"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"
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93,
I think it is a k, it looks like a k and is different from the other two examples, I just don't know if it's Crowleys K....
Everyone has seen the arguments presented and I'm fairly certain most of the people here agree that it is is 'fill' and not kill. I have two copies of liber L and quite frankly, even if it sounds a bit rude, I couldn't care less what anyone else has. Then again I do side that noone has the authority to change a class A document, but surely any real seeker would check the manuscript and see that big old 'fill'.....perhaps another organisation will publish a clean copy and advertise it as an 'unchanged' version. I believe at the end of the day Mr Breeze has made his decision and believes he is correct in doing so and so nothing anyone says or does is going to change his decision, especially since he believes it is the will of the universe for this to happen. Hell if I believed that, I wouldn't go against it either!
93, 93/93.
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@Archaeus said
"Except that your two examples are already capitals whereas the 'f' in fill clearly is not.....?"
In which case it would indicate the f should be F.
Aum! let it Fill me.
But as it was neither changed to a k not capitalized to an F by Crowley it makes no difference.
Some other points of note are:
- Usually Crowley rings spelling changes in his proofing rather than striking them through. I've only found one other occurrence of him striking through a spelling change and that is also in the Windram copy- into > unto
- If it was a k then why is it a uppercase K rather than a lowercase 'k'?
- Crowley (or someone) lifts the pressure between the two characters rather than follows through as he would have done with one character. He does not lift in other instances of the letter K.
- If it was a K then it omits the proofing mark of |. It should be |k. Also unusual for Crowley but also seen in the Windram copy (into > unto again). This again raises the question of whether Crowley really proofed that section or whether Windram or another may have done it.
So it is more likely to be |c than K. If HB really believes it is a K then he should be changing it to a capital and not a lowercase k. Why doesn't he?
There is an assumption being made that the K is really a K, but it's just an assumption. It could as easily be a |c.
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@mark0987 said
"93,
I think it is a k, it looks like a k and is different from the other two examples, I just don't know if it's Crowleys K....
Everyone has seen the arguments presented and I'm fairly certain most of the people here agree that it is is 'fill' and not kill. I have two copies of liber L and quite frankly, even if it sounds a bit rude, I couldn't care less what anyone else has. Then again I do side that noone has the authority to change a class A document, but surely any real seeker would check the manuscript and see that big old 'fill'.....perhaps another organisation will publish a clean copy and advertise it as an 'unchanged' version. I believe at the end of the day Mr Breeze has made his decision and believes he is correct in doing so and so nothing anyone says or does is going to change his decision, especially since he believes it is the will of the universe for this to happen. Hell if I believed that, I wouldn't go against it either!
93, 93/93."
You're right, it doesn't look like the other two editing marks, which is not to say that's not what it is; either way 'd say this is a pretty slim piece of evidence, and unnecessary in the face of the weight of evidence that Breeze's 'correction' is merely his own folly.
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@Archaeus said
"
@mark0987 said
"93,I think it is a k, it looks like a k and is different from the other two examples, I just don't know if it's Crowleys K....
Everyone has seen the arguments presented and I'm fairly certain most of the people here agree that it is is 'fill' and not kill. I have two copies of liber L and quite frankly, even if it sounds a bit rude, I couldn't care less what anyone else has. Then again I do side that noone has the authority to change a class A document, but surely any real seeker would check the manuscript and see that big old 'fill'.....perhaps another organisation will publish a clean copy and advertise it as an 'unchanged' version. I believe at the end of the day Mr Breeze has made his decision and believes he is correct in doing so and so nothing anyone says or does is going to change his decision, especially since he believes it is the will of the universe for this to happen. Hell if I believed that, I wouldn't go against it either!
93, 93/93."
You're right, it doesn't look like the other two editing marks, which is not to say that's not what it is; either way 'd say this is a pretty slim piece of evidence, and unnecessary in the face of the weight of evidence that Breeze's 'correction' is merely his own folly."
I think Crowley certain wrote in Windram's copy but I don't believe he proofed it, because he uses different proofing conventions in his other works. I think he's made some notes on Qabalah for Windram in the margins, but the capitals by the trigrams don't look like they are written in Crowley's distinctive hand either. They are corse and inelegant. I have zero confidence that the proof-reader and Crowley are the same writer for these reasons.
