Spiritism and Ancestral Veneration
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"Could you say more on what types of communications there are with ancestors or spirits? "
The communications from the ancestors can manifest as omens, dreams, or even clairvoyant experiences; they are as varied as people are each unique.
"And with voodoo gods?"
The voodoo gods communicate in similar fashions; however, they are more prone to jump on someone's head if they feel it is necessary even outside of ceremonial context.
"Could you draw a parallel /indicate correspondances and differences in the initiatic way?"
Establishing the link with the Ancestors corresponds with the path of Tau. Dreams will intensify and often times non-ancestral entities will begin to communicate as well. It is very important to have strong connection with the ancestors, as they are consider the true door openers.
The Laver Tet is a rite that is performed before initiation to open the head to receive the spirit. If this is not properly performed the initiate may experience problems that may not fully manifest until it is too late to fully correct. If one is searching for a house, they should be careful of those that offer high "degrees" of initiation for a dollar amount without any sort of divination being performed prior. More often than not, people that go through this process to quickly begin to problems after the first year. Generally, the proper protocols require "foreigners" or for a better understanding: those who have never served the Lwa, to wait a year and visit many ceremonies, as well as, be properly educated on how to serve the ancestors and the Lwa in general. Personally, I visited my Papa's "house" for over a year before I was initiated. Like many others before my life was stabilized with the help of the Lwa before I was initiated.
"Is voodoo supposed to initiate to Briah for instance? Is manifestation very powerful?"
Voodoo initiation is not expressed in such terms. Typically, a potential initiate into the priesthood would have to display that they are opening to Yetziratic consciousness, before being initiated. The training that follows opens the path to secure control over yetziratic beings. Oftentimes the spirits will challenge the new priest by pushing and pulling on his/her desires and emotions. Once one has "control" of the spirit, the real process begins. It takes up to ten years for someone to become a "full" Houngan or Mambo. This process may be fast-tracked depending upon how hard the initiate works at the process. It is very demanding initially, and constant purification is done to ease the process. A Lwa Bath is not something to be taken lightly, a person may spend days bathing themselves in perfumes and herbs while the spirit aides in their development or removal of obstructions. Because of the nature and speed of the process it can be destabilizing for those not mentally sound or balanced.
Each individual develops differently, so please understand that the examples given are rather general. I know that I have given a lengthy response and still haven't answered this question so please bear a bit longer:
The new initiate is typically consider "Sur Pwen" they are taught to work with their Head Spirit and familiar spirits until they have developed enough to receive the Asson and thereby be able to pass on the Asson. The actual ceremony of become Asogwe in the tradition of the Asson is that the initiate is taught how to create the Asson. Nowadays, the tradition is to simply give the initiate an Asson and say you are now Asogwe, but it is highly irregular however becoming more popular. Holding Asson is a particular tradition, but some societies do not incorporate the Asson and still produce legitimate Asogwe. It is unfortunate that certain houses sell initiation to make money, and leaves their initiates completely dependent on their superiors. Be a wise investigator before looking for a Voodoo house, many of which portray themselves as holier than thou are often corrupt and carry little knowledge.
Now that I have clarified what is proper, I can define that the Houngan/Mambo Asogwe should have attend Briatic consciousness. There is a higher degree, less known about unless one has traveled to Haiti known as Emperor. The term is applied to High Initiates of certain societies, who hold a near absolute authority within the religion. Basically, what they say goes, and questioning their motives or degree is unwise. On that point: when two priest encounter one another and legitimacy is challenged there exists a series of signs and gesture as well as certain passwords to indicate status or rank, this is only done in person and never in a public forum. However, such things are a rare occurrence as most priests are so developed that they should immediately recognize one another.
"Is manifestation very powerful?"
I would imagine that full blown possession is as powerful as it gets. Watching a small person pick up someone almost twice there size above their head to heal them is something to behold, or witnessing a person speak fluently in a language they do not know.
" Is there astral work(with full body projection)?"
It is not widely practiced, but yes, if the knowledge of astral projection exists within a house, an initiate will be taught how to "fly" when it is appropriate.
Success with the spirit is gauged by the initiates ability to manifest results with the spirit. There are those that can heal disease such as cancer and many sorts of other forms of thaumaturgy.
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@Macsen Melinydd said
"93.
Hmmmm.
I've a few experiences down the roads of this thread.
When I first entered into occult considerations, I was too young for proper initiation, but still I remained submerged in the content, dedicated to it. I was cock-sure too. I found in reading the books of those before me that it was bits and pieces from all over that resonated with me, not one nexus over another. Conglomerate rock. So, in order to simplify the whole thing and discover what was uniquely for me, I decided to employ the above-discussed principle of "passive spirit"(as understood within Golden Dawn terminology) and let what bothers to come through go ahead and come through. I trusted in my own integrity to be able to resist what I needed to. The motto I took for this period of time was Frater Diluvium, Latin for "brother of the flood"(Hebrew gematria: 1172, English: 666, Simple: 111).
