A Petition on please-do-not-change-the-book-of-the-law
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Alrah said
"lololol Jim. Kill the Kill it is!
Damn... there's no reason why a campaign can't be fun. "Just be careful, since it's only 30 seconds to Mars. "
Good beginnings for me... since Mars and the North node are rather close.
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"But I'd like to see you in latex now...
"After losing 30+ pounds a year ago, I must admit that this could, conceivably, once more be a pleasant sight
" If you've been pulling weighs as well, you could be our 'Iron Man'. 
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"Hey Jason... I just want to say again that although I dislike and doubt the story of the reception and feel Crowley had ulterior motives for such a thing.... I do not doubt that he was an excellent prophet and clairvoyant... capable of navigating the timelines to see in to the future and influence the events of today.
Time... is not the way we think it is. Everything happens at once. Prophets are the people that are more like navigators in the river of time."
Hey Alrah!
Yeah, either way, I feel the book mentioning the changing of the style of a letter, just seems too perfect to this situation. I feel that alone should hold a lot of weight in the decision. Well at least from my humble opinion, but I'm a "believer" in the original story. I feel however, that things like this (regardless of how it comes out) seem to back up the original claim.
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Hey J - I've evolved a bit recently and although I don't personally believe the reception mythos then I think as long as you watch out for the obvious pitfalls of cognitive dissonance and social conformity dynamics around a shared mythos, then believing in the reception myth per se is probably fine. I mean... I believe that a huge ball of thermonuclear fusion outside possesses consciousness, and some people think that's wack, no matter how much I talk about the implications of the Orch OR model. I'm still happy with the idea though.
Petition Update: Today we've added translations of the petition into Tagalog, German and Dutch, with plenty more to come. Thank you again to our volunteers for helping to make this petition an international affair as we roll out a new wave of activism.
93's! -
@Alrah said
"Hey J - I've evolved a bit recently and although I don't personally believe the reception mythos then I think as long as you watch out for the obvious pitfalls of cognitive dissonance and social conformity dynamics around a shared mythos, then believing in the reception myth per se is probably fine. I mean... I believe that a huge ball of thermonuclear fusion outside possesses consciousness, and some people think that's wack, no matter how much I talk about the implications of the Orch OR model. I'm still happy with the idea though.
Petition Update: Today we've added translations of the petition into Tagalog, German and Dutch, with plenty more to come. Thank you again to our volunteers for helping to make this petition an international affair as we roll out a new wave of activism.
93's!"Its fine with me if anyone doesn't believe in it. I actually had strong doubt for MANY years, but then I found the numbers I talked about in the Tablet, and I had to face it was just highly unlikely by chance, and accident. Something put it there. That's MY opinion. If I was more educated in statistics, I would try to prove or reveal how unlikely it is. I can't. No one has to agree, and I know it doesn't matter if they do, but it's enough for me, and that's whats important. I do wish I could share it with others and be able to explore it with those who know more. It just ain't happenin lol. Anyway, thank you for understanding my point of view.
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hello..
i am a big fan and lurker of this forum---for a long time now..
i've always chosen to never post---but to be a student..
but this situation--seems like maybe i should throw in some info.
i am probably the craziest/most trolling 911 truther on the net.
"911 was an inside job"---attacking and studying---a peaceful world revolution against the u.n. for doing 911. and instilling "political correctness" as orwellian thought control b.s.anyway---i'm telling you guys---this is the oto bowing to "political correctness"---cuz technically the u.n. supports crowley--cuz they think its atheistic or dont understand it or whatever---thats the way its been--thats why he's on the beatles sgt pepper album with all the other "pc" prophets.
its ok if you dont want to agree with those points.
the big point is that the oto are being "wussies" and are bowing to the bad guys(filling but not "killing" if i understand correctly)
i think that the commies (un) are noticing that alot of black sabbath fans(crowley related) are starting to turn into conspiracy theorists--so now there is more scrutiny on crowley texts
basically there is a world internet/"entertainment" propaganda program---where the individual has to be unempowered in all situations---to the pc agenda
kind of an example is ---remember how elvis was "king"---well there cant be any kings anymore----nowadays the msm celebrities have to teach scripted pc situations to the "unwashed pig masses"--
so the word "kill" is too individually empowering--and cannot be part of official "un approved" bullshit
anyways this might be a call to action for jim and you guys =to preserve the true essence of the thelema---from the douchebags who want to try to keep it in check
anyways--i so dig you guys----good luck to yall in the future--
be true through whatever "conflicts" arise in this world
shine on!!
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You know, you have the whole kill/full thing backwards (the oto is changing it to "kill")... so...
