Function of Gratitude in Magick
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@Legis said
"If you have an argument against my actual point instead of merely demonstrating the bias of believing such Thelemic instructions are impervious to misinterpretation as standards, I'll hear it.
"Evidence you've missed the mark. I never said "such Thelemic instructions are impervious to misinterpretation." Why would I say that when your previous posts point out your own misinterpretation of "standards" which "tend toward Uniformity" as equal to "all standards of any kind." You're barking up some other tree than the ones I've planted.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Hint: Los says "by definition" whenever he has constructed an argument without any empirical evidence."
No, I say "be definition" when one of my conclusions is derived from the definitions of the terms under discussion.
If you think I'm wrong, then you've really only got two angles to refute me: 1) show that I'm using an incorrect definition, or 2) show that I'm incorrectly drawing the conclusion from the definition.
Of course, you won't be able to do that because I'm correct on both points.
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@Legis said
"Any instruction, however, may be* misunderstood *and misapplied as a standard"
If all you're trying to say is that people can misunderstand Thelema and turn it into some kind of ideal that they should live up to, you're entirely correct. A look through online Thelemic forums -- not naming any ones in particular, mind you -- demonstrates that there's no end of idiots who have absolutely no idea what Thelema is about.
A good example would be that Keith418 character, who thinks that Thelema is all about living up to a particular political standard (in his case, a wackadoo right-wing politics).
I just saw a post on a forum the other day in which a someone was saying that his idea of Thelema was inventing your own morality that suits you. He couldn't possibly be more wrong.
A big part of the problem is that there are Thelemites who think that Thelema can mean anything that a person wants or that it's "tyranny" to suggest that there is a consistent, correct interpretation of what terms like "True Will" actually mean.
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@Los said
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Hint: Los says "by definition" whenever he has constructed an argument without any empirical evidence."No, I say "be definition" when one of my conclusions is derived from the definitions of the terms under discussion.
If you think I'm wrong, then you've really only got two angles to refute me: 1) show that I'm using an incorrect definition, or 2) show that I'm incorrectly drawing the conclusion from the definition.
Of course, you won't be able to do that because I'm correct on both points."
You've supplied zero evidence that a person who holds themselves to standards can't be following their true will.
It's silly nonsense.
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@Legis said
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@Alrah said
"The problem with a external standard that has been internalized such as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is that living up to it requires a certain dogmatic rigidity of the mindset that is ultimately self-defeating. Any dogmatic rigidity will simply be exploited by people who have any of the dark triad personality traits.
"And what of the injunctions, advice, "standards" if you will, of Liber Legis?
"Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt."
"Obey my prophet!"
"Pity not the fallen! I never knew them."
"Mercy let be off: damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!"May these not also be misunderstood? Do they also, when internalized, "require a certain dogmatic rigidity of the mindset that is ultimately self-defeating"?
In my opinion, any spiritual injunction may be misinterpreted, "standardized," and abused by those who wish to manipulate others for their own benefit. If I were a "dark triad" type, oh how I might abuse them to manipulate others into being an enforcer of my ego's own kingdom.
I do agree that Thelema as a whole is more resistant to being abused by manipulations of compassion. It does, however, exhibit some weaknesses,* when specific injunctions are taken out of their context and abused *as "do unto others" has been, in creating a blindness to the potentials of the "dark triad" in oneself."
This is how this discussion began. If you've lost track of it, this was and has always been my point.
Goodbye to the topic!
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
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You've supplied zero evidence that a person who holds themselves to standards can't be following their true will.It's silly nonsense."
If that's all Los has suggested, that "holding yourself to a standard inhibits the discovering and following of one's True Will," I agree. One exception would be any standard that allows for fluid utilization, which means it can be applied when and where and in what degree necessary for the moment. Any other application of a standard leads to stagnation, or, at least, doing "the standard thing" instead of one's Will.
Let me give you some examples, this might help. One should have a standard for what one calls a straight line, but we must be cautious less this prevent us from understanding that space is actually curved. Or, on a more practical level, one does well to have a standard in mathematics when balancing one's accounts so as not to go into debt to the bank, but this is not the same as indicating a person should follow a standard on what is a valuable purchase and what is not - that's individual choice, one's will, and possibly in line with one's True Will to determine. We mustn't confuse the word "standard" with all of it's dictionary definitions when I'm only using the word as it applies to just one of its definitions: "morals, ethics, habits, etc., established by authority, custom, or an individual as acceptable" If the standard is "serve your neighbor, by god!" then you do your neighbor's will and God's will (assuming, of course). In an of itself this is not a "bad" thing, but since you may not have discovered this "act of will" of serving on your own, may have been taught it as the standard, it prevents you from surfacing to your own Will. Doing that is not itself "bad" or necessarily even "accursed" (Crowley's words) but if it is a standard (moral, ethical, customary) requirement, it is not individual - now is it? What about the point in time when you've gotten yourself down to your last nickle and final shirt on your back. Are you still to be required to uphold the standard?
