The Essence of Thelema
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Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?
Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
"It seems overwhelmingly likely that thing we call True Will is equally a product of the brain."
I strongly disagree.
True Will is not a product or result of any brain or mind. If a person thinks they are doing their true will, and using their brain to navigate, in reality they are not doing True Will at all.
True will does not require any brain power, does not require one to reason, or contemplate or reflect. True Will comes soley from the heart. It is about believing, and feeling, and loving, relating, and sharing. A person who is in alignment with their true will never questions that, they just continue with courage, strength, compassion,wisdom, and understanding....love is the law. Love under will. That statement has nothing at all to do with brain power.
The heart is an organ that circulates. Keeps things going. If you have heart disease, you will most likely loose your teeth. The very tool to help you consume what you need.
In the year 1932, my grandmother was pregnant with my mother. In her womb my mother was growing and with in six weeks the embryo that was my mother had already perfectly formed in her ovaries the eggs that would become me and my siblings. Everything that my grandmother ate, and felt ( her emotional highs and lows) became part of my mother, which in a way became part of me. Her thoughts, like a gentle breeze, had no effect, but the biochemicals flooding her circulatory system, greatly impact the unborn.
As I understand Thelema, it is about training or retraining that muscle we call the heart, so that an organism is in accordance with the supreme axiom Love is the Law. In the healing community, be it medical doctors, or gurus or others, you can hear the phrases....
I don't know......(what's wrong, how to fix, what to do) I can't....
That's the mind, this brain.....
But you can also hear
I believe, I trust, I am willing, I surrender
That's the heart, And if you listen to the messages of the heart you can heal what ever ails you, you can enjoy any challenge, you can be love under will, which is TrueWill.The mind and brain shackle us.
But it is through the heart that we are freed. -
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
@Frater 639 said
"
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
."
To me (pardon the pun!) the very concept of 'true will' implies a teleological universe - or a universe embedded with 'purpose' or 'design' (even if the purpose is nothing more than the discovery of purpose).
If purpose, will, or 'intention' is embedded in the universe - this implies of course 'higher intelligence' of some kind.
Taking this thought further, then both 'finding the true will' is harmonious with discovery of higher intelligence in the universe, which would appear to counter a few of Los' claims on this forum.
Teleology of course if frowned upon in modern cosmology - as there is no evidence so far to support any teleological claim.
I would imagine Los' response is predictable here, but curious to hear of others accept a teleological universe as part of the 'essence' of Thelema.
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
Los does not believe that Thelema is a religion, but rather a philosophy (although he warns us that 'too much philosophy can be a dangerous thing)
Bill O'Reilly from FOX news does not believe Christianity is a religion either, he believes Christianity is a philosophy
www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/11/28/bill-oreilly-christianity-is-not-a-religion-its-a-philosophy/As you can see, just about anyone can have any ol belief system they want
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Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
I have a problem with your word choice, but I think I agree completely with your basic meaning.
My objection with calling the universe teleological is that this implies an original cause - a universe that came from somewhere etc. (Teleos itself just means "entire, complete," etc. - whole-speaking Nuit language - but the philosophical term has generally been centered around single causation.) Before 1904, Crowley had already rejected that there is any single cause from which creation began, modelling instead that everything came from nothing; and CCXX runs along the same lines.
Semantics aside... I think you are saying that there is a fundamental wholeness and interconnectedness to the universe, and with this I agree. The root principles of Thelema (whether viewed as "occult" or not) make no sense to me - none in the slightest - without the adopted principle of interconnected wholeness, all points coexisting within the same space (metaphorically), all Wills as local unfurling of individual-0unit participation in a greater, interrelated whole.
Without that, it would be little more than a doctrine of anarchic selfishness. I wouldn't bother with it.
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
@ldfriend56 said
"Los does not believe that Thelema is a religion, but rather a philosophy (although he warns us that 'too much philosophy can be a dangerous thing)"
I settled, over the last year, on the term "world-view." There are problems with both "religion" and "phlosophy." However, the world-view of Thelema can serve as (among other things) either a religion or a philsophy.
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
@Frater 639 said
"I like this "essence" for sure. But I also like that kissing Hadit part, too."
When one realizes all things come from, live within - Nuit
Never parting, or for a moment becoming separate
One is conscious of the continuity of existence
Offering transcendental loving service as Hadit -
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
@Jim Eshelman said
"I have a problem with your word choice, but I think I agree completely with your basic meaning.
