nigris, fr. 333 (Black Brother)
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@frater aSP said
"However, I would think Kali herself, as an entity abiding above the Abyss, would have issues with your use of the technical term Black Brother, other than for its antinomian connotations - to me your path seems like Kali's gonna take you all the way, haha."
I received the same impression...
Perhaps I am missing something, as you speak of surrender and the rendering of devotional service.
The blackness of thy mantle a reflection of swirling primal fears?
Or, the obfuscation of the senses, a veil upon the object of worship?
It begs the question, in my opinion, of why you have elected not to cross.You only loose what was never yours to begin with...
Anyway, I welcome you to the forum and look forward to our interaction.
Love is the Law, Love under Will
EDIT:
Never payed much attention to your avatar, looks as if he is munching on some psychedelic honey!
Regardless, I like it
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@Frater Horus said
"...When you call yourself "black brother", do you mean you decided to do not cross the abyss?"
I am convinced that the notion is mistaken and that ideas espoused by those who identify as 'White Brothers' are sometimes quite dualistic and false. I have explored this at some length and you can find my writing about it here:www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/plebe/liber-nigris.html
I'm happy to elaborate on any of this in this thread and will contribute to ongoing discussions about Black Brothers (from Crowleyan or the post-Crowleyan ideological premises). I noticed that a good number of those who i have encountered amongst those who identify with Thelema are what i would call 'Old AEon' (in my sense) in their approach: one bolstering antiquated notions of morality and simplistic evaluation, unused to LHP modalities and antinomian standards of mysticism.
"What do you think about Lilith?
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I am inclined to be cautious of demons and have an abiding respect for goddesses by whom women find empowerment. I have known priestesses of Lilith somewhat closely, but generally do not have a relationship with that goddess."Do you think there is Kali in Lilith and Lilith in Kali?"
I haven't noticed that, no. would you mind elaborating? I'd love to hear more. -
@frater aSP said
"...comment more on your relationship to your guru/wife - particularly how you were able to navigate the line between your mental projection/romantic attachment and the actual spiritual partnership that came about (or whether you'd already dealt with the "ordeal of the siren" previously)."
if i get your question correctly, the manner by which i navigated that line was being previously married, then transitioning to open relationships required and focussing on what is called 'co-counselling' under instruction by my previous partner and Abyss/Abbess. that period of my life which might be compared with grabbing the tail of a moving snake or tiger and holding on with my vows and ideals in mind, notions of projections and attachments were pretty thoroughly purged, aside from quite intentional ones integrated to rite and practice with catherine during our symbolic engagement and marriage."Also, having not been initiated into an actual tantric cult, what are some of the resources (other than allowing nature herself to teach and initiate you) that have given inspiration in defining your path, dealing with kundalini, etc? Particular books? (I've personally been hugely inspired by the Aghora trilogy by Robert Svoboda)"
Kali has been the primary source for my neo-tantra, supplemented and refined by my guru. I read a number of books whose authors i little remember at this point, particularly ones relating to traditional lineages (philosophy/religion, Hindu/Buddhist, a bunch of Tibetan Tantrics and some classics, Woodruff, Agenanda? I forget). Neo-tantrics by my understanding were a probably greater number and included Moffett, Rashneesh, Anand, Noyes, Hesse, instruction from dakinis, priestesses of various goddesses, kalidasas (these latter both in correspondence and most especially in person), and readings of many mystics from conventional religion whose material crossed over into Neo-tantra by my understanding such as Ramakrishna, St. Teresa of Avila, Thomas Merton, and a variety of occultists whose notions of their practice was conducive to my purpose. I was profoundly inspired by bhakti devotees of Krishna and readings from sources like Kinsley, practices with and writings by Neopagans devoted to a goddess, and much later, by art and writing such as that like Mookerji (graphics) and McDaniel (Shaktiist text, wow!)."It seems this lifestyle, particularly the magical and sexual aspects, has a lot to do with making tamasic emotions rajasic and living them out as consciously as possible."
while i am a monolinguist (English), do NOT tend to use Indian terms for things or even find correlates to many of the subtle energies or cosmological notions espoused by yogis or tantrics of any type, i do think i know to what you refer and agree very strongly. embracing, weaving, the diverse strands of life is what Kali informs me are essential to our tantric process. I have been so long out of comparisons i barely even recall what those other streams include. while Kali assures me that my reflections are accurate, in accord with my guru's comparable karezzic current, i no longer have any idea how strongly or where. I've at times tried to become aware of tantra across the board and assimilated some of that at a distance, but based in one language and accepting varying restraints that keep me in one place and avoiding great expense, i am aware of my severe ignorance of tantra at large."However, I would think Kali herself, as an entity abiding above the Abyss, would have issues with your use of the technical term Black Brother, other than for its antinomian connotations"
tell me more! is She above the Abyss? I'm unsure of that, and never got from Her any discomfort from Her on the matter of my Embrace of the Abysmal One. probably it relates to the antinomian aspects and my Satanic-Thelemic alliances (social, religious, esoteric) that it is most appropos vis a vis Black Brotherhood. See Liber Nigris."to me your path seems like Kali's gonna take you all the way, haha."
I've been told similar things from others, though by few who knew me well. those i've heard that from usually have a very different attitude about the world and the Dark Side of things."...what role, if any, does Qabalah play in your current practices?"