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I think that this whole thing merely puts us into the mouth of Choronzon, divides Thelemites and drags the whole movement into the sort of sectarian stupidity that devises like Class A designations were supposed to avoid, for which reason Breeze has shown himself to be unpardonably stupid.
In 500 years Thelema will be just another divided cultus, much like Christianity and Islam are today. Truly the limits of human stupidity are boundless.
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@Archaeus said
"I think that this whole thing merely puts us into the mouth of Choronzon, divides Thelemites and drags the whole movement into the sort of sectarian stupidity that devises like Class A designations were supposed to avoid, for which reason Breeze has shown himself to be unpardonably stupid.
In 500 years Thelema will be just another divided cultus, much like Christianity and Islam are today. Truly the limits of human stupidity are boundless."
Unquestionably stupid. Breeze, and Gunther, and Wasserman, and Lon Milo Duquette, and David Shoemaker, and all the ones who immediately accepted whatever Breeze said without the slightest question. The Churchill gang... oooooh yes.
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@Archaeus said
"I think that this whole thing merely puts us into the mouth of Choronzon"
An inevitable result of people who were expelled from, or never members of an Order claiming to be it's Heads? The cracks are starting to show.
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@nashimiron said
"
@Archaeus said
"I think that this whole thing merely puts us into the mouth of Choronzon"An inevitable result of people who were expelled from, or never members of an Order claiming to be it's Heads? The cracks are starting to show."
Touche'.
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@Alrah said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Separately, I add only the interesting facts that about a month before Germer's death, he affirmed in writing that Motta was no more than a 1=10, whereas a decade earlier he had affirmed (and discussed in lengthy correspondence) that Phyllis was at least a 5=6. If (note the 'if') these were the only two choices on who was "the member of the A.'.A.'. highest in rank (and then in seniority)" at Germer's death, it seems an easy choice."indeed it stands, Jim! ..."
it does not. the problem of evaluation within an esoteric and non-centralized manifestation beyond the Third Order (into manifestation) are sufficient so as to avoid the whole enterprise, and this is just one of the reasons that severe restraints are set on A.'.A.'. social descripts.granted the premise that this retains a streaming throughput from the Third Order of the Great White Brotherhood, and that this holds meaning on par with Eckhartshausen or other sources, then there is every reason to think that personal evaluations of these kinds are counter-indicators of reliable connection thereto. thus if someone goes on record in some public way evaluating one "lineage" over against another or one person who is "part of" some "lineage" or "order" and these are supposed to be related to the Third Order, we may conclude deductively that they have disqualified themselves from authority.
"...the only head of any A.'.A.'. lineage is Crowley himself."
there is no 'head' of a sphere."...the inspiration for the A.'.A.'. came from the work of Florence Farr when she sought to establish 'the Sphere', and ...the A.'.A.'. is a direct successor of the Sphere conceptually, and I channel that from my own lineage."
if it is and was based on the Third Order, then its manifestation is older, by form, or work, than anything Miss Farr may have conceived."...we should not judge the A.'.A.'. as if it were a mundane organisation shaped with a pyramid power structure...."
of any kind. the fresh reed of the A.'.A.'. is constantly rigidifying and becoming Secondary."...There can be no 'true lineage' - as members of the Sphere will arise across the formal boundaries of lineage just as they do across the artificial boundaries of countries. Or they may arise from no known lineage as they will. The current will die, and be reborn, and live again, and die again."
the term 'lineage' gives the impression of a single trajectory or origin of authority to esoteric content. this is distinctly at odds with how such content is mediated from their source-points as Mysteries and through the experience, psychology, and expressive output of incidental exponents (in specific interactions). these are constellated in an 'atmosphere' (similar to your assertion about the sphere) of indeterminate cause. were that cause determined, it would solidify into a Second Order and become known and defined (as might have Crowley's construct if it effectively 'died' at some point after his initiation of it with George Cecil Jones).{from a letter}
"...the only test of whether an A.'.A.'. is proper or not is whether they teach the material that A.C. placed in the public domain from the very beginning,"
this sets the Second(ary) Order in place, guaranteeing ossification. like the cosmos and cosmology where people invert the notion of manifestation to derive the material world from some unseen and transcendental dimension, so people invert the authority of the Third Order and place emphasis on the terrestrial streams of carriage rather than to pay attention to the resonance these have with that transcendental originating source and their Mysteries." and whether they produce Adepts and foster the cultivation of new Magisters (i.e. the accomplishment of the two main tasks of every magician)."