My objection with calling the universe teleological is that this implies an original cause - a universe that came from somewhere etc. (Teleos itself just means "entire, complete," etc. - whole-speaking Nuit language - but the philosophical term has generally been centered around single causation.) Before 1904, Crowley had already rejected that there is any single cause from which creation began, modelling instead that everything came from nothing; and CCXX runs along the same lines. "
I'm using it not as a original cause but of a final completion into something that was designed or ordered. For example, I can't find the verse or quote, but Crowley often referred to the role of reincarnating adepts to continue to help guide humanity and the earth to become a temple of the holy ghost - i assume a metaphor for an enlightened humanity. Liber Al then would be an example of such a teleological trajectory - higher intelligence guiding humanity to find it's true purpose in the universe.
"Semantics aside... I think you are saying that there is a fundamental wholeness and interconnectedness to the universe, and with this I agree. The root principles of Thelema (whether viewed as "occult" or not) make no sense to me - none in the slightest - without the adopted principle of interconnected wholeness, all points coexisting within the same space (metaphorically), all Wills as local unfurling of individual-0unit participation in a greater, interrelated whole."
Yes - agreed! Do you agree that this implies contacting higher intelligence and such contact would therefore also be elementary to the discovery of the true will?
"Without that, it would be little more than a doctrine of anarchic selfishness. I wouldn't bother with it."
total agreement
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
@ldfriend56 said
"
"Semantics aside... I think you are saying that there is a fundamental wholeness and interconnectedness to the universe, and with this I agree. The root principles of Thelema (whether viewed as "occult" or not) make no sense to me - none in the slightest - without the adopted principle of interconnected wholeness, all points coexisting within the same space (metaphorically), all Wills as local unfurling of individual-0unit participation in a greater, interrelated whole."Yes - agreed! Do you agree that this implies contacting higher intelligence and such contact would therefore also be elementary to the discovery of the true will?"
I hold that the only substance constituting anything at all in the universe is consciousness, and I observe that the human nervous system is incapable of sustaining the purest, fullest, "highest" form of this - and, therefore, in that particular sense, "higher intelligence" is involved (something more extensive and complete than what registers in the human nervous system) and, of course, that this naturally impels one in the way of True Will except where we mobilize resistance to stop ourselves.
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
@ldfriend56 said
"Los does not believe that Thelema is a religion, but rather a philosophy (although he warns us that 'too much philosophy can be a dangerous thing)"
@ldfriend56 said
"
I would imagine Los' response is predictable here, but curious to hear of others accept a teleological universe as part of the 'essence' of Thelema."Well, teleology, in philosophy, roughly asks "why are we here?" So, I can see how this might apply to someone personally and collectively in Thelema. I think it is part of the True Will. Definitely a part of the metaphysics, beliefs, etc., so yes: I think it is part of the essence.
A "higher" intelligence "guiding"...the terms get a little fuzzy for me...I understand the idea of a hierarchy, but aren't certain collective functions just the name that we give the value and potential of a given way of organization?
Not to be confused with a categorical imperative. As soon as it becomes predestination or a priori, or a necessary specific "linear" direction to evolution and life in all cases, then I think it falls flat on its face.
The closest I can come to considering Thelemic-based teleology would be studying the evolution of the unit and how it is dynamically related to the vectors of the evolution of the whole and vice versa. But teleogically why?
Love is the vehicle. Unity is the state. Attraction is the bycoming.
So, I guess it would be "biosurvival in a collective sense." But that doesn't really say much. I get more out of seeing morphogenetic fields in biology. Or, maybe, just phototropism.
*Growth towards a light source is called positive phototropism, while growth away from light is called negative phototropism. Most plant shoots exhibit positive phototropism, while roots usually exhibit negative phototropism. *
*THE PASSIONS, ETC.
I. Since the **ultimate truth of teleology **is unknown, all codes of morality are arbitrary.
II. Therefore the student has no concern with ethics as such.
III. He is consequently free 'to do his duty in that state of life to which it has pleased God to call him.' *I think "ultimate truth" is the keyword here -- implying that it is unknown what pertains to everyone because of the uniqueness of their True Will. Also, these comments are addressed to the student, and should be taken in context of the basic student curriculum. I would definitely leave room for extension -- depending on the unique True Will, covered in point III.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Semantics aside... I think you are saying that there is a fundamental wholeness and interconnectedness to the universe, and with this I agree. The root principles of Thelema (whether viewed as "occult" or not) make no sense to me - none in the slightest - without the adopted principle of interconnected wholeness, all points coexisting within the same space (metaphorically), all Wills as local unfurling of individual-0unit participation in a greater, interrelated whole.