I've tried to assimilate a good portion of both conventional (Hermetic) and demonologic (Grantean+) Qabalah in particular as it seemed to apply to my ritual and symbolist activities and my 'career' as a monk/occultist. these were inferred or projected based on pattern-matching in comparison to convention or the writings of others - a good number of recommendations i received about Qliphotic / Typhonian parallels before i began exploring that in earnest and seeing where it might lead; demonology and Satanism actually came later for me as a response to local social movements. previous to and as part of this i have developed a focussed interest on Tarot, English / Romanized Gematria, constructed a Tree of Life suited to this novelty-Tarot, and constructed rudimentary rites and visualizations during my own development which i may use later in greater concentration. the bulk of that, however, has been applied within or finding manifestation in the ordinary world with my guru, with whom i have established a rapport. her eshewal of rite and symbolism to minimums makes our tryst fairly easy and her focus on the material makes both development and evaluation pretty clear in an immediate sense - something about Neo-Tantra which i enjoy (no dividing out the world from my process).see above for the URL to Liber Nigris for more on that Qabalah stuff based on my own interests, or explore this directory:
www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/plebe
I am I!
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I am I!
@Uni_Verse said
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@frater aSP said
"However, I would think Kali herself, as an entity abiding above the Abyss, would have issues with your use of the technical term Black Brother, other than for its antinomian connotations - to me your path seems like Kali's gonna take you all the way, haha."
I received the same impression...Perhaps I am missing something, as you speak of surrender and the rendering of devotional service."
in comportment with the transgressive and as an adversary to the notions of ego-death/dissolution as a facet of development, being smitten with Dakini i understand to reside in the Midst, and content to abandon routes taking me away from 'contaminants', it is possible that the associations i encountered prior amongst the Thelemic no longer are pervasive. surely the use of it as an epithet was completely disgusting to me, and i found within contemplation of its analysis by the Master in such text as Liber Aleph inspiring - not to avoid it but as an attractive and necessary avenue into the Deep. having been so long out of touch with so much of this (reformatted by my guru) i may be completely misremembering the whole, however, so cut me some slack."The blackness of thy mantle a reflection of swirling primal fears?"
not by my estimation or observation, more the grimy grist of 'dangerous black matter' reviewed as 'karmic mass-inducement' by my New Age instructors of old - a conditioning i found helpful later in appreciating the Pure Fluffy Goodness of Neo-tantra's Rainbow Side."Or, the obfuscation of the senses, a veil upon the object of worship?"
there is THAT! Kali is wholly and utterly Black, a Maw of Ma, Kaos and Maelstrom."It begs the question, in my opinion, of why you have elected not to cross."
I found Nothing to get over. I had to reconstruct the whole of the mapping to reflect it properly. here, let me show you what i mean:www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/graphics/tarotreektys.gif
"You only loose what was never yours to begin with..."
I gave Everything up upon dedication to Kali. having nothing to lose or loose, and nothing to gain, you'd have to explain the value of continued movement."Anyway, I welcome you to the forum and look forward to our interaction."
very kind of you and thank you much."Never payed much attention to your avatar, looks as if he is munching on some psychedelic honey! Regardless, I like it
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a wonderful interpretation and quite accurate.Invoke me under my stars! Love is the law, love under will.
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since Wikipedia has been in my recent awareness, what with once more evaluating its cabals of obfuscators opposed to esoterics (in this case those deleting Neopagans), i decided to visit the 'Tantra' page there and see if i might be able to identify some of the elements which i markedly embrace or diverge from in style or idea, for fun. I love to absorb diverse beliefs or presentations from numerous perspectives and this is one way of so doing.
the first thing standing out is the following: Anthony Tribe's definitive qualities have some overlap (and i have certainly engaged my share of mandalas, mantras and worship in a more conventional sense prior to this period) in the following items, as it currently applies: ...worship of deities; transgressive/antinomian acts; revaluation of the body; revaluation of the status and role of women; analogical thinking...; and revaluation of 'negative' mental states. a number of these my guru was already set on also, and some of the others in Tribe's list i've familiarity with (at this point i need to explain a very strong draw for me of Buddhism and springing off the wide open methodology of Nagarjuna, founder of the Madhyamika, the bulk of Buddhists i've encountered couldn't accept my willingness to fully embrace gods as a 'skillful means' of coming to wakefulness in the present moment; my guru falls asleep to mention of Buddhism, which i think is hilarious, while i adore it in all its forms).
secondly, it was meaningful to me, and Kali has repeatedly emphasized this for me: the etymological or usage connection between the term 'tantra' and the loom. this is indicated by the Wikipedia page not only with specific mentions from earliest Rg Veda times but also as it situates and emphasizes the work and genius of women. this bhakti-orientation i have engaged is at times completely at cross-purposes with some of the non-dualist interests who remark upon 'overcoming dualism' or 'becoming a god'. not only do i not (and feel that i never, ever, want) to "achieve" that, it is inimical to my main directives. this apparent tension (some find) between weaving of the poles and never seeking to weave myself or my God together in some fashion is in part why i identify it with Vamamarg and, moreso, with being a Black Brother.
with this statement i find strong agreement: "it is challenging and problematic to describe tantric practices definitively." it is my understanding its extensive age and divergence of culture and instructors have taken it in very different directions. with the development of neo-tantra, at points at a remove from its culture of origin, this becomes even more complicated to assess.