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@Alrah said
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Hey Jason... I just want to say again that although I dislike and doubt the story of the reception and feel Crowley had ulterior motives for such a thing.... I do not doubt that he was an excellent prophet and clairvoyant... capable of navigating the timelines to see in to the future and influence the events of today.Time... is not the way we think it is. Everything happens at once. Prophets are the people that are more like navigators in the river of time."
http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q648/Takamba93/ProphetDefined_zpsd24e0497.jpg
Not fortune teller!
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93 Takamba,
Good point. Even IF we say he was psychic, I think this quote says a lot about that as well regarding the book of the law and what it "predicts".
"How could he prove that he was of a kind superior to any of the human race, and so entitled to speak with authority? Evidently he must show Knowledge and Power such as no man has ever been known to posses.
2. He showed his Knowledge chiefly by the use of cipher or cryptogram in certain passages to set forth recondite facts,** including some events which had yet to take place, such that no human being could possibly be aware of them.."**Here AC seems to suggest no human being could possibly know about these future events. This seems to leave out the possibility of a psychic ability being used (by him at least) as a basis for the predictions.
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@Jason R said
"93 Takamba,
Good point. Even IF we say he was psychic, I think this quote says a lot about that as well regarding the book of the law and what it "predicts".
"How could he prove that he was of a kind superior to any of the human race, and so entitled to speak with authority? Evidently he must show Knowledge and Power such as no man has ever been known to posses.
2. He showed his Knowledge chiefly by the use of cipher or cryptogram in certain passages to set forth recondite facts,** including some events which had yet to take place, such that no human being could possibly be aware of them.."**Here AC seems to suggest no human being could possibly know about these future events. This seems to leave out the possibility of a psychic ability being used (by him at least) as a basis for the predictions."
Plus, and to remind you, I've pointed this out before, and I'm paraphrasing because I won't take the time to look for the specific quote, Crowley says there are (at least) three criteria for a prediction and the first criteria is that it must be declared a prediction before the fact of the event it predicts. Your fascination with the exactitude with which this "style of a letter" takes place is not made in Liber L as a prediction, but a commandment. By your logic, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" predicted Moses exiting the mount and finding his people worshiping Ba'al as predictive when in fact it was not a prediction, but a commandment.
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@Takamba said
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@Jason R said
"93 Takamba,Good point. Even IF we say he was psychic, I think this quote says a lot about that as well regarding the book of the law and what it "predicts".
"How could he prove that he was of a kind superior to any of the human race, and so entitled to speak with authority? Evidently he must show Knowledge and Power such as no man has ever been known to posses.
2. He showed his Knowledge chiefly by the use of cipher or cryptogram in certain passages to set forth recondite facts,** including some events which had yet to take place, such that no human being could possibly be aware of them.."**Here AC seems to suggest no human being could possibly know about these future events. This seems to leave out the possibility of a psychic ability being used (by him at least) as a basis for the predictions."
Plus, and to remind you, I've pointed this out before, and I'm paraphrasing because I won't take the time to look for the specific quote, Crowley says there are (at least) three criteria for a prediction and the first criteria is that it must be declared a prediction before the fact of the event it predicts. Your fascination with the exactitude with which this "style of a letter" takes place is not made in Liber L as a prediction, but a commandment. By your logic, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" predicted Moses exiting the mount and finding his people worshiping Ba'al as predictive when in fact it was not a prediction, but a commandment."
I respectfully disagree Takamba about what qualifies a "prediction". Nostradamus made plenty of predictions, and many regard them as such, and there were no formal declarations for these from him etc. I don't think there are any real agreed upon rules that make anything a "prediction". Dreams can predict things sometimes, and yet we may not even know these were predictions at the time, and I don't think Awaiz follows any of these rules made by others. Wikipedia says of a prediction:
"A prediction (Latin præ-, "before," and dicere, "to say") or forecast is a statement about the way things will happen in the future, often but not always based on experience or knowledge. While there is much overlap between prediction and forecast, a prediction may be a statement that some outcome is expected, while a forecast is more specific, and may cover a range of possible outcomes."
and
"Predictions have often been made, from antiquity until the present, by using paranormal or supernatural means such as prophecy or by observing omens. Methods including water divining, astrology, numerology, fortune telling, interpretation of dreams, and many other forms of divination, have been used for millennia to attempt to predict the future. These means of prediction have not been proven by scientific experiments."
Nowhere did I read anything about a prediction only being a prediction if there were a statement of any kind making it so before hand.
Look, my point wasn't to argue "hey this IS a prediction", it was more of isn't it significant to weigh the fact the BOL seems to point to this VERY thing? Isn't it ironic that the BOL describes a situation regarding a "single letter", and here we are many many years down the road, with a big deal over a single letter. To ME, that seems a lot like a prediction. Is it definitely? IDK, but it seems to KNOW what to WARN against pretty clearly. I personally would weigh that fact, and the fact it ALSO includes a warning to keep the original in the writing of the Beast, perhaps for this sort of reason.
