"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"
-
@Alrah said
"
@seekinghga said
"
@Alrah said
"93,Some people question the way I relate to the change to Liber AL."
What change?"
... Have you been on a retreat in the mountains or something?
... If so - post photographs and I will explain.
If not - read the thread and the Lashtal threads, and then the blogs and please check out the petition and sign!
P.s. - if I were to explain right now... I would only bias you.
"My cynicism opts to decline, thanks.
"Beware therefore! Love all, lest perchance is a King concealed! Say you so? Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him."
-
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae111/alrah/Peculiar_zps45db6063.jpg
I've chosen to select just 5 from many differences between Liber xxxI and Liber CCXX and only from the first few pages of each work. I show the 5 examples featured in the poster in brackets of the verses (below) as they appear in the 1976 Weiser version of the little red Book of the Law.
- AL I,15: Now (ye) shall know that the chosen priest & apostle of infinite space is the prince-priest the Beast; and in his woman called the Scarlet Woman is all power given. They shall gather my children into their fold: they shall bring the glory of the stars into the hearts of men.
3 & 2) AL I, 22: Now, therefore, I am known to ye by my name Nuit, and to him by a secret name which I will give (him) when at last he knoweth me. Since I am Infinite Space, and the Infinite Stars (thereof), do ye also thus. Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.
-
AL I, 26. Then saith the prophet and slave of the beauteous one: Who am I, and what shall be the sign? So she answered (him), bending down, a lambent flame of blue, all-touching, all penetrant, her lovely hands upon the black earth, & her lithe body arched for love, and her soft feet not hurting the little flowers: Thou knowest! And the sign shall be my ecstasy, the consciousness of the continuity of existence, the omnipresence of my body.
-
- There are four gates to one palace; the floor of that palace (is of) silver and gold; lapis lazuli & jasper are there; and all rare scents; jasmine & rose, and the emblems of death. Let him enter in turn or at once the four gates; let him stand on the floor of the palace. Will he not sink? Amn. Ho! warrior, if thy servant sink? But there are means and means. Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me.
Note - the punctuation is also different in Liber xxxi and ccxx, and the punctuation in ccxx at times misleads...
This is not to show that CCXX is 'wrong', but that there are important differences which the prophet deliberately kept in the work and didn't regard their inclusion in CCXX as an error or in need of correction.
The mathematics of CCXX & Liber XXXI are different, and each reveal different hidden content. Thus - the published version of CCXX should remain EXACTLY as the scribe wished it in the last known published and authorized version of CCXX by 'H'im.
-
Ps... if you total the letters of Page 1 + page 3 of Liber XXXI then they come to 718 letters.
- 361 + 3) 357 = 718.
I also note that both page 1 and page 5 have 361 letters each.
-
-
Except that your two examples are already capitals whereas the 'f' in fill clearly is not.....?
-
93,
I think it is a k, it looks like a k and is different from the other two examples, I just don't know if it's Crowleys K....
Everyone has seen the arguments presented and I'm fairly certain most of the people here agree that it is is 'fill' and not kill. I have two copies of liber L and quite frankly, even if it sounds a bit rude, I couldn't care less what anyone else has. Then again I do side that noone has the authority to change a class A document, but surely any real seeker would check the manuscript and see that big old 'fill'.....perhaps another organisation will publish a clean copy and advertise it as an 'unchanged' version. I believe at the end of the day Mr Breeze has made his decision and believes he is correct in doing so and so nothing anyone says or does is going to change his decision, especially since he believes it is the will of the universe for this to happen. Hell if I believed that, I wouldn't go against it either!
93, 93/93.
-
@Archaeus said
"Except that your two examples are already capitals whereas the 'f' in fill clearly is not.....?"
In which case it would indicate the f should be F.
Aum! let it Fill me.
But as it was neither changed to a k not capitalized to an F by Crowley it makes no difference.
Some other points of note are:
- Usually Crowley rings spelling changes in his proofing rather than striking them through. I've only found one other occurrence of him striking through a spelling change and that is also in the Windram copy- into > unto
- If it was a k then why is it a uppercase K rather than a lowercase 'k'?
- Crowley (or someone) lifts the pressure between the two characters rather than follows through as he would have done with one character. He does not lift in other instances of the letter K.