with this statement i find strong disagrement: "Tantra, as a development of early Hindu-Vedic thought, embraced the Hindu gods and goddesses, especially Shiva and Shakti, along with the Advaita philosophy that each represents an aspect of the ultimate Para Brahman, or Adi Parashakti." this notion of an "ultimate", while attractive to me at earlier periods of my life, particularly when dedicatedly engaging meditation and contemplation, completely dropped away in favour of Taoist and Tantric alternatives without such dualistic implications (being polar or process-oriented; consider Whitehead and some comparable Indians or Chinese). in combination with Tree of Life symbolism and the 'trajectory of the Hermetic 'mage' in relation thereto, it may be easier to see why i would not only abandon 'Crossing the Abyss' (having a different experience of the adventure) but also have no interest in uniting with my Holy Guardian Angel into some kind of subsumed reconciliation. this never really appealed to me and struck me as a way to avoid the challenges of gooey life (along the lines of asceticism as compared to embracing a Middle Path).
I strongly resonate with this description: "These deities may be worshipped externally with flowers, incense, and other offerings, such as singing and dancing." as this becomes combined with guru worship, then every service is also an engagement of worship. with the concentration of the God as guru her desires as a human being shape or mould the proper course of the devotional repertoire.
thus with respect to this description:"These deities are engaged internally as attributes of Ishta Devata meditations, the practitioners either visualizing themselves as the deity, or experiencing the darshan (the vision) of the deity." it is less a focus for me of visuals, though it has taken on this form, as audible engagements, which i regularly have with Kali (and now intermittently with Satan). I do not visualize myself as the deity though i would have no problems with this being done.
I would NOT say that this applies to me or to my guru: "In Hindu Tantra practices when bringing together the deity and the devotee, they use both meditation and ritual practices. These practices are divided into three classes of devotees: the animal, heroic, and the divine. In the divine devotee, the rituals are internal. The divine devotee is the only one that can attain the object of the rituals, which are directed to awakening kundalini energy." and in fact kundalini or specific bodily or special energies are not the focus of our activities or aims. I have at times felt as if i could confirm subtle energy center descriptions of chakras and the like, but these never became a repeated meditative focus or resolve, and Kali never suggested that they should. Her, and guru's focus has been more general, attending to the general fabric of life and experience.
while integrating what is said about 'sensate inclusions' (my guru did so long before she met me), i would not say that this accurately characterizes my/our view of sexuality's role with respect to our symbolic rite and union: "For many practicing lineages, these maithuna practices progressed into psychological symbolism." in fact i would say that the term 'progressed' is precisely the opposite of the term that i would use ('regressed' or 'devolved') based on my familiarity with the LHP. also, i cannot confirm that our interests are 'liberation' as described here, and we do not 'eschew frictional orgasm for a higher form of ecstasy.' while these kinds of ascetic actions are not unfamiliar to each of us, the artificiality and transcendental aspects of these were recognized and bypassed for other aims and foci during studies and practices prior to meeting.
also in accord within this page is "Tantra has no single coherent doctrine." my guru and i have main tendencies and interests in common, but some very important differences of philosophic attitude and cosmological supposition. these aren't ultimately required to reconcile and the divergence can at times be very exciting or alarming. commentary following, that "These practices, in their classical form, are more oriented to the married householder than the monastic or solitary renunciant. They exhibited what may be called a world-embracing rather than a world-denying character." seems exactly a fit description for our eclectic and mutually devoted action, and while i can appreciate that "Tantra, especially in its nondual forms, rejected the renunciant values of PataΓ±jalian yoga, offering instead a vision of the whole of reality as the self-expression of a single, free and blissful Divine Consciousness under whatever name, whether Εiva or Buddha-nature." our dual-polar Neo-shaktiist modality neither accepts a cosmic 'One' nor accepts strict renunciation. I forget which bhakti writer/instructor/master (Vivekananda?) wrote that we do NOT want to 'become sugar', but to go on and on and on tasting.
it's tempting to evaluate this as an 'Abysmal' pre-unitive state of yogic achievement, but like trying to put cultures or religions on spectrums of 'advancement', i think too much error is introduced when so doing.that's enough for now. more conversation/comparison commentary welcomed!!!
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Hey nigris - First of all, I'm highly appreciative of your taking the time to write all of these explanations of your practice and mode of thinking. I'm not well enough versed in the symbolism to engage in a hardcore Thelemic conversation with you, but let me offer a couple of thoughts from a syncretic point of view.
I was talking about Kali residing above the abyss based on comments posted in various threads here equating her with Binah, which is why I thought she'd want to get you above the Abyss to be with her, haha.
In studying the phenomenon of the KCHGA and living out various phases leading up to it, I'm thinking that a lot of what you're talking about is in essence the same as the so-called right hand path and that the difference is merely a matter of terminology - it seems that regardless of the content that you and Kali weave in Yetzirah and Assiah, whether you see it as selecting one path over another, celebrating earthly life, whatever, it's still going to lead to the experience labelled by some as the KCHGA.
The reason for this is that the phenomenon itself is beyond content. The purest description I've found of it, almost stripped of religious symbolism entirely, has been in Theravada Buddhist insight meditation. You note a certain amount of sensations, whether it be sitting, doing the dishes, or a totally unhinged orgiastic sexcapade between five invoked godforms, and, bam, the nature of reality is revealed to you in a singularity. It's almost like a video game - the sensations speed up or slow down in a cyclical way (kundalini activity alternated with dark nights of the soul), and on top of this process your awareness of other planes, the details of your life and thought, magick, mysticism, whatever, grows and gets directed into your path.