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@Jason R said
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I respectfully disagree Takamba about what qualifies a "prediction". Nostradamus made plenty of predictions, and many regard them as such, and there were no formal declarations for these from him etc."I don't need to read any more of what you posted (I will, and if it deserves response I will give it) because if this is your thesis (good essay form, it should be your thesis), you are mistaken. Perhaps you haven't fully read the quatrains so popularly quoted, the first page describes the method and purpose (ergo, all other quotable lines pertain to this purpose) as astrological and predictive. So there, you are wrong in this regard. Nostradamus claimed he was being predictive.
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P.S. Takamba,
Sorry, I forgot to address this too. AC may have made arguments about what constitutes a prediction, but the verse about the "proof" being in the ms itself, seems to go against what you say. AC says himself that Awais shows his power and knowledge by way of setting forth recondite facts that no one else could possibly know, WITHIN the BOL. He also had mentioned how he thought the BOL predicted the death of his child. So, even by his own standards he seems to disagree with you in this context. Yes, the verse is written as more of a direction or warning, but the "predictive" part is that the author seemed to uncannily KNOW, to "predict" to warn against it, and even point out the issue of a single letter.
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My point wasn't what an online dictionary defines as prediction (online sources are changeable, ask the OTO about that). My point was that Crowley said a prediction cannot be labelled a prediction unless it was declared a prediction before the event that occurs. Since we are applying this to the works of Crowley, the stringent definition of Crowley's most definitely applies. If you won't apply it, so be it... bunny.
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@Jason R said
"P.S. Takamba,
Sorry, I forgot to address this too. AC may have made arguments about what constitutes a prediction, but the verse about the "proof" being in the ms itself, seems to go against what you say. AC says himself that Awais shows his power and knowledge by way of setting forth recondite facts that no one else could possibly know, WITHIN the BOL. He also had mentioned how he thorught the BOL predicted the death of his child. So, even by his own standards he seems to disagree with you in this context. Yes, the verse is written as more of a direction or warning, but the "predictive" part is that the author seemed to uncannily KNOW, to "predict" to warn against it, and even point out the issue of a single lette."
All of this, by the way, refers me to The Law is for All and I will find the point where he says this very thing I claim (applying it to the things you and he agree with are predictive) and thus therefore diminishes your need to find "prediction" where instead there is direction, not prediction.
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It is my birthday, so I'm not working - but I will later find the quote for you and if you can't accept that somethings are predictions and some things come true because they shouldn't, it isn't "prediction" you should blame, I can't talk with you. It isn't reasonable.
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@Takamba said
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@Jason R said
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I respectfully disagree Takamba about what qualifies a "prediction". Nostradamus made plenty of predictions, and many regard them as such, and there were no formal declarations for these from him etc."I don't need to read any more of what you posted (I will, and if it deserves response I will give it) because if this is your thesis (good essay form, it should be your thesis), you are mistaken. Perhaps you haven't fully read the quatrains so popularly quoted, the first page describes the method and purpose (ergo, all other quotable lines pertain to this purpose) as astrological and predictive. So there, you are wrong in this regard. Nostradamus claimed he was being predictive."
Well I'm sorry. I never bragged about my ability as an accomplished, or even passable essay writer. I'm trying to work on my writing. I have my weaknesses, but I'm honest about them, and no where do I ever disregard another based on their ability to write.
Regardless, my point was that I don't think there are any agreed upon rules of what qualifies something as a prediction. The prediction in Liber L, in regards to this letter situation, I think is shown in his ability to KNOW what situation would arise. It's very ironic, that it warns against changing a "single letter", and here we are dealing with a single letter. The authors seemingly uncanny ability to know what would arise is significant to me. That's all.
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@Jason R said
"Happy Bday.
I said the verse was a direction.
I feel the authors knowledge to include this direction was based on an ability to PREDICT what would arise."
Nice turn of phrase. It was a direction, and the author was Aiwass (if we believe Crowley's description of how the text was received). BUT it was not declared a prediction, so we should not. That minimalizes the direction since it has now already occurred (as a prediction, it's occurrence would be a fulfillment, and thus need no further warrant). It is a direction that Crowley was required to heed and we are all further designed to heed. It was not a "prediction." And regardless of your agreement of what defines a prediction versus not a prediction, I'm telling you that Crowley himself had a definition and according to his definition, this declaration of Aiwass to "change not so much as the style of a letter" WAS NOT a prediction. Why is that worth arguing over?