- If it was a K then it omits the proofing mark of |. It should be |k. Also unusual for Crowley but also seen in the Windram copy (into > unto again). This again raises the question of whether Crowley really proofed that section or whether Windram or another may have done it.
So it is more likely to be |c than K. If HB really believes it is a K then he should be changing it to a capital and not a lowercase k. Why doesn't he?
There is an assumption being made that the K is really a K, but it's just an assumption. It could as easily be a |c.
-
-
@mark0987 said
"93,
I think it is a k, it looks like a k and is different from the other two examples, I just don't know if it's Crowleys K....
Everyone has seen the arguments presented and I'm fairly certain most of the people here agree that it is is 'fill' and not kill. I have two copies of liber L and quite frankly, even if it sounds a bit rude, I couldn't care less what anyone else has. Then again I do side that noone has the authority to change a class A document, but surely any real seeker would check the manuscript and see that big old 'fill'.....perhaps another organisation will publish a clean copy and advertise it as an 'unchanged' version. I believe at the end of the day Mr Breeze has made his decision and believes he is correct in doing so and so nothing anyone says or does is going to change his decision, especially since he believes it is the will of the universe for this to happen. Hell if I believed that, I wouldn't go against it either!
93, 93/93."
You're right, it doesn't look like the other two editing marks, which is not to say that's not what it is; either way 'd say this is a pretty slim piece of evidence, and unnecessary in the face of the weight of evidence that Breeze's 'correction' is merely his own folly.
-
@Archaeus said
"
@mark0987 said
"93,I think it is a k, it looks like a k and is different from the other two examples, I just don't know if it's Crowleys K....
Everyone has seen the arguments presented and I'm fairly certain most of the people here agree that it is is 'fill' and not kill. I have two copies of liber L and quite frankly, even if it sounds a bit rude, I couldn't care less what anyone else has. Then again I do side that noone has the authority to change a class A document, but surely any real seeker would check the manuscript and see that big old 'fill'.....perhaps another organisation will publish a clean copy and advertise it as an 'unchanged' version. I believe at the end of the day Mr Breeze has made his decision and believes he is correct in doing so and so nothing anyone says or does is going to change his decision, especially since he believes it is the will of the universe for this to happen. Hell if I believed that, I wouldn't go against it either!
93, 93/93."
You're right, it doesn't look like the other two editing marks, which is not to say that's not what it is; either way 'd say this is a pretty slim piece of evidence, and unnecessary in the face of the weight of evidence that Breeze's 'correction' is merely his own folly."
I think Crowley certain wrote in Windram's copy but I don't believe he proofed it, because he uses different proofing conventions in his other works. I think he's made some notes on Qabalah for Windram in the margins, but the capitals by the trigrams don't look like they are written in Crowley's distinctive hand either. They are corse and inelegant. I have zero confidence that the proof-reader and Crowley are the same writer for these reasons.
-
I think that this whole thing merely puts us into the mouth of Choronzon, divides Thelemites and drags the whole movement into the sort of sectarian stupidity that devises like Class A designations were supposed to avoid, for which reason Breeze has shown himself to be unpardonably stupid.
In 500 years Thelema will be just another divided cultus, much like Christianity and Islam are today. Truly the limits of human stupidity are boundless.
-
@Archaeus said
"I think that this whole thing merely puts us into the mouth of Choronzon, divides Thelemites and drags the whole movement into the sort of sectarian stupidity that devises like Class A designations were supposed to avoid, for which reason Breeze has shown himself to be unpardonably stupid.
In 500 years Thelema will be just another divided cultus, much like Christianity and Islam are today. Truly the limits of human stupidity are boundless."
Unquestionably stupid. Breeze, and Gunther, and Wasserman, and Lon Milo Duquette, and David Shoemaker, and all the ones who immediately accepted whatever Breeze said without the slightest question. The Churchill gang... oooooh yes.
-
@Archaeus said
"I think that this whole thing merely puts us into the mouth of Choronzon"
An inevitable result of people who were expelled from, or never members of an Order claiming to be it's Heads? The cracks are starting to show.
-
@nashimiron said
"
@Archaeus said
"I think that this whole thing merely puts us into the mouth of Choronzon"An inevitable result of people who were expelled from, or never members of an Order claiming to be it's Heads? The cracks are starting to show."
Touche'.