This put me through a whirlwind and taught me the definition of bottom, but in the process I learned a very practical kind of magick, a grasp on inner workings born in survival, in the Black Earth, rather than in synthetic effort. I encourage the practice of testing oneself in this way, as long as it is born of that intent. It gets ugly when you approach these manifestations as equals.
Contacting very specific ancestors is a different story(whether they be thought-forms, cognate spirits, genetic memories, whatever you want to call them). About seven or eight months ago I had a dream of being in a grove, a clearing in a forest, in which was built small huts with thatch roofs that were elevated off the ground by a sort of dock system on top of the uneven forest floor. Walking along these docks/walkways, I notice that I am wearing some sort of motley-esque shaman's garb and when I looked up there was a semi-circle of people wearing similar clothes, looking at me as if they knew me. After a second I realized that I 'knew' them too, and that I 'knew' the surrounding forest like the back of my hand. I suddenly felt the most profound sense of spiritual home and rest there, and awoke in that feeling.
After stewing on it for a bit, I found out where the grove was. Wales, before Rome, and the Saxons, and Normans... The thatching and walkways gave it away, and the colors. I saw my brother playing a historically-based video game partly set there and there they were. This aroused an interest in that place, which I hardly recognized as an entity separate from England. I discovered its unique language, culture, myths, music... In having my mother listen to some Welsh-language music, she was reminded of when she was young and her grandmother(my great grandmother) came to visit shortly before her own death. She couldn't afford to raise my grandfather when he was born so she gave him to a neighbor and he was raised thinking his own mother was the "nice neighbor lady", but revealed herself once she knew her death was near, sparking the visit. She came all the way from the UK to Michigan. While she was here, she would trail off the longer she would speak into some "incomprehensible" language and have to be shaken back to English. Upon hearing the music she realized it was Welsh she was speaking.
So now, the dream comes full circle. Turns out I was dreaming of being in Wales due to being, y'know, Welsh. Didn't even know it was something to be until after the dream. This sparked me into really diving into the Mabinogi, getting a teacher for it out of Bangor even, and engaging the place on a spiritual level. I see my work with this as a practice in honoring the past, exploring the roots of myself, and setting foundations for the future that are informed by the movements of what came before it. It's a matter of momentum. I feel that the flavors of one's True Will are largely influenced by ancestry and that a Thelemite can gain much from exploring a spiritual relationship with their genetic past. Without becoming a bigot regarding other genetic streams, of course...
93, 93/93."
Excellent post! Thank You for sharing such a personal experience.
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@HounganRocky said
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Excellent post! Thank You for sharing such a personal experience.
"I was hoping to illustrate that Voodoo isn't the only tradition per se that garners these kinds of experiences, one can use "Voodoo"(I call it passive spirit) to open up to the spiritual nexus of anywhere anywhen and extract information, if one employs some creativity.
It was a good topic to start and I appreciate your cordiality and willingness to share information.
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I was hoping to illustrate that Voodoo isn't the only tradition per se that garners these kinds of experiences, one can use "Voodoo"(I call it passive spirit) to open up to the spiritual nexus of anywhere anywhen and extract information, if one employs some creativity.
It was a good topic to start and I appreciate your cordiality and willingness to share information."
I don't believe I ever implied that Voodoo is the only tradition, I did intend to emphasize that the tradition is largely found in African Tradition Religions practiced in diaspora.
Voodoo is not "passive spirit." The word Voodoo (roughly) translates to: Word and Force. It is more akin to the word Kabbalah than anything else. Just for clarification.
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@HounganRocky said
"I don't believe I ever implied that Voodoo is the only tradition, I did intend to emphasize that the tradition is largely found in African Tradition Religions practiced in diaspora. "
Oh, I didn't think you did, just offering a different angle of approach for the sake of color
@HounganRocky said
"Voodoo is not "passive spirit." The word Voodoo (roughly) translates to: Word and Force. It is more akin to the word Kabbalah than anything else. Just for clarification."
That is etymology I didn't know, thank you. I likened it to passive spirit in the sense of the willingness present to open up to possession by a trusted source. I admit that my understanding of Voodoo is superficial, formed from a distance to the actual traditional core(which actually just contributes to my enjoyment of the thread
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No offense taken! I simply wish to clear the air of misconceptions of Voodoo, and generate understanding and relativity.