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Takamba,
I don't disagree with much of what you're saying.
However, I think it's easy to confuse the goal with the method.
It's very easy to imagine that a distorted reflection of our inclination is our true will, and if we don't choose to hold ourself to a standard, we can easily lead ourselves away from our true will.
For example, my natural sense of justice may stir me to anger over a person's unjust behavior. That inclination is unconsciously warped by fears and insecurities I haven't completely purged yet. So the outcome is that I would like to engage in harsh retribution. I want to attack someone, physically or magically.
Yet I consciously remind myself of some standards I have chosen to try to live up to. That I will focus on my will, instead of worrying about others. That violent confrontation is a last resort that I can almost certainly avoid. I choose to express my anger within the ethical limitations I an imposing on myself.
Reality and my nature will constantly test the limits of my adopted standards, allowing me more settings to discover more of my true will. Success is my guide.
Unless someone had really and truly learned to listen to their true will without distortion (which is a life long task for most), abandoning all ethical standards is crazy dumb.
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Have you seen the James Franco movie 127 Hours? Spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't watched it (in other words, move along, there's nothing for you to see here).
In 127 Hours, a hiker finds himself trapped by a boulder while hiking alone, and without having told anyone where he'd be, in the Utah desert. The boulder pins his right arm against the canyon wall. He tries desperately every imaginable measure within his means to escape his current fate, but to no avail, until the last desperate measure - that of amputating his forearm and eventually walking out of the desert to civilization.
Now, no one would call the self-mutilation of a necessary limb a workable standard, far less would it be considered civilized - but it did become the required objective in order to continue on with the True Will we all share; the will to live.
Take the Donner Party as another example, and also that soccer team that crashed in the Andes as an equal example - in both cases the behavior that they found required in order to survive they would later refuse to be able to even speak of (truly the definition of an unspeakable act). By many a standard, these people would be considered to have no rights to be alive - now isn't that true?
The above stories, which may be allowed to only be "stories" for all that is concerned, do illustrate the point that being held to standards (morals and ethics as approved by the majority or the superior authorities) would have prevented the protagonists involved from achieving their True Will, which in these cases I remind you is the basic one we all must share (to stay alive).
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Yea, Bob Marley had a standard too. Many religious people do, and it prevents them from making a critical choice ( medical attention in his case) at the right time to save their lives. And then the musics gone, because they believed they couldn't or shouldn't change.....
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(@Takamba)
That doesn't contradict my point. For every one of those stories, there's another where someone abandons their ethics prematurely because they thought they had no other recourse, only to find out it was a sacrifice they regretted.
In all cases, it's our struggle that teaches us who we are. So standards are very much a part of discovering our true will.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"That doesn't contradict my point."
I don't think these examples necessarily do either. If the events do not coincide with the True Will (which is in essence perfect), it is because the "illusion" of the observation hasn't been accepted as inherently necessary to discovering and acting in accordance with the True Will. It is up to the observer to act and observe in right relation to the True Will at all times -- which, through increased awareness, can actually make observations less "confused" over time...
@Crowley said
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The elasticity of Magick makes it equal to all possible kinds of environment, and therefore biologically perfect. "Do what thou wilt..." implies self-adjustment, so that failure cannot occur. One's true Will is necessarily fitted to the whole Universe with the utmost exactitude, because each term in the equation a+b+c=0 must be equal and opposite to the sum of all the other terms. No individual can ever be aught than himself, or do aught else than his Will, which is his necessary relation with his environment, dynamically considered. All error is no more than an illusion proper to him to dissipate the mirage..."
What does everyone think is meant by "failure cannot occur?"
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@Frater 639 said
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What does everyone think is meant by "failure cannot occur?""If one is constantly able to adjust to things, to not be rigid in one's standards of response to circumstance, one can learn and adapt and, although maybe not as quickly as imagined, get one's self to the right path for success. Even if this means that discovering one was wasting time toward a fool's errand, one can then correct one's self and still avoid failure.
On the other hand, if one is living by a rigid expectation of what one "must" be doing or accomplishing, one may spend eternal life times failing to see the light.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"You've supplied zero evidence that a person who holds themselves to standards can't be following their true will."
I've certainly explained how my conclusion follows from the definitions. Either you think the definitions I'm using are incorrect or that I have correct definitions but am incorrectly drawing conclusions from the definitions.
Explain which one it is and demonstrate that you've got the correct approach.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Unless someone had really and truly learned to listen to their true will without distortion (which is a life long task for most), abandoning all ethical standards is crazy dumb."
A person cannot "learn to listen to their true will without distortion" unless that person gets rid of all ethical standards. Ethical standards are, after all, one of the primary ways that the mind distorts the True Will.
"There are no 'standards of Right.' Ethics is balderdash. Each Star must go on its orbit. To hell with 'moral Principle;' there is no such thing; that is a herd-delusion, and makes men cattle."
