A Petition on please-do-not-change-the-book-of-the-law
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@Takamba said
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@Jason R said
"93 Takamba,Good point. Even IF we say he was psychic, I think this quote says a lot about that as well regarding the book of the law and what it "predicts".
"How could he prove that he was of a kind superior to any of the human race, and so entitled to speak with authority? Evidently he must show Knowledge and Power such as no man has ever been known to posses.
2. He showed his Knowledge chiefly by the use of cipher or cryptogram in certain passages to set forth recondite facts,** including some events which had yet to take place, such that no human being could possibly be aware of them.."**Here AC seems to suggest no human being could possibly know about these future events. This seems to leave out the possibility of a psychic ability being used (by him at least) as a basis for the predictions."
Plus, and to remind you, I've pointed this out before, and I'm paraphrasing because I won't take the time to look for the specific quote, Crowley says there are (at least) three criteria for a prediction and the first criteria is that it must be declared a prediction before the fact of the event it predicts. Your fascination with the exactitude with which this "style of a letter" takes place is not made in Liber L as a prediction, but a commandment. By your logic, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" predicted Moses exiting the mount and finding his people worshiping Ba'al as predictive when in fact it was not a prediction, but a commandment."
I respectfully disagree Takamba about what qualifies a "prediction". Nostradamus made plenty of predictions, and many regard them as such, and there were no formal declarations for these from him etc. I don't think there are any real agreed upon rules that make anything a "prediction". Dreams can predict things sometimes, and yet we may not even know these were predictions at the time, and I don't think Awaiz follows any of these rules made by others. Wikipedia says of a prediction:
"A prediction (Latin præ-, "before," and dicere, "to say") or forecast is a statement about the way things will happen in the future, often but not always based on experience or knowledge. While there is much overlap between prediction and forecast, a prediction may be a statement that some outcome is expected, while a forecast is more specific, and may cover a range of possible outcomes."
and
"Predictions have often been made, from antiquity until the present, by using paranormal or supernatural means such as prophecy or by observing omens. Methods including water divining, astrology, numerology, fortune telling, interpretation of dreams, and many other forms of divination, have been used for millennia to attempt to predict the future. These means of prediction have not been proven by scientific experiments."
Nowhere did I read anything about a prediction only being a prediction if there were a statement of any kind making it so before hand.
Look, my point wasn't to argue "hey this IS a prediction", it was more of isn't it significant to weigh the fact the BOL seems to point to this VERY thing? Isn't it ironic that the BOL describes a situation regarding a "single letter", and here we are many many years down the road, with a big deal over a single letter. To ME, that seems a lot like a prediction. Is it definitely? IDK, but it seems to KNOW what to WARN against pretty clearly. I personally would weigh that fact, and the fact it ALSO includes a warning to keep the original in the writing of the Beast, perhaps for this sort of reason.
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@Jason R said
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I respectfully disagree Takamba about what qualifies a "prediction". Nostradamus made plenty of predictions, and many regard them as such, and there were no formal declarations for these from him etc."I don't need to read any more of what you posted (I will, and if it deserves response I will give it) because if this is your thesis (good essay form, it should be your thesis), you are mistaken. Perhaps you haven't fully read the quatrains so popularly quoted, the first page describes the method and purpose (ergo, all other quotable lines pertain to this purpose) as astrological and predictive. So there, you are wrong in this regard. Nostradamus claimed he was being predictive.
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P.S. Takamba,
Sorry, I forgot to address this too. AC may have made arguments about what constitutes a prediction, but the verse about the "proof" being in the ms itself, seems to go against what you say. AC says himself that Awais shows his power and knowledge by way of setting forth recondite facts that no one else could possibly know, WITHIN the BOL. He also had mentioned how he thought the BOL predicted the death of his child. So, even by his own standards he seems to disagree with you in this context. Yes, the verse is written as more of a direction or warning, but the "predictive" part is that the author seemed to uncannily KNOW, to "predict" to warn against it, and even point out the issue of a single letter.
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My point wasn't what an online dictionary defines as prediction (online sources are changeable, ask the OTO about that). My point was that Crowley said a prediction cannot be labelled a prediction unless it was declared a prediction before the event that occurs. Since we are applying this to the works of Crowley, the stringent definition of Crowley's most definitely applies. If you won't apply it, so be it... bunny.