So what I'm trying to formulate is that the KCHGA at its core is a dispassionate, matter of fact event much like the flowing of a river or swinging of a pendulum. We can weave whatever meaning we want into it (even saying we want to explicitly avoid it), but it's an inevitability just through the nature of who we are as a species. Since it's beyond content (happening in Briah), any content whatsoever (Yetzirah) will play a part in leading to it.
Hope at least a little of that made sense. It's difficult to express this stuff rationally, and I'm hoping someone more experienced than me will chime in and correct whatever misconceptions are in my thinking.
Check out the work of Alan Chapman, Duncan Barford, and Daniel Ingram for more on this.
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Checked out catherine's site - very cool resource, thanks for sharing!
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Frater aSP,
@frater aSP said
"...I'm highly appreciative of your taking the time to write all of these explanations of your practice and mode of thinking. ..."
likewise, i greatly appreciate your time and feedback here."I was talking about Kali residing above the abyss based on comments posted in various threads here equating her with Binah, which is why I thought she'd want to get you above the Abyss to be with her, haha."
OH! ok, that makes some sense. I've heard Her associated with Geburah more often (i think it was the Martial aspect, Goddess of the Sword, Goddess of Destruction, Disease, other things), though as a Mother Goddess (a relation i barely engage personally since we are mates, i let it inform my relation to my terrestrial mother surely), i can see Binah as a very reasonable selection, yes."In studying the phenomenon of the KCHGA and living out various phases leading up to it, I'm thinking that a lot of what you're talking about is in essence the same as the so-called right hand path and that the difference is merely a matter of terminology - it seems that regardless of the content that you and Kali weave in Yetzirah and Assiah, whether you see it as selecting one path over another, celebrating earthly life, whatever, it's still going to lead to the experience labelled by some as the KCHGA."
fascinating. where do you conceive that this (K&CofHGA) 'takes place'? as a literalist and Neo-tantric i'd kinda interpreted that knowledge had varying forms including congress, sexual tryst, or heiros gamos, and that conversation might be direct and audible. I'd love to learn how you understand this differently."The reason for this is that the phenomenon itself is beyond content. The purest description I've found of it, almost stripped of religious symbolism entirely, has been in Theravada Buddhist insight meditation. You note a certain amount of sensations, whether it be sitting, doing the dishes, or a totally unhinged orgiastic sexcapade between five invoked godforms, and, bam, the nature of reality is revealed to you in a singularity."
I think that i get what you mean, yes. you're talking about a transformative and demarcating, unique or peak moment. I've had those before, but am completely unsure if any of them apply. a few of them had definitely included Kali. whether one accepts those mediated by allies (e.g. psychotropics would also complicate matters of evaluation -- crying in bliss for hours singing and chanting with Kali for example). what should be the aftermath of such an event, do you think?"It's almost like a video game - the sensations speed up or slow down in a cyclical way (kundalini activity alternated with dark nights of the soul), and on top of this process your awareness of other planes, the details of your life and thought, magick, mysticism, whatever, grows and gets directed into your path."
how totally cool is that. it sounds very unifying and orienting. nice."So what I'm trying to formulate is that the KCHGA at its core is a dispassionate, matter of fact event much like the flowing of a river or swinging of a pendulum."
very interesting!"We can weave whatever meaning we want into it (even saying we want to explicitly avoid it), but it's an inevitability just through the nature of who we are as a species. Since it's beyond content (happening in Briah), any content whatsoever (Yetzirah) will play a part in leading to it."
very keen! I may be able to follow you and have some questions. does 'beyond content' mean it compares with meditative stasis or a kind of 'conscousness lock' where no memory takes place due to some ecstatic presence in the moment? is it your conception that this lasts from thence forward, or is it a peak and then drop-back?and of course: have you ever experienced this? how many have you spoken with who attested to having had the experience and knowing it related to what you associate it to?
"Hope at least a little of that made sense. It's difficult to express this stuff rationally, and I'm hoping someone more experienced than me will chime in and correct whatever misconceptions are in my thinking...."
thank you very much for your pointers. I'll look into your referrals (Chapman, Barford, and Ingram; none i'd heard of!) and appreciate anything more you'd care to say about your understanding.kind regards and E666,
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@nigris said
"having been so long out of touch with so much of this (reformatted by my guru) i may be completely misremembering the whole, however, so cut me some slack."
Considering your goals and aspirations, it is only natural that you lack a certain amount of understanding.
@nigris said
"there is THAT! Kali is wholly and utterly Black, a Maw of Ma, Kaos and Maelstrom."
There is your that
Here is my that
@nigris said
"I found Nothing to get over. I had to reconstruct the whole of the mapping to reflect it properly. here, let me show you what i mean:
www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/gra ... eektys.gif"
An intriguing image.
If you found Nothing, I think you might be over!@nigris said
"I gave Everything up upon dedication to Kali. having nothing to lose or loose, and nothing to gain, you'd have to explain the value of continued movement."