-
@Alrah said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"Separately, I add only the interesting facts that about a month before Germer's death, he affirmed in writing that Motta was no more than a 1=10, whereas a decade earlier he had affirmed (and discussed in lengthy correspondence) that Phyllis was at least a 5=6. If (note the 'if') these were the only two choices on who was "the member of the A.'.A.'. highest in rank (and then in seniority)" at Germer's death, it seems an easy choice."indeed it stands, Jim! ..."
it does not. the problem of evaluation within an esoteric and non-centralized manifestation beyond the Third Order (into manifestation) are sufficient so as to avoid the whole enterprise, and this is just one of the reasons that severe restraints are set on A.'.A.'. social descripts.granted the premise that this retains a streaming throughput from the Third Order of the Great White Brotherhood, and that this holds meaning on par with Eckhartshausen or other sources, then there is every reason to think that personal evaluations of these kinds are counter-indicators of reliable connection thereto. thus if someone goes on record in some public way evaluating one "lineage" over against another or one person who is "part of" some "lineage" or "order" and these are supposed to be related to the Third Order, we may conclude deductively that they have disqualified themselves from authority.
"...the only head of any A.'.A.'. lineage is Crowley himself."
there is no 'head' of a sphere."...the inspiration for the A.'.A.'. came from the work of Florence Farr when she sought to establish 'the Sphere', and ...the A.'.A.'. is a direct successor of the Sphere conceptually, and I channel that from my own lineage."
if it is and was based on the Third Order, then its manifestation is older, by form, or work, than anything Miss Farr may have conceived."...we should not judge the A.'.A.'. as if it were a mundane organisation shaped with a pyramid power structure...."
of any kind. the fresh reed of the A.'.A.'. is constantly rigidifying and becoming Secondary."...There can be no 'true lineage' - as members of the Sphere will arise across the formal boundaries of lineage just as they do across the artificial boundaries of countries. Or they may arise from no known lineage as they will. The current will die, and be reborn, and live again, and die again."
the term 'lineage' gives the impression of a single trajectory or origin of authority to esoteric content. this is distinctly at odds with how such content is mediated from their source-points as Mysteries and through the experience, psychology, and expressive output of incidental exponents (in specific interactions). these are constellated in an 'atmosphere' (similar to your assertion about the sphere) of indeterminate cause. were that cause determined, it would solidify into a Second Order and become known and defined (as might have Crowley's construct if it effectively 'died' at some point after his initiation of it with George Cecil Jones).{from a letter}
"...the only test of whether an A.'.A.'. is proper or not is whether they teach the material that A.C. placed in the public domain from the very beginning,"
this sets the Second(ary) Order in place, guaranteeing ossification. like the cosmos and cosmology where people invert the notion of manifestation to derive the material world from some unseen and transcendental dimension, so people invert the authority of the Third Order and place emphasis on the terrestrial streams of carriage rather than to pay attention to the resonance these have with that transcendental originating source and their Mysteries." and whether they produce Adepts and foster the cultivation of new Magisters (i.e. the accomplishment of the two main tasks of every magician)."
so easily misunderstood and badly assessed that it has become a cult of its own, disconnected from the real excepting as it vies for supremacy of reputation."...The members of the Sphere were purely interested in individual spiritual progression and work. The true A.'.A.'. are the successors of The Sphere and it may not be ruled by the mundane concerns of the pyramid organisations..."
there are no "successors" to the Third Order. this is one of the fallacies of Second Order fallouts. they self-disqualify each time they begin to do Second Order work, thereby effectively requesting that they be looked past to the Secret Chiefs, Celestial Masters, or Order of Guardian Angels who may engage the sincere and interested aspirant approaching them in her own way.those who base their social weight upon lineages or Second Order proclamations out of sync with their referents (as in esoteric networks where certain standards are said to apply, personal evaluations are issued as part of reputation-swaggering, and a 'hardening of the arteries' of esoteric current has set in) do themselves and their associates a disservice by engaging in this kind of expression.
-
Nigris' post, of course, has essentially nothing to do with the Order called A.'.A.'.. He explicitly dismisses some of the most concrete, specific principles articulated in writing by the only person authorized to do so.