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@Jason R said
"P.S. Takamba,
Sorry, I forgot to address this too. AC may have made arguments about what constitutes a prediction, but the verse about the "proof" being in the ms itself, seems to go against what you say. AC says himself that Awais shows his power and knowledge by way of setting forth recondite facts that no one else could possibly know, WITHIN the BOL. He also had mentioned how he thorught the BOL predicted the death of his child. So, even by his own standards he seems to disagree with you in this context. Yes, the verse is written as more of a direction or warning, but the "predictive" part is that the author seemed to uncannily KNOW, to "predict" to warn against it, and even point out the issue of a single lette."
All of this, by the way, refers me to The Law is for All and I will find the point where he says this very thing I claim (applying it to the things you and he agree with are predictive) and thus therefore diminishes your need to find "prediction" where instead there is direction, not prediction.
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It is my birthday, so I'm not working - but I will later find the quote for you and if you can't accept that somethings are predictions and some things come true because they shouldn't, it isn't "prediction" you should blame, I can't talk with you. It isn't reasonable.
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@Takamba said
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@Jason R said
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I respectfully disagree Takamba about what qualifies a "prediction". Nostradamus made plenty of predictions, and many regard them as such, and there were no formal declarations for these from him etc."I don't need to read any more of what you posted (I will, and if it deserves response I will give it) because if this is your thesis (good essay form, it should be your thesis), you are mistaken. Perhaps you haven't fully read the quatrains so popularly quoted, the first page describes the method and purpose (ergo, all other quotable lines pertain to this purpose) as astrological and predictive. So there, you are wrong in this regard. Nostradamus claimed he was being predictive."
Well I'm sorry. I never bragged about my ability as an accomplished, or even passable essay writer. I'm trying to work on my writing. I have my weaknesses, but I'm honest about them, and no where do I ever disregard another based on their ability to write.
Regardless, my point was that I don't think there are any agreed upon rules of what qualifies something as a prediction. The prediction in Liber L, in regards to this letter situation, I think is shown in his ability to KNOW what situation would arise. It's very ironic, that it warns against changing a "single letter", and here we are dealing with a single letter. The authors seemingly uncanny ability to know what would arise is significant to me. That's all.
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@Jason R said
"Happy Bday.
I said the verse was a direction.
I feel the authors knowledge to include this direction was based on an ability to PREDICT what would arise."
Nice turn of phrase. It was a direction, and the author was Aiwass (if we believe Crowley's description of how the text was received). BUT it was not declared a prediction, so we should not. That minimalizes the direction since it has now already occurred (as a prediction, it's occurrence would be a fulfillment, and thus need no further warrant). It is a direction that Crowley was required to heed and we are all further designed to heed. It was not a "prediction." And regardless of your agreement of what defines a prediction versus not a prediction, I'm telling you that Crowley himself had a definition and according to his definition, this declaration of Aiwass to "change not so much as the style of a letter" WAS NOT a prediction. Why is that worth arguing over?
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@Takamba said
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@Jason R said
"Happy Bday.I said the verse was a direction.
I feel the authors knowledge to include this direction was based on an ability to PREDICT what would arise."
Nice turn of phrase. It was a direction, and the author was Aiwass (if we believe Crowley's description of how the text was received). BUT it was not declared a prediction, so we should not. That minimalizes the direction since it has now already occurred (as a prediction, it's occurrence would be a fulfillment, and thus need no further warrant). It is a direction that Crowley was required to heed and we are all further designed to heed. It was not a "prediction." And regardless of your agreement of what defines a prediction versus not a prediction, I'm telling you that Crowley himself had a definition and according to his definition, this declaration of Aiwass to "change not so much as the style of a letter" WAS NOT a prediction. Why is that worth arguing over?"
To me, it's is as if I were to tell you before you left, "watch out for a green car", and as your walking along you get hit by a green car lol. Stupid example, but the point I'm trying to make is that the line is a direction, but WHY did I know to make it? Why "green"? The BOL gives us a direction sure, but we can say it seems to uncannily PREDICT that it was needed, and needed in a situation for a single letter. Savvy? So, yes, its a direction, and not a classic definition of a prediction, but the verse seems to perfectly predict this single letter issue. Maybe I'm just not getting it, but I can't seem to understand how this isn't perfectly clear. Anyway, to me it's not a big deal. If you or anyone else do not feel it predicts anything fine.
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Thing is though Jason, Crowley didnt have to be psychic to understand the work would be, or an attempt would be made eventually.. to redact it, no matter how insignificantly...
He just looked to the past to what has happened with other works. -
@chris S said
"Thing is though Jason, Crowley didnt have to be psychic to understand the work would be, or an attempt would be made eventually.. to redact it, no matter how insignificantly...