From my perspective, if what yo say is true, there would be no choice-
Movement the natural result of having no entanglement ( ie , nothing to lose or loose )@nigris said
"this apparent tension (some find) between weaving of the poles and never seeking to weave myself or my God together in some fashion is in part why i identify it with Vamamarg and, moreso, with being a Black Brother."
This helps put things in perspective.
I will do some understanding for the both of usI have been receiving a lot of inspiration from the Krishna movement.
Though my preference is for my Supreme Personality of the UnManifest ! -
@Uni_Verse said
"...if what yo say is true, there would be no choice -
Movement the natural result of having no entanglement ( ie , nothing to lose or loose )"
hm, unsure what to make of that."This helps put things in perspective. I will do some understanding for the both of us
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cool!"I have been receiving a lot of inspiration from the Krishna movement.
Though my preference is for my Supreme Personality of the UnManifest !"
excellent. inspiration is a wonderful result. -
@nigris said
"fascinating. where do you conceive that this (K&CofHGA) 'takes place'? as a literalist and Neo-tantric i'd kinda interpreted that knowledge had varying forms including congress, sexual tryst, or heiros gamos, and that conversation might be direct and audible. I'd love to learn how you understand this differently."
Oh unquestionably, and I've experienced much of the above as well. What I meant is that all of this is weaving with and tying into a very simple process of becoming conscious of the speed of individual moments - the raw material that comprises our consciousness. When it moves quickly (and we're watching it) - that's what brings K openings and peak experiences - as well as our ability to create our lives by directing the formulation of the raw material into astral thoughtforms, external events, etc. When it moves slowly, that's when we're in the Dark Night of the Soul - we can't perceive the individual moments and have a tendency to be sucked in unconsciously to our karma.
To me the outward manifestations of the HGA - the voices, the sexual congress, the synchronicities, visions, internal alchemy etc. are this abstract, universal process's way of communicating with our egos/bodies. When the event itself happens, the actual content leading up to it, especially for someone on the tantric or hermetic path would assuredly take on those forms.
As far as I know I haven't achieved the KCHGA, but can abstract a (rough, intellectualized) idea of its nature having experienced the ups and downs of the insight cycle (you might turn to someone who has achieved it to talk about the aftermath, etc. Check out "The Magical Record of Brother Proserpinus" in Black Pearl Vol. 1 No. 6). It's something that even a Zen Buddhist would experience, although they would explain it in different terms (perhaps kensho?) That's why I have a feeling that your working with Satan, etc. isn't becoming a Black Brother, but rather the guise that your HGA has taken on. The only difference is the symbolism. (Obviously this is presumptuous and I don't want to speak for you...)
I think the main thing that might be helpful to take away from this is a separation of one's experience of reality into various components. Magick, visions, tantra - the Yetzirac content of our lives - would be akin to Buddhist training in concentration (the jhanas, etc. - a rough, probably wrongheaded and culturally insensitive comparison I know...), while the engine that's powering it, breaking us open bit by bit, is insight practice - the HGA - an incomprehensible, contentless entity guiding and manifesting those comprehensible forms.
It's always been helpful for me in that when I get stalled somehow in my life either externally or spiritually (not that there is much of a boundary any more), I can enter into insight meditation - the most basic practice imagineable - and watch how fast individual sensations are progressing. More often than not I'll find myself buried in content, with the moments progressing at a snail's pace - the Dark Night of the Soul phase. Many times all it will take is sitting through a few more cycles to get back on track. (If you look at Daniel Ingram's site at interactivebuddha.com, he actually has a chart with approximations of the speed of sensations at each step of the cycle). As the outward notion of the HGA has developed in my life, insight practice has taken on more and more of a bhaktic nature. The sensations are the internal lover and the process's relationship to kundalini and sex (even sex magick) becomes clearer and clearer cue porn music.
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@frater aSP said
"...becoming conscious of the speed of individual moments - the raw material that comprises our consciousness. When it moves quickly (and we're watching it) - that's what brings K openings and peak experiences - as well as our ability to create our lives by directing the formulation of the raw material into astral thoughtforms, external events, etc. When it moves slowly, that's when we're in the Dark Night of the Soul - we can't perceive the individual moments and have a tendency to be sucked in unconsciously to our karma."
wonderful discernment."To me the outward manifestations of the HGA - the voices, the sexual congress, the synchronicities, visions, internal alchemy etc. are this abstract, universal process's way of communicating with our egos/bodies. When the event itself happens, the actual content leading up to it, especially for someone on the tantric or hermetic path would assuredly take on those forms."
I enjoy conversation about about it from those who have interest. decisions about what is and is not likely, possible, or included, and how it may manifest, and what authorities have indicated what routes to the stipulated goals are compelling."As far as I know I haven't achieved the KCHGA, ...."
I'd love to hear from you how you came to such an evaluation. are you aware of signals, signs, indicators, for which you can watch and you haven't seen them? I'm convinced that this kind of thing is imperative to 'condition achievements', and, while it is obvious that people can be mistaken about their own process, we definitely can become aware of how others perceive us and get a sort of 'peer review' from those without apparent bias, if we have dedication to the task."...you might turn to someone who has achieved it to talk about the aftermath, etc. Check out "The Magical Record of Brother Proserpinus" in Black Pearl Vol. 1 No. 6)."
how did you confirm that Brother Proserpinus has achieved it? that evaluation method is something i want to follow up on, in part because i'm always attempting to refine it in relation to esoteric states, and since i am not a continuing participant in a matricular order where it becomes the business of those involved to rate or test or assess others and their spiritual condition, i want to compare notes with those whose interests overlap."It's something that even a Zen Buddhist would experience, although they would explain it in different terms (perhaps kensho?) "
some popular notions:
-- "Kensho is Japanese for "seeing nature." It means seeing one's true nature; perceiving the self. The kensho experience is a pure realization of shunyata without duality of "seer" and "the thing seen." Kensho is often spoken of as an initial or opening experience of enlightenment that requires further realization and deepening."