--Aleister Crowley -
@Takamba said
"If one is constantly able to adjust to things, to not be rigid in one's standards of response to circumstance, one can learn and adapt and, although maybe not as quickly as imagined, get one's self to the right path for success."
"Success" and "failure" aren't things that exist in the world. They're ideas about the world -- static ideas about a world constantly in flux.
It's true that "failure cannot occur," just like success cannot occur because each of those words is a label that the mind places around a state of affairs. And then we instantly have a new state of affairs to deal with. Ideas like success and failure are only useful insofar as they provide information that may be useful for planning one's next move.
Acquiescing to the elasticity of the world means that one doesn't have to get caught up in phantoms of the mind like success or failure anymore. Instead, one can get to the heart of the matter, paying attention to what's real.
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@Takamba said
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@Frater 639 said
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What does everyone think is meant by "failure cannot occur?""If one is constantly able to adjust to things, to not be rigid in one's standards of response to circumstance, one can learn and adapt and, although maybe not as quickly as imagined, get one's self to the right path for success. Even if this means that discovering one was wasting time toward a fool's errand, one can then correct one's self and still avoid failure.
On the other hand, if one is living by a rigid expectation of what one "must" be doing or accomplishing, one may spend eternal life times failing to see the light."
Yes, Agreed. I usually look at these two phenomenon as "becoming" and "being," which was echoed by Los here (what a cool discussion):
@Los said
""Success" and "failure" aren't things that exist in the world. They're ideas about the world -- static ideas about a world constantly in flux.
It's true that "failure cannot occur," just like success cannot occur because each of those words is a label that the mind places around a state of affairs. And then we instantly have a new state of affairs to deal with. Ideas like success and failure are only useful insofar as they provide information that may be useful for planning one's next move.
Acquiescing to the elasticity of the world means that one doesn't have to get caught up in phantoms of the mind like success or failure anymore. Instead, one can get to the heart of the matter, paying attention to what's real."
*Sin (See Skeat's Ety. Dict.) is connected with the root "es", to be. This throws a new light on the passage. Sin is restriction, that is, it is 'being' as opposed to 'becoming'. The fundamental idea of wrong is the static as opposed to the dynamic conception of the Universe. This explanation is not only in harmony with the general teaching of the Book of the Law, but shows how profoundly the author understands Himself.
*
-- The Law is for All -- Chap. I v. 41 (footnote)I tend to look at phenomena in the same way as well. Either "Going" (becoming) or some sort of observation about "Going" which can lead to projection or recollection, which can skew action in accordance with True Will, as we all seem to agree on...
Crowley attributes this "in the moment" view to the fifth Power of the Sphinx, which he called "Ire" - which means "To Go."
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@Los said
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@Takamba said
"If one is constantly able to adjust to things, to not be rigid in one's standards of response to circumstance, one can learn and adapt and, although maybe not as quickly as imagined, get one's self to the right path for success.""Success" and "failure" aren't things that exist in the world. They're ideas about the world -- static ideas about a world constantly in flux.
It's true that "failure cannot occur," just like success cannot occur because each of those words is a label that the mind places around a state of affairs. And then we instantly have a new state of affairs to deal with. Ideas like success and failure are only useful insofar as they provide information that may be useful for planning one's next move.
Acquiescing to the elasticity of the world means that one doesn't have to get caught up in phantoms of the mind like success or failure anymore. Instead, one can get to the heart of the matter, paying attention to what's real."
ALL HAIL THE GREAT LOS
ALL HAIL THE GREAT LOS
Nothing here was said, he just wanted to say he was right and an other was wrong.
ALL HAIL THE GREAT LOS
success is his proof
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I think I've come to my final answer on the "standard" bit.
Bottom line:
If it's an externally-imposed standard, to hell with it if it contradicts my Will. But neither am I deviating from my Will to contradict an externally-imposed standard without reason. I'm just not thinking about the damned thing in the first place.
If it's an internally-imposed standard, it's nobody else's business why I've chosen to use it, what changes in accordance to Will I hope to create by it, or what I hope to experience in that process. If I choose it willingly, it's just nobody else's business. Not in Thelema.
Probably not gonna play the "no failure" game.
Peace.
p.s. Notice I have used the present tense to describe a situation in which I imagine myself currently being. Please don't let this confuse anyone.
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@ Legis - I loved watching you trying to impose a standard on yourself as the thread went on - i.e. the 'my last post' stuff, but then you seemed to find yourself driven to post anyway and thereby damned your standard each time to remain an unrealized and impotent restriction of your will...
Was that a deliberate Q.E.D.?
I enjoyed it immensely. -
@Alrah said
"@ Legis - I loved watching you trying to impose a standard on yourself as the thread went on - i.e. the 'my last post' stuff, but then you seemed to find yourself driven to post anyway and thereby damned your standard each time to remain an unrealized and impotent restriction of your will...
Was that a deliberate Q.E.D.?
I enjoyed it immensely."lol... Not deliberate. More like learning from it in the "going." Therefore, "no failure."