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I should clarify to the lurkers and readers:
The viewpoints I express come largely from the way I was taught and the traditions I uphold. An internet search will provide a plethora of conflicting information and misinformation. I do not claim that the opinions I give are upheld by all, but I can say that within the house and Society I belong to they are the norm. Within the political climate of Voodoo there is great deal of Us vs Them mentality. I don't seek to build bridges between different houses or Societies, merely dispense what I consider to be useful information to bring light into an obscured realm.
I socialize with many people from various diasporic traditions and the views expressed often include what I have found to be universal in the African Tradition Religions practiced in diaspora.
Please understand that I am technically a "foreigner" that was "reclaimed" by the Lwa. I hold a particular degree of initiation within my house, and I am recognized by various priest/esses of different ATRs.
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Would you say spirits of the "dead" tend to be easier to visibly evoke than demons and elementals, or about the same, or harder? (all things else being equal as possible)
Does it tend to be easier achieving quality inner communication with them according to their spiritual development(the higher the easier?) or more significatively according to how they relate to our true will at a particular moment, or maybe "random"?
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It's very easy to evoke the dead to visible appearance.
Everyone develops differently. All i can suggest is to try to implement the suggested practice. If you would like something that should yield immediate results PM me.
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Thanks man ! I will.
As far as you know, is music and dancing an important part of the style, like for instance yoga is an important part of AA, or is it rather a separate art? Those moungongo and berimbau seem very good for inducing or enhancing spritual states. I once was initiated to african dance, it seems to have strong effects on the chakras and the physical body.
Now it makes me think about the capoeira, that african martial art. I can see esoteric symbolism into it. It seems based a lot on balancing the above and the below(making the upper body very strong and the legs very agile and flexible) and on generating power from rotation, spinning, and level changes, like the continuous motions of the stars that spin and rotate, and seem to change levels as we change point of vue. They use berimbau and drums too, so the rythm is also an important part.
Maybe those guys who created the art were initiated into voodoo.
Do you have voodoo equivalent systems of alchemical "scales" like 3 principles, 5 elements, 7 chakras, 10 sephiroth, 12 signs, 22 paths...?
And sorry for the slight off topic but if anyone knows about oceania's magick feel free to share. As i asked for information on african magick on a non related topic just before you came, it might work the same again !
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I attended one ritual where we were to call upon our ancestors to dance with us. Thinking of the people I knew personally, my parents and grandparents, who were Christian and inhibited about dancing, this felt ridiculous.
So I tried to imagine my ancestors going way back to pre-Christian Europe.Contacting my immediate ancestors would take something more suited to them.
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One little thing you may like to think about, which has been very helpful to me and several friend who had difficult personalities for relatives.....
We often think of our ancestors as being the age the age they were when they passed on, or simply an adult. Yet all ancestors were children once, innocent little beings filled with spirit, freedom, curiosity and openness.
Have you ever danced with a five year old? Even a ten year old is still free enough to get down and let the music move them.
Connect with the child aspect of the relative first and then build your relationship from there.
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@AliceKnewI said
"I attended one ritual where we were to call upon our ancestors to dance with us. Thinking of the people I knew personally, my parents and grandparents, who were Christian and inhibited about dancing, this felt ridiculous.
So I tried to imagine my ancestors going way back to pre-Christian Europe.Contacting my immediate ancestors would take something more suited to them."
Although most "mediums" who hold those types of "seances" really don't know how to induce possession. More than likely they learned the technique from a family tradition. Although dance may lower the inhibitors that induce possession, most people in the modern world have so many inhibitors dance may not be enough to allow for possession. There are very specific dances that are meant to open the spiritual channels of the body, but those take time to learn and still are 100% fool proof.
Your ancestors "dance" all spirits move and have behavior that deals with their class and "order." The Dead dance, especially when they are agitated or have a message to give. The ancestors (for the most part) are part of your Nephesh and they have a more primal and sexual nature, most of the time they will gyrate there hips in a sexual way (even if they were inhibited in life!). My grandfather was a military man, very uptight, and yet, when he shows up he is telling jokes smiling and very "loose."
Some sources on the internet will say that you should find a way that is suited to your ancestors, and to that I have to say: bunk. Ancestral veneration was a strongly maintained tradition in the Caribbean, and to tell the truth, most black who come from those traditions don't want to share their knowledge with white people. I know that fact firsthand, being a white houngan and all. (Luckily, I'm not out for acceptance. lol)
But back on track: Try the methods I've outlined at the beginning of this thread and see for yourself. See how you feel after doing service for a while. Keep a record like any other magical act and ask yourself if you are seeing more positive outcomes in your life. Watch your dreams. Are you sleeping better? More rested when you wake? Your meditations should become deeper as you progress, and your intuition should improve as well.
A little light and libation goes a long way.