-
@nigris said
"
@Alrah said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"Separately, I add only the interesting facts that about a month before Germer's death, he affirmed in writing that Motta was no more than a 1=10, whereas a decade earlier he had affirmed (and discussed in lengthy correspondence) that Phyllis was at least a 5=6. If (note the 'if') these were the only two choices on who was "the member of the A.'.A.'. highest in rank (and then in seniority)" at Germer's death, it seems an easy choice."indeed it stands, Jim! ..."
it does not. the problem of evaluation within an esoteric and non-centralized manifestation beyond the Third Order (into manifestation) are sufficient so as to avoid the whole enterprise, and this is just one of the reasons that severe restraints are set on A.'.A.'. social descripts.granted the premise that this retains a streaming throughput from the Third Order of the Great White Brotherhood, and that this holds meaning on par with Eckhartshausen or other sources, then there is every reason to think that personal evaluations of these kinds are counter-indicators of reliable connection thereto. thus if someone goes on record in some public way evaluating one "lineage" over against another or one person who is "part of" some "lineage" or "order" and these are supposed to be related to the Third Order, we may conclude deductively that they have disqualified themselves from authority.
"...the only head of any A.'.A.'. lineage is Crowley himself."
there is no 'head' of a sphere."...the inspiration for the A.'.A.'. came from the work of Florence Farr when she sought to establish 'the Sphere', and ...the A.'.A.'. is a direct successor of the Sphere conceptually, and I channel that from my own lineage."
if it is and was based on the Third Order, then its manifestation is older, by form, or work, than anything Miss Farr may have conceived."...we should not judge the A.'.A.'. as if it were a mundane organisation shaped with a pyramid power structure...."
of any kind. the fresh reed of the A.'.A.'. is constantly rigidifying and becoming Secondary."...There can be no 'true lineage' - as members of the Sphere will arise across the formal boundaries of lineage just as they do across the artificial boundaries of countries. Or they may arise from no known lineage as they will. The current will die, and be reborn, and live again, and die again."
the term 'lineage' gives the impression of a single trajectory or origin of authority to esoteric content. this is distinctly at odds with how such content is mediated from their source-points as Mysteries and through the experience, psychology, and expressive output of incidental exponents (in specific interactions). these are constellated in an 'atmosphere' (similar to your assertion about the sphere) of indeterminate cause. were that cause determined, it would solidify into a Second Order and become known and defined (as might have Crowley's construct if it effectively 'died' at some point after his initiation of it with George Cecil Jones).{from a letter}
"...the only test of whether an A.'.A.'. is proper or not is whether they teach the material that A.C. placed in the public domain from the very beginning,"
this sets the Second(ary) Order in place, guaranteeing ossification. like the cosmos and cosmology where people invert the notion of manifestation to derive the material world from some unseen and transcendental dimension, so people invert the authority of the Third Order and place emphasis on the terrestrial streams of carriage rather than to pay attention to the resonance these have with that transcendental originating source and their Mysteries." and whether they produce Adepts and foster the cultivation of new Magisters (i.e. the accomplishment of the two main tasks of every magician)."
so easily misunderstood and badly assessed that it has become a cult of its own, disconnected from the real excepting as it vies for supremacy of reputation."...The members of the Sphere were purely interested in individual spiritual progression and work. The true A.'.A.'. are the successors of The Sphere and it may not be ruled by the mundane concerns of the pyramid organisations..."
there are no "successors" to the Third Order. this is one of the fallacies of Second Order fallouts. they self-disqualify each time they begin to do Second Order work, thereby effectively requesting that they be looked past to the Secret Chiefs, Celestial Masters, or Order of Guardian Angels who may engage the sincere and interested aspirant approaching them in her own way.those who base their social weight upon lineages or Second Order proclamations out of sync with their referents (as in esoteric networks where certain standards are said to apply, personal evaluations are issued as part of reputation-swaggering, and a 'hardening of the arteries' of esoteric current has set in) do themselves and their associates a disservice by engaging in this kind of expression."
I daresay, all this coming from a self-professed "Black Brother"?
@Jim Eshelman said
"Nigris' post, of course, has essentially nothing to do with the Order called A.'.A.'.. He explicitly dismisses some of the most concrete, specific principles articulated in writing by the only person authorized to do so."
Agreed.
-
@kasper81 said
"What is the "it"?"
"The ways of the Khabs," according to the syntax.
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@kasper81 said
"What is the "it"?""The ways of the Khabs," according to the syntax."
Ergo, the question is...
The way of the Khabs... let it kill me
or
The way of the Khabs... let it fill me.
(The Khabs is in the Khu, not the Khu in the Khabs)