so easily misunderstood and badly assessed that it has become a cult of its own, disconnected from the real excepting as it vies for supremacy of reputation."...The members of the Sphere were purely interested in individual spiritual progression and work. The true A.'.A.'. are the successors of The Sphere and it may not be ruled by the mundane concerns of the pyramid organisations..."
there are no "successors" to the Third Order. this is one of the fallacies of Second Order fallouts. they self-disqualify each time they begin to do Second Order work, thereby effectively requesting that they be looked past to the Secret Chiefs, Celestial Masters, or Order of Guardian Angels who may engage the sincere and interested aspirant approaching them in her own way.those who base their social weight upon lineages or Second Order proclamations out of sync with their referents (as in esoteric networks where certain standards are said to apply, personal evaluations are issued as part of reputation-swaggering, and a 'hardening of the arteries' of esoteric current has set in) do themselves and their associates a disservice by engaging in this kind of expression.
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Nigris' post, of course, has essentially nothing to do with the Order called A.'.A.'.. He explicitly dismisses some of the most concrete, specific principles articulated in writing by the only person authorized to do so.
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@nigris said
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@Alrah said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"Separately, I add only the interesting facts that about a month before Germer's death, he affirmed in writing that Motta was no more than a 1=10, whereas a decade earlier he had affirmed (and discussed in lengthy correspondence) that Phyllis was at least a 5=6. If (note the 'if') these were the only two choices on who was "the member of the A.'.A.'. highest in rank (and then in seniority)" at Germer's death, it seems an easy choice."indeed it stands, Jim! ..."
it does not. the problem of evaluation within an esoteric and non-centralized manifestation beyond the Third Order (into manifestation) are sufficient so as to avoid the whole enterprise, and this is just one of the reasons that severe restraints are set on A.'.A.'. social descripts.granted the premise that this retains a streaming throughput from the Third Order of the Great White Brotherhood, and that this holds meaning on par with Eckhartshausen or other sources, then there is every reason to think that personal evaluations of these kinds are counter-indicators of reliable connection thereto. thus if someone goes on record in some public way evaluating one "lineage" over against another or one person who is "part of" some "lineage" or "order" and these are supposed to be related to the Third Order, we may conclude deductively that they have disqualified themselves from authority.
"...the only head of any A.'.A.'. lineage is Crowley himself."
there is no 'head' of a sphere."...the inspiration for the A.'.A.'. came from the work of Florence Farr when she sought to establish 'the Sphere', and ...the A.'.A.'. is a direct successor of the Sphere conceptually, and I channel that from my own lineage."
if it is and was based on the Third Order, then its manifestation is older, by form, or work, than anything Miss Farr may have conceived."...we should not judge the A.'.A.'. as if it were a mundane organisation shaped with a pyramid power structure...."
of any kind. the fresh reed of the A.'.A.'. is constantly rigidifying and becoming Secondary."...There can be no 'true lineage' - as members of the Sphere will arise across the formal boundaries of lineage just as they do across the artificial boundaries of countries. Or they may arise from no known lineage as they will. The current will die, and be reborn, and live again, and die again."
the term 'lineage' gives the impression of a single trajectory or origin of authority to esoteric content. this is distinctly at odds with how such content is mediated from their source-points as Mysteries and through the experience, psychology, and expressive output of incidental exponents (in specific interactions). these are constellated in an 'atmosphere' (similar to your assertion about the sphere) of indeterminate cause. were that cause determined, it would solidify into a Second Order and become known and defined (as might have Crowley's construct if it effectively 'died' at some point after his initiation of it with George Cecil Jones).{from a letter}
"...the only test of whether an A.'.A.'. is proper or not is whether they teach the material that A.C. placed in the public domain from the very beginning,"
this sets the Second(ary) Order in place, guaranteeing ossification. like the cosmos and cosmology where people invert the notion of manifestation to derive the material world from some unseen and transcendental dimension, so people invert the authority of the Third Order and place emphasis on the terrestrial streams of carriage rather than to pay attention to the resonance these have with that transcendental originating source and their Mysteries." and whether they produce Adepts and foster the cultivation of new Magisters (i.e. the accomplishment of the two main tasks of every magician)."