He just looked to the past to what has happened with other works."Yes, I agree. So, I guess your saying then that the verse alone is simply to prevent such future changes; but the fact this situation arose and seems to perfectly match the "single letter" warning, is a only coincidence. Could be. My point was only that this seems to predict the situation. Couldn't we argue that the verse was included for both reasons? Awaiz knew this particular situation would arise, and so articulated the verse to suit both the overall warning, and a general meaning, and also sort of prove his power and knowledge by using the "single letter" phrasing? You know what I mean?
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@Jason R said
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@chris S said
"Thing is though Jason, Crowley didnt have to be psychic to understand the work would be, or an attempt would be made eventually.. to redact it, no matter how insignificantly...
He just looked to the past to what has happened with other works."Yes, I agree. So, I guess your saying then that the verse alone is simply to prevent such future changes; but the fact this situation arose and seems to perfectly match the "single letter" warning, is a only coincidence. Could be. My point was only that this seems to predict the situation. Couldn't we argue that the verse was included for both reasons? Awaiz knew this particular situation would arise, and so articulated the verse to suit both the overall warning, and a general meaning, and also sort of prove his power and knowledge by using the "single letter" phrasing? You know what I mean?"
Actually not a coincidence, an inevitability.
Though i feel that the "single letter" phrase was dramatic literature employed to emphasise that the work was received.
Personally i dont think it should be changed, it's dross and pedantic.. which is why it was so easy to predict and advise against.
..imo. -
@chris S said
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Actually not a coincidence, an inevitability. "I would say it's a necessary stage in the life cycle of a religion. As a delightfully heretical Pentacostal minister I knew once described the life cycle of his churches: "The First Generation has the vision. The Second Generation is taught the vision with the witness of their father's conviction. The Third generation recieves the vision only as words, and so has decide between accepting it as scriptural authority, or seeking a new vision by which to get the revelation first hand again."
In other words, interpretation of scripture has to arise as time changes the context of the original revelation so that it's no longer clear, and as the organizational pressures of the external structure impose their own demands/Wills on the individual needs within it. (And here, I'm speaking of the energetic Will of the organizational entity itself, or egregore, if you want to call it that - it wants to live and grow as much as anything else.) The decision by the OHO of the OTO marks the point where a religious authority feels justified in adjusting the valves...because you're really not just swapping out a letter in the text here. There's many other things going on, not the least of which is the affirmation of religious authority "in the name of the Founder" vs. by the Founder's direct instructions. This allows the organization or religion to make whatever continued updates are necessary to stay viable.
But this distances the external religion from the central Mystery that connects it to the Interior. The Book of the Law proposes a solution to this problem. If you take the view that the original text should be preserved as commanded "for in the chance shape of the letters and their position to one another: in these are mysteries that no Beast shall divine", then the Mystery is extended indefinitely, and each person can work it out themselves based on whatever they receive through working with it. It's not possible or necessary to know what the Prophet meant to say or intended to transmit, because - like the little fairy chick says: "Prophets don't know everything!" And in the Book of the Law, the Prophet is clearly designated the scribe, not the author. Once squabbling over interpretation (literally "what should be there instead of what's actually there") sets in, the primacy of the Mystery and the individual relationship to it are very quickly lost, as is the ability to peacefully "break bread together." (Bread=Word, of course.) Crowley's Plymouth Brethren upbringing would have very empahtically taught him this - no prophetic ability even needed here.
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I just don't understand why this change has to be made. Why this insistence on textual uniformity, when the tradition says there are two versions of the Paraphrase? One version was consistently used in The Book of the Law and sometimes in outside contexts, and the other consistently used in the Paraphrase as a stand-alone poem, and sometimes in outside contexts.
There is one piece of evidence that Crowley once thought of changing "fill me" to "kill me" in CCXX, but he never implemented it. Crowley didn't make it, in any of the printings of CCXX, so why does HB think he should make it? Crowley's example is clear and the conclusion indisputable, I think - he didn't want it, whatever the Windram "K" means.
The explanation for the two versions of the final line of obverse of the stele is that Crowley revised the poem. He didn't make a "mistake" when quoting it in XXXI or the Cairo typescript, this is what the poem said and it was his preferred version when he wrote it in XXXI and had the typescript made. Later he changed it to "kill me" and this is what was used in the printed version of the poem in 1912, in the Great Invocation, and in Liber CXX (Cadaveris).
Why does one version have to be wrong, and the other right? There is no more justification in "correcting" the Paraphrase to read "fill me" (as HB did), than there is to "correct" Liber Legis to read "kill me" (which he is about to do). It is just a case of two variants, used consistently in different contexts.
Historically, "fill me" has priority, both in manuscript and printed forms, in Libers XXXI and CCXX.