Without that, it would be little more than a doctrine of anarchic selfishness. I wouldn't bother with it."
I agree with you. Or, at least some weird form of solipsism.
@Jim Eshelman said
"[I settled, over the last year, on the term "world-view." There are problems with both "religion" and "phlosophy." However, the world-view of Thelema can serve as (among other things) either a religion or a philsophy."
Well, I can see where you're coming from as an "insider." But, the fact is, pragmatically, people refer to it as a religion, in the "mundane" sense. I learned not to shy away from calling that, too -- it has negative connotations of fanaticism -- hard to avoid. I learned to get over the hype about what other people call it...
It has dieties, practices, assemblies, belief systems, a holy book, a prophet, spirituality, etc. From an objective, anthropological perspective, it can more accurately be called a religion. We should probably learn to own that term and not shy away from it. Even though we consider it otherwise in practice...of course we know better!
But the perception of other people, when you say "it's not a religion" -- I think strikes them as disingenuous, misleading, and possibly a little cultish. I understand your point of view, though. I wish there were a more universal term that was more accurate. Weltanschauung the closest that I can come up with, but only from a certain point of view. Unfortunately, it's not really that colloquial...and it doesn't have all the elements like dieties, etc. that Thelema has "as religion"...
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
I don't say it's not a religion. I say it's bigger than a religion. (The religion of Thelema is a subset of the whole cheese ball.)
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't say it's not a religion. I say it's bigger than a religion. (The religion of Thelema is a subset of the whole cheese ball.)"
Gotcha. I meant the general "you." I do that a lot and it seems that people misunderstand me sometimes...
Funny though, I was about to edit that and sub "one says" instead...and then I saw your post.
Interesting how that works.
In any event, I agree.
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
"And when the brain goes, you go. Hell, a traumatic enough brain injury could radically alter your personality, completely changing your opinions, beliefs, and everything you hold dear."
If we are going to call True Will just a product of our brain, does this mean those with traumatic brain injury have no "True Will"? Or those that undergo brain injury have their "True Wills" altered, and or taken away? Is it then, to you just some meaningless "product" that is subject to your meaningless surroundings and circumstance? If so, why bother trying to "discover it" if one would have to continually redefine it? It seems this "product" would be as illusive as chasing a rainbow. I hardly agree with this idea.
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
I think the only essence to Thelema, if one can speak of essence at all, is that one accept the Book of the Law as one's guide in life.
One can do that without subscribing to any particular Thelemic affiliation or organization (A:.A:., O.T.O., Order of Thelema, etc.)
If one does subscribe to any of those particular Thelemic affiliations or organizations, since they are Thelemic, one must first accept the Book of the Law as one's guide in life, and then on top of that there are further obligations one undertakes to fulfil, promises one makes, etc.
For example, with the A:.A:., one is in effect agreeing to contribute towards the the evolution of humankind by (as one might colloquially say) "sorting oneself out"; with the O.T.O., one is agreeing to the fraternal rules of that organization, which again has, as its primary goal, the furthering of human evolution, but by means of social organization more than personal development. (I don't feel qualified to speak about the Order of Thelema, but I'm sure there must be some analogous agreement or obligation there too.)
On the broader issue, I think Jim is absolutely spot on in his addendum to Los' thoughts.
It all depends on what "one" really is, on what the real identity and nature of this thing here is.
But that is for one to explore, using the Book of the Law as one's primary guide, with appeal to the Beast's writings, particularly the other Holy Books, as a secondary guide; and, if one is a member of any of the Orders, with the help of one's superiors in those Orders, as one's tertiary guides.
On an even broader level, one can be a Thelemite au naturel, without even having even come across the Book of the Law, if one's life and doings are in the spirit of that Book. There are probably many, many more "natural" Thelemites in the world than there are "official" Thelemites, although it's probably safe to say that "we" are a tiny minority in absolute terms.
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Love is the law, love under will.The essence of Thelema is the perfect union of Willing and Loving.
To the extent that Love can be completely disorienting and overwhelming, it must be placed under the rule of conscious Willing in order to give it appropriate boundaries, form, and purposeful direction.