so easily misunderstood and badly assessed that it has become a cult of its own, disconnected from the real excepting as it vies for supremacy of reputation."...The members of the Sphere were purely interested in individual spiritual progression and work. The true A.'.A.'. are the successors of The Sphere and it may not be ruled by the mundane concerns of the pyramid organisations..."
there are no "successors" to the Third Order. this is one of the fallacies of Second Order fallouts. they self-disqualify each time they begin to do Second Order work, thereby effectively requesting that they be looked past to the Secret Chiefs, Celestial Masters, or Order of Guardian Angels who may engage the sincere and interested aspirant approaching them in her own way.those who base their social weight upon lineages or Second Order proclamations out of sync with their referents (as in esoteric networks where certain standards are said to apply, personal evaluations are issued as part of reputation-swaggering, and a 'hardening of the arteries' of esoteric current has set in) do themselves and their associates a disservice by engaging in this kind of expression."
I daresay, all this coming from a self-professed "Black Brother"?
@Jim Eshelman said
"Nigris' post, of course, has essentially nothing to do with the Order called A.'.A.'.. He explicitly dismisses some of the most concrete, specific principles articulated in writing by the only person authorized to do so."
Agreed.
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@kasper81 said
"What is the "it"?"
"The ways of the Khabs," according to the syntax.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@kasper81 said
"What is the "it"?""The ways of the Khabs," according to the syntax."
Ergo, the question is...
The way of the Khabs... let it kill me
or
The way of the Khabs... let it fill me.
(The Khabs is in the Khu, not the Khu in the Khabs)
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Just a quick question, If the Fill me/Kill me is published today will that make Liber AL copyright continue for another 70 years (or what ever it is?) from date of publication of added so called correction? Will this mean that any without the change no longer copyrighted/void...........I think its about cash to be honest, Many in Thelema have become greedy and the only Magick is Money for certain individuals imo.
Not trying to get all political here nor hijack thread for a political views. (I dont really care, follow, believe in whom or what ever group you want Im just adding an opinion.)
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It will mean that all editions with the "fill me" "correction" have a new copyright. The actual text of Liber AL has already fallen into public domain by copyright law. Once the "fill me" version is published, you would violate copyright law to reprint that version (in entirety and not withstanding any fair use situations such as a scholarly review of the content of that portion of the text).
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Is that true Takamba? Just asking because I know that in UK/European copyright law, it's 75 years after the death of the author which, if Crowley is taken as the author, would mean it's still covered.
I have heard that there have been court cases establishing Aiwass as the legitimate author but do those hold jurisdiction?
It's always seemed like a potential money grab to me as well is why I'm asking.
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I believe his point is that it's irrelevant what the copyright of the original is. By changing anything at all. You create a new work, with a new copyright period. The specific edition is newly protected, under those conditions.
The original. Though, is its own thing.
There are various exceptions and special cases, but the above is widely true. (Don't get me started n the 'work in progress' exceptions.)
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Yeah, that side of the equation is definitely true. My question (and deep seated discomfort with the whole thing) stems from motive. If the book has been in the public domain, then this controversy can be chalked up to honest scholarly disagreement (I think one side has the clear factual advantage, but I'm willing to give the other the benefit of the doubt).
If, however, this is a work that is currently under copyright but will be falling out within the decade... a motivation to retain copyright for another X number of years enters into the evaluation. Yes, as the law sees it, they are two separate works. The copyright holder, on the other hand, would experience it as an extension on royalties for their "Authorized Edition".
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
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I decided, at the beginning of this question, not to speculate on motives. I can, however, see consequences of the actions
If I speculate on motives, I make this personal. I would also be ignoring the fact that multiple people were surely involved in this decision (it's the sort of thing that would have resulted in conversations among several people - some known to me, some not) - and that means motives are multiple, individual, not necessarily all of them being known to all parties.
Ah, unless it was a conspiracy! <vbg>
And I'm certain (from those parties I do know) that at least some motives, and perhaps the strongest motives, are positive (even when I disagree with the result).
So... I do get the discomfort on this, bro. I just wanted to distinguish my comments on consequences from any actual ascription of motive.
PS - In case it hasn't been answered here: Yes, the Crowley literary estate has, as far as I know, always accepted Liber Legis as public domain. Considering Crowley's repeated, unequivocal, sometimes emphatic statement that he wasn't the author, that isn't surprising.