-- buddhism.about.com/od/buddhismglossaryk/g/kenshodef.htm // "KenshΕ (θ¦ζ§), literally "seeing the nature" in Japanese, is the experience of enlightenment described in the context of Zen Buddhism. The term is often used to denote an initial awakening experience, seeing one's True-Nature or Buddha-Nature, that can be enlarged and clarified through further practice in daily life." -- answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061104091006AASU5CdI'm unsure how much can be equated across mystical systems. knowing that someone has familiarity with more than a single system by experience can be helpful. have you studied with Zen monks or engaged in zazen or been part of a sangha? I've sat with temple masters and interviewed monks as part of my exploration of Zen and Buddhism (wonderful esotericism!). occasionally i learn of intersections direct between Tibetan Buddhism and Western ceremonial magic (within and outside of orders of my acquaintance). I'm watching for signs of equivalency, lists of symptoms of success of some time, etc., and hoping you might have more insight into it.
"That's why I have a feeling that your working with Satan, etc. isn't becoming a Black Brother,"
quite so. I became a Black Brother long before i met Satan, before i made my pact, etc. I don't associate the two, really. it was my evaluation of my ritual work, especially with the Tree of Life, how i was proceeding and how it was evaluated by my associates and teachers, etc."but rather the guise that your HGA has taken on."
your ability to comprehend divergent sets of data is very good, and better than quite a few i have known. I completely agree with this, and this is in part why i have struck out in different modes and interests from some of those with whom i've spent my time. I'm somewhat reactionary, especially to dualistic condemnation and suppositions in the negative about certain processes, beings, etc., and so encountering these i'm likely (compare Fr. Achad, i suppose, inverting the Tree of Life, much as i later did in a different way) to attempt to come up with an explanation for why someone might be achieving success in a way that looks like failure to those who have insufficient experience or who have a limited litmus so as not to be able to assimilate LHP modalities for achievement. this doesn't say anything about positive indicators, of course, but i'm merely broadening the conversation a bit with regard to systems of advance and the protocols for evaluation."The only difference is the symbolism. (Obviously this is presumptuous and I don't want to speak for you...)"
of course, and while some portion of that is at a remove from my trajectory (because of the huge differential of Kali and Satan in my life and their roles and level of intimacy with me), your contention about symbolism differentiation is SPOT ON. I have studied this phenomenon a bit on account of it - what i understand are LHP modalities interpreted by the consolidating RHP as 'Wrong'/'Bad'/'Corrupt'/etc. - and notice a strong set of common features."I think the main thing that might be helpful to take away from this is a separation of one's experience of reality into various components. Magick, visions, tantra - the Yetzirac content of our lives - would be akin to Buddhist training in concentration (the jhanas, etc. - a rough, probably wrongheaded and culturally insensitive comparison I know...),"
well that's what is so cool about studying these different systems and watching as some overlapping participation gleans a diverse perspective on them both (one interpreted from one direction and another from along an opposite view; the same happens within religion as compared to mysticism, with saints or prophets interpreted as gurus, messiahs interpreted as avatarae, etc., etc.)."while the engine that's powering it, breaking us open bit by bit, is insight practice - the HGA - an incomprehensible, contentless entity guiding and manifesting those comprehensible forms."
I'm curious why you call it these things. Crowley at points associated it with the augoeides, a tutelary spirit, and i'm unsure where it acquired all these superordinary qualities. Socrates is known to have had one, for example, though i wonder if these more restrictive understandings would in any way qualify for what you're talking about. akin to comparing a god like Zeus or Thor or Diana with some transcendental pantheistic 'God' of universalists like Roman Catholics, Hermetics, Gnostic Christians, all manner of folks out to 'Buddha Mind' universalism when it may be found in Asia and beyond.here's another reference of overlap you may find helpful in seeing what i mean:
[www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/gnostik/liber-augoeides-part-1.tx](http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/gnostik/liber-augoeides-part-1.txt)and
[www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/gnostik/liber-augoeides-part-2.tx](http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/gnostik/liber-augoeides-part-2.txt)these were written more than a decade ago, and i'd love to hear your reflection on the contents of either.