The rest is instruction and method toward complete understanding and mastery.
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
@Frater 639 said
"I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema"
I never gave my basic answer to this. Here it is. (It is summarized in the interrelationship of three principles, arising out of a single communication.)
Thelema is a world-view founded on a system of principles articulated in Liber Legis (The Book of the Law).
The Book of the Law is revolutionary. (It seems basic to Thelema that it’s foundation work is revolutionary.) Liber L. announced the dawning of a new era for humanity. The archetype of an eternally birthing child has superseded that of a sacrificed god as the central archetype of transformation. The formula of spiritual awakening is no longer one of death (or death and resurrection), but of **continually new life. **
Three words declare the core principles of Thelema:
- Thelêma, meaning Will
- Agapê, meaning Love
- Tzaba, meaning Star
The Greek Thelema means “will.” It refers to the True Will, the root divine impulse or Truth-of-self inherent to each of us: our experience of ourselves as separate, unique beings having differentiated natures, experience, and purpose.
The Greek Agape means “love.” It refers to our experience that there is no separation between any of us – that all of us are inseverably ONE, part of a single whole. Agape is the complement of the individualizing, differentiating principle called Thelema. Love is unity. In practical spiritual training, Agape refers to passionate love of the Divine as a basis for profound and unconditional human love.
The Hebrew Tzaba means “star.” It expresses the first direct teaching of The Book of the Law, one that comes even earlier than the doctrines of Will and Love: “Every man and every woman is a star.” (From its start, The Book of the Law announces itself as “The unveiling of the company of heaven.”)
These verses portray each of us as spiritual being alive in a universe of unending wonder and choice. This admonition of our stellar natures is arguably the most important revelation in The Book of the Law. It is the basis of Thelema’s chief metaphor for the nature of life and reality, portraying each of us as a burning, brilliant, creative luminary alive in infinite space – infinite room to be ourselves amidst the company of our fellow stars.
We are sovereign, individual, plotting our own course and going our own way. Yet we are not alone: we are part of a universal whole. These enumerated qualities disclose the intimate intertwining of the companion doctrines of Will (passionate individual particularization) and Love (passionate community and connection). We are both unique and universal.
Will, Love, Star: the three core principles of our system.
From these three core principles, many other principles emerge. Most important in these is the intertwining and inherent relationship between the ideas of Will and Love. We are each individual and we exist in the context of each other. (This triangulation – a third principle transcending and integrating two others – is perhaps the fundamental architecture of things Thelemic.) Nature and nurture are not in conflict. Who we are dynamically is determined continually by our intrinsic nature interacting with environment, self in context of the whole.
From these principles, we envision an ideal social system, a society of free men and women consciously committed and empowered to know and do their True Will, recognizing and affirming this right and duty for everyone else. Such a society embraces diversity, recognizing every expression of the universe as necessary.
In such a society’s religion, each experiences himself or herself as one star within an infinite company of stars.
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@ldfriend56 said
"Los does not believe that Thelema is a religion, but rather a philosophy (although he warns us that 'too much philosophy can be a dangerous thing)"I settled, over the last year, on the term "world-view." There are problems with both "religion" and "phlosophy." However, the world-view of Thelema can serve as (among other things) either a religion or a philsophy."
Los doesn't have a Thelemic weltenshcauung but a sceptical-atheistic-naturalistic-moral-nihilistic weltenshcauung which he conflates with Thelema.
See also: MAGICK WITHOUT TEARS, Chapter XXXI: Religion–Is Thelema a "New Religion"?
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
@Los said
"...Crowley's..."The Scientific Solution to the Problem of Government" reads like the blueprints to use the framework of Thelema to impose a totalitarian horrorshow on the world."
Why would a moral nihilist (like yourself) care if something's totalitarian or not?
-
Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
*
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
*
Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Frater 639 said
"I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema"I never gave my basic answer to this. Here it is. (It is summarized in the interrelationship of three principles, arising out of a single communication.)...
[...]
Three words declare the core principles of Thelema:
- Thelêma, meaning Will
- Agapê, meaning Love
- Tzaba, meaning Star
[...]
"Thanks for posting this, Jim. You touched on this at your Thelema as Method lecture -- and I really enjoyed it. Finish your new book already!!!
When I get a second, I'd like to go further with this idea...while using a Nuit, Hadit, RHK analogy...
HAPPY VENUS DAY!