarchic selfishness. I wouldn't bother with it.
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@ldfriend56 said
"Los does not believe that Thelema is a religion, but rather a philosophy (although he warns us that 'too much philosophy can be a dangerous thing)"
I settled, over the last year, on the term "world-view." There are problems with both "religion" and "phlosophy." However, the world-view of Thelema can serve as (among other things) either a religion or a philsophy.
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@Frater 639 said
"I like this "essence" for sure. But I also like that kissing Hadit part, too."
When one realizes all things come from, live within - Nuit
Never parting, or for a moment becoming separate
One is conscious of the continuity of existence
Offering transcendental loving service as Hadit -
@Jim Eshelman said
"I have a problem with your word choice, but I think I agree completely with your basic meaning.
My objection with calling the universe teleological is that this implies an original cause - a universe that came from somewhere etc. (Teleos itself just means "entire, complete," etc. - whole-speaking Nuit language - but the philosophical term has generally been centered around single causation.) Before 1904, Crowley had already rejected that there is any single cause from which creation began, modelling instead that everything came from nothing; and CCXX runs along the same lines. "
I'm using it not as a original cause but of a final completion into something that was designed or ordered. For example, I can't find the verse or quote, but Crowley often referred to the role of reincarnating adepts to continue to help guide humanity and the earth to become a temple of the holy ghost - i assume a metaphor for an enlightened humanity. Liber Al then would be an example of such a teleological trajectory - higher intelligence guiding humanity to find it's true purpose in the universe.
"Semantics aside... I think you are saying that there is a fundamental wholeness and interconnectedness to the universe, and with this I agree. The root principles of Thelema (whether viewed as "occult" or not) make no sense to me - none in the slightest - without the adopted principle of interconnected wholeness, all points coexisting within the same space (metaphorically), all Wills as local unfurling of individual-0unit participation in a greater, interrelated whole."
Yes - agreed! Do you agree that this implies contacting higher intelligence and such contact would therefore also be elementary to the discovery of the true will?
"Without that, it would be little more than a doctrine of anarchic selfishness. I wouldn't bother with it."
total agreement
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@ldfriend56 said
"
"Semantics aside... I think you are saying that there is a fundamental wholeness and interconnectedness to the universe, and with this I agree. The root principles of Thelema (whether viewed as "occult" or not) make no sense to me - none in the slightest - without the adopted principle of interconnected wholeness, all points coexisting within the same space (metaphorically), all Wills as local unfurling of individual-0unit participation in a greater, interrelated whole."Yes - agreed! Do you agree that this implies contacting higher intelligence and such contact would therefore also be elementary to the discovery of the true will?"
I hold that the only substance constituting anything at all in the universe is consciousness, and I observe that the human nervous system is incapable of sustaining the purest, fullest, "highest" form of this - and, therefore, in that particular sense, "higher intelligence" is involved (something more extensive and complete than what registers in the human nervous system) and, of course, that this naturally impels one in the way of True Will except where we mobilize resistance to stop ourselves.
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@ldfriend56 said
"Los does not believe that Thelema is a religion, but rather a philosophy (although he warns us that 'too much philosophy can be a dangerous thing)"
@ldfriend56 said
"
I would imagine Los' response is predictable here, but curious to hear of others accept a teleological universe as part of the 'essence' of Thelema."Well, teleology, in philosophy, roughly asks "why are we here?" So, I can see how this might apply to someone personally and collectively in Thelema. I think it is part of the True Will. Definitely a part of the metaphysics, beliefs, etc., so yes: I think it is part of the essence.
A "higher" intelligence "guiding"...the terms get a little fuzzy for me...I understand the idea of a hierarchy, but aren't certain collective functions just the name that we give the value and potential of a given way of organization?
Not to be confused with a categorical imperative. As soon as it becomes predestination or a priori, or a necessary specific "linear" direction to evolution and life in all cases, then I think it falls flat on its face.
The closest I can come to considering Thelemic-based teleology would be studying the evolution of the unit and how it is dynamically related to the vectors of the evolution of the whole and vice versa. But teleogically why?
Love is the vehicle. Unity is the state. Attraction is the bycoming.
So, I guess it would be "biosurvival in a collective sense." But that doesn't really say much. I get more out of seeing morphogenetic fields in biology. Or, maybe, just phototropism.
*Growth towards a light source is called positive phototropism, while growth away from light is called negative phototropism. Most plant shoots exhibit positive phototropism, while roots usually exhibit negative phototropism. *
*THE PASSIONS, ETC.