"It's always been helpful for me in that when I get stalled somehow in my life either externally or spiritually (not that there is much of a boundary any more), I can enter into insight meditation - the most basic practice imagineable - "
if it is so basic, how is it done? what do you do when you practice it?"and watch how fast individual sensations are progressing. More often than not I'll find myself buried in content, with the moments progressing at a snail's pace - the Dark Night of the Soul phase. ..."
the first time i ran into this phrase it was in relation to St. John of the Cross and his mystical writing, with the experience of the absence of the highly desired God. I'm guessing that you're talking about being 'off-point' or 'disoriented' of attention, not tracking, and easily distracted."...Daniel Ingram's site at interactivebuddha.com.... has a chart with approximations of the speed of sensations at each step of the cycle)."
there's a LOT there. I'll visit occasionally. do you have a URL for that chart? with a bit of poking around i did not see it."As the outward notion of the HGA has developed in my life, insight practice has taken on more and more of a bhaktic nature."
intriguing! deity gazing seems conducive to it. I gather that some use this method in part to improve their self-concept. scientific examination of meditation seems to indicate that object of foci influences self-concept, so this fits! I don't know how this works for my great attraction for Wrathful Kali images and statuary for my devotional practices. I'm sure that description about their being 'advanced' might have influenced me, but my experience simply shifted also, ecstatic bliss at some of the more gruesome and wrathful foci. was this an antinomian outcome? did my agnostic upbringing predispose me to consider the worship of wrathful gods to be most transgressive?? I can completely understand if so. this kind of reflective analysis is interesting but not ultimately the decisive factor in steering my path (an intuitive one now heavily influenced by my guru)."The sensations are the internal lover and the process's relationship to kundalini and sex (even sex magick) becomes clearer and clearer...."
the former i can understand, but the latter (in relation to kundalini) aren't immediately apparent to me or easily understood simply by your mention here. I also don't understand the (presumably humorous) mention of porn music. there's an objectification dynamic which i think you were talking about in relation to projection and the Siren which surrounds the phenomenon of pornography. it's something that i have loved discussing with feminists and sensitive women (even Pro Doms) who could observe the affects it had on those who frequented or were focussed on it. my guru's also observed some of the fallout from women whose partners have displaced their intimacy for this extended fantasizing, often on unrealistic targets of ideals.while i can understand the attraction, i also want to connect what i call idolatry to it in a sense of exteriorizing and idealizing the god, and noticing how this affects one's relationship with one's devotional focus. I think there's a kind of 'porn of the bhakta' that can affect one's worship in questionable manners, and i think i've identified some of these characteristics (exaggerating one's god's role in the universe, projecting that god to where it is not, etc.). this is something that i speak with Satanists and Demonolators about repeatedly, and since they don't tend to have extensive experience outside of Christian culture it isn't always an easy task to get these points across.
I know we're treading into myriad side-issues in this thread, and i'm willing to take whatever seems appropos for Thelema elsewhere for a more thorough examination (link it from here!), but i want to point you to another aspect of my Satanism which you may find intriguing or that it runs in parallel to one of my favourite texts by Crowley (Liber Astarte vel Berylli
Beginning Idolatry in Satanism
youtu.be/dMJBVHXpaG0which is really a kind of 'It is OK to worship anything you like.' kind of advocation. thanks for all your ideas and expression here. very inspiring!
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"As far as I know I haven't achieved the KCHGA, ...."
"I'd love to hear from you how you came to such an evaluation. are you aware of signals, signs, indicators, for which you can watch and you haven't seen them? I'm convinced that this kind of thing is imperative to 'condition achievements', and, while it is obvious that people can be mistaken about their own process, we definitely can become aware of how others perceive us and get a sort of 'peer review' from those without apparent bias, if we have dedication to the task."
Good question, and this self perception is definitely conditioned by reading other people's accounts, hints from this forum, etc. Currently I have no personal ties to a teacher or anyone I would trust to make this valuation. I've had experiences involving communication, visions, sex, etc. that jibe with certain accounts reported by people here (and much of the time Jim Eshelman will helpfully correlate where on the tree of life such experiences might fall). One thing that's difficult, especially from the viewpoint of not being initiated into a community, is sorting out personal hallucinations from "the Voice." One mode of communication will for a time provide answers and indications of the future well above the threshold of chance, then will dry up; my understanding will change; a new model will gradually appear. It's definitely more difficult from a self-initiation perspective, although I can sense things are progressing somehow, just from new life conditions, magickal development, uncovering a more specific sense of purpose, etc. It's my understanding (mostly from posts here) that the KCHGA is an event that forever alters one's perspective of who one is, and, although I feel hints of what is True (none of these words, haha) in meditation & pranayama & ceremony, it doesn't feel quite as if that is the perspective from which I live out my life.
"how did you confirm that Brother Proserpinus has achieved it?"
Good question again - I just took it at face value as an account from an organization that has grafted this label onto a particular experience and has, within its own framework, criteria for evaluating whether its own members have achieved it. Much like Crowley's account. ("If we define the KCHGA as this particular thing, with these particular factors, then, using those premises, X has or has not achieved it.") My method for extrapolating it to my own experience has been to tie it to signposts from other traditions - particularly the path model of Theravada Buddhism, along with my relationship to the inner teacher.
"have you studied with Zen monks or engaged in zazen or been part of a sangha? I'm watching for signs of equivalency, lists of symptoms of success of some time, etc., and hoping you might have more insight into it.
"I wish I did. All of my practice has been hermetically sealed, haha, although, like anyone, the deeper one gets into the path, the more one comes in contact with people working at a particular psychic level who "know what you're talking about," sometimes in their own terms. I'm guessing most have experienced this before - it's like a 6th sense, as if you recognize something in the other person and they recognize something in you. There have been people where, within seconds of meeting them, something inside just knows, and more often than not we're talking about mysticism or magick within 5 minutes. It's like gaydar for occultists, haha.