I. Since the **ultimate truth of teleology **is unknown, all codes of morality are arbitrary.
II. Therefore the student has no concern with ethics as such.
III. He is consequently free 'to do his duty in that state of life to which it has pleased God to call him.' *I think "ultimate truth" is the keyword here -- implying that it is unknown what pertains to everyone because of the uniqueness of their True Will. Also, these comments are addressed to the student, and should be taken in context of the basic student curriculum. I would definitely leave room for extension -- depending on the unique True Will, covered in point III.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Semantics aside... I think you are saying that there is a fundamental wholeness and interconnectedness to the universe, and with this I agree. The root principles of Thelema (whether viewed as "occult" or not) make no sense to me - none in the slightest - without the adopted principle of interconnected wholeness, all points coexisting within the same space (metaphorically), all Wills as local unfurling of individual-0unit participation in a greater, interrelated whole.
Without that, it would be little more than a doctrine of anarchic selfishness. I wouldn't bother with it."
I agree with you. Or, at least some weird form of solipsism.
@Jim Eshelman said
"[I settled, over the last year, on the term "world-view." There are problems with both "religion" and "phlosophy." However, the world-view of Thelema can serve as (among other things) either a religion or a philsophy."
Well, I can see where you're coming from as an "insider." But, the fact is, pragmatically, people refer to it as a religion, in the "mundane" sense. I learned not to shy away from calling that, too -- it has negative connotations of fanaticism -- hard to avoid. I learned to get over the hype about what other people call it...
It has dieties, practices, assemblies, belief systems, a holy book, a prophet, spirituality, etc. From an objective, anthropological perspective, it can more accurately be called a religion. We should probably learn to own that term and not shy away from it. Even though we consider it otherwise in practice...of course we know better!
But the perception of other people, when you say "it's not a religion" -- I think strikes them as disingenuous, misleading, and possibly a little cultish. I understand your point of view, though. I wish there were a more universal term that was more accurate. Weltanschauung the closest that I can come up with, but only from a certain point of view. Unfortunately, it's not really that colloquial...and it doesn't have all the elements like dieties, etc. that Thelema has "as religion"...
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I don't say it's not a religion. I say it's bigger than a religion. (The religion of Thelema is a subset of the whole cheese ball.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't say it's not a religion. I say it's bigger than a religion. (The religion of Thelema is a subset of the whole cheese ball.)"
Gotcha. I meant the general "you." I do that a lot and it seems that people misunderstand me sometimes...
Funny though, I was about to edit that and sub "one says" instead...and then I saw your post.
Interesting how that works.
In any event, I agree.
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"And when the brain goes, you go. Hell, a traumatic enough brain injury could radically alter your personality, completely changing your opinions, beliefs, and everything you hold dear."
If we are going to call True Will just a product of our brain, does this mean those with traumatic brain injury have no "True Will"? Or those that undergo brain injury have their "True Wills" altered, and or taken away? Is it then, to you just some meaningless "product" that is subject to your meaningless surroundings and circumstance? If so, why bother trying to "discover it" if one would have to continually redefine it? It seems this "product" would be as illusive as chasing a rainbow. I hardly agree with this idea.
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I think the only essence to Thelema, if one can speak of essence at all, is that one accept the Book of the Law as one's guide in life.
One can do that without subscribing to any particular Thelemic affiliation or organization (A:.A:., O.T.O., Order of Thelema, etc.)
If one does subscribe to any of those particular Thelemic affiliations or organizations, since they are Thelemic, one must first accept the Book of the Law as one's guide in life, and then on top of that there are further obligations one undertakes to fulfil, promises one makes, etc.
For example, with the A:.A:., one is in effect agreeing to contribute towards the the evolution of humankind by (as one might colloquially say) "sorting oneself out"; with the O.T.O., one is agreeing to the fraternal rules of that organization, which again has, as its primary goal, the furthering of human evolution, but by means of social organization more than personal development. (I don't feel qualified to speak about the Order of Thelema, but I'm sure there must be some analogous agreement or obligation there too.)
On the broader issue, I think Jim is absolutely spot on in his addendum to Los' thoughts.
It all depends on what "one" really is, on what the real identity and nature of this thing here is.
But that is for one to explore, using the Book of the Law as one's primary guide, with appeal to the Beast's writings, particularly the other Holy Books, as a secondary guide; and, if one is a member of any of the Orders, with the help of one's superiors in those Orders, as one's tertiary guides.
On an even broader level, one can be a Thelemite au naturel, without even having even come across the Book of the Law, if one's life and doings are in the spirit of that Book. There are probably many, many more "natural" Thelemites in the world than there are "official" Thelemites, although it's probably safe to say that "we" are a tiny minority in absolute terms.