I'm definitely getting the premonition that I could be attaching to a more formal community in perhaps the near future as I feel life pulling me towards relocation, but am being patient, as I feel my HGA is giving me plenty to chew on currently.
"I'm somewhat reactionary, especially to dualistic condemnation and suppositions in the negative about certain processes, beings, etc., and so encountering these i'm likely (compare Fr. Achad, i suppose, inverting the Tree of Life, much as i later did in a different way) to attempt to come up with an explanation for why someone might be achieving success in a way that looks like failure to those who have insufficient experience or who have a limited litmus so as not to be able to assimilate LHP modalities for achievement. this doesn't say anything about positive indicators, of course, but i'm merely broadening the conversation a bit with regard to systems of advance and the protocols for evaluation."
Very interesting, and the way that you've worked with traditional symbolism is quite intriguing, although I can see how people could find it threatening or confusing.
"while the engine that's powering it, breaking us open bit by bit, is insight practice - the HGA - an incomprehensible, contentless entity guiding and manifesting those comprehensible forms."
"I'm curious why you call it these things. Crowley at points associated it with the augoeides, a tutelary spirit, and i'm unsure where it acquired all these superordinary qualities. Socrates is known to have had one, for example, though i wonder if these more restrictive understandings would in any way qualify for what you're talking about."
These descriptions are definitely how it manifests in life, which I can verify from personal experience. But the face continually shifts, and its totality is definitely beyond any particular manifestation. The particular above conception is based on correlating accounts of the KCHGA with Buddhist insight meditation, which, as I said is the engine that has personally gotten me the furthest on the path, including introducing me to the HGA's outward forms.
"these were written more than a decade ago, and i'd love to hear your reflection on the contents of either."
Very cool, and I've had experiences quite close to this, although, not being part of the OTO, my meeting of the entity came about directly, visually, (later audibly), and it's only lately that I've been opening up to the hermetic/tarot symbolism. There have definitely been pitfalls to this approach, as far as criteria for what constitutes actually teaching and what constitutes delusion. More recently I've been opening up to lucid dreaming and have been instructed by various guises of the entity on this plane, as well as being instructed about the astral sheaths of the body during ritual practice.
"if it is so basic, how is it done? what do you do when you practice it?"
So simple. You start out with verbal mental notes. ('feeling the texture of the keyboard.' 'thinking.' 'seeing.' 'hearing.' 'remembering.') Be patient, and after a while, you become conscious of the sensations themselves without needing to mentally keep track. That's when you become perceptive of these grains of reality speeding up or slowing down in cycles, eventually seeing the feeling of self flickering in and out of existence - no more real than any other sense impression. I've found that doing this during magick practice/scrying greatly enhances their vividness and effect.
"the first time i ran into this phrase it was in relation to St. John of the Cross and his mystical writing, with the experience of the absence of the highly desired God. I'm guessing that you're talking about being 'off-point' or 'disoriented' of attention, not tracking, and easily distracted."
Yep. The thing that insight practice helped with most was assigning this as a technical term, without the emotional connotations. Even thought the emotional content of feeling cut off is still there, it feels easier to deal with when it's seen as insight cycles slowing down, and more importantly, the basic practice of noting has the effect of drawing a person out of it into the next stage.
"do you have a URL for that chart? with a bit of poking around i did not see it."
Check out the bottom of:
*(http://integrateddaniel.info/book/)
It's a two-page pdf, listing the points in the cycle, the vibratory speed, and even Tree of Life correlations. There is also a file with basic insight meditation instructions. His whole book there on the site is probably the best exploration of meditation and spirituality I've ever seen.
"As the outward notion of the HGA has developed in my life, insight practice has taken on more and more of a bhaktic nature."
"intriguing! deity gazing seems conducive to it."
I could definitely see deity gazing and trataka as great practices for integrating concentration, insight, and bhakti.
"The sensations are the internal lover and the process's relationship to kundalini and sex (even sex magick) becomes clearer and clearer...."
"the former i can understand, but the latter (in relation to kundalini) aren't immediately apparent to me or easily understood simply by your mention here. I also don't understand the (presumably humorous) mention of porn music."
I agree, and it was kind of odd for me to just drop those references without explaining them. Basically, for me a large part of dealing with the HGA lately has involved sex - the polarities of internal gender, the sensing of chakras during sex, polarities of giving/receiving, etc. It all ties in to the insight cycles and kundalini - the entity teaching you this stuff also happens to comprise all those sensations you note during meditation. The notion of who you are and what you are seeking in life starts to change drastically with this degree of spiritual intimacy. I wasn't trying to reference porn at all actually - to the contrary, a large portion of this training has involved cleansing the psyche of old and damaging notions of sex (including a 5-month period of celibacy) and also learning to be as present and conscious as possible during it, even cognizant of what a particular sex act's purpose might be at the moment of orgasm (which is why i referenced sex magick).
"while i can understand the attraction, i also want to connect what i call idolatry to it in a sense of exteriorizing and idealizing the god, and noticing how this affects one's relationship with one's devotional focus. I think there's a kind of 'porn of the bhakta' that can affect one's worship in questionable manners"
Agreed. So many traps, although I definitely find myself agreeing with the idea of the object of worship not being important (other than personally) so much as the worship itself.
"thanks for all your ideas and expression here. very inspiring!"
Thanks! and thank you for the responses and conversation - inspiring as well. Although the guy in that video creeps me out, haha.