I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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That may or may not currently be the case. I don't thinking stepping into the Abyss before knowing the Angel necessarily means one cannot still find the Angel. It's active rejection that counts, I think. Messier though.
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Legis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I seem at loss how to answer you… I keep formulating answers based upon what already has been told; simply to have them erased... I kind of feel that I have poured so much of myself out in this thread, leaving me with the feeling that I don’t have much more to say…
@Legis said
"what spiritual metaphors you are working under? - how either of those have evolved over time if they have?"
The only metaphor that comes to mind is BABALON – awaiting the beloved. But then I am really not awaiting anything since I feel very far away from crossing any abyss. I don’t care, I don’t “actively” think about metaphors or anything special at all anymore… I used them in my post trying to making myself understood. The only thing I’m occupied with at the moment is “watching” myself… Just living the simple life of a beggar. I have been homeless for awhile sleeping beneath a bridge, but now I’m more comfortable staying at the place of a woman.
She is a good soul and the perfect master, having no interest in spiritual matters, constantly testing me with her chaotic nature and doing things the opposite way to that of my own… “Nagging” about “this and that”; thus creating a good atmosphere for meditation!
@Legis said
"what spiritual metaphors you are working under? - how either of those have evolved over time if they have? - how you intend to judge yourself done?"
I don’t know how to judge myself done – after facing Choronzon? (I am in no way ready for that at the moment!). But I expect the whole process to take many years. Life long habits and reactions has to be overcome, not to mention all those sub-personalities: “The teacher”, “the politician, “the clown” etc. The whole crowd of voices within screaming “I am I” has to be dealt with. Eventually it all will sort itself out (by itself!)…
I can see myself “changing” and I seem to get more and more tuned into the mindset of not trying to reach anywhere, there is not something to be “over with” – no goal to reach. I simply have to forget about knowledge, metaphors, the path, grades and initiation and just “live”… and have myself staying in the present moment. There is “suffering” in the desire of wanting to go somewhere, wanting to achieve something, so naturally I’m slowly dropping the whole idea of the abyss, union with god, reaching anywhere etc. Instead I’m focusing on the little things, eating, taking a shower, a walk, reading the books of OSHO, just watching myself in all of life’s situations, just living…
I have already gotten a first glimpse of the inner peace and silence as a consequence of my prayers last year. I have seen the light… Sometimes it’s there, sometimes it’s not. Most of the time it’s not… But I have seen the essence of myself, now what is there to achieve? What can I improve on that inner essence? Nothing! There is nothing to attain nor to achieve.
I can only let mine star shine forth. I can only let it happen by dropping the dark veils of ignorance, and so by “letting it happen by itself”… Because it’s not an achievement, it’s not a try, it’s not a going – it’s an constant flux between a “letting go” and a “letting in” – a letting go of myself and letting in of the Lord. My work is done, I am finished, all my strife, all my hardships are over, there is nothing more for me to do, but letting go and letting in… Wu wei!
And thanks to my involvement here once again I had an understanding during these last 24 hours, and it tells me that it doesn’t matter if I make every wrong there is in the book… It doesn’t matter at all, because those wrongs are due to my own involvement in the process, the wrongs are a consequence of the “tension” created by the mind itself; when losing my “watchfulness”. Now how to make a “wrong” becoming a “right” by getting rid of the cause called “tension”? Relaxing… Simply relaxing… That’s my only job here relaxing… and letting things happen by themselves… How great isn’t this promise of God? Telling me just to relax and enjoy? It’s not what one expected huh? Going through life trying so hard.
I can’t fail… Jim is here, you are here, Kasper is here
, everybody is here on these forums. I am in the company of saints. How on earth am I ever going to fail while being in the presence of the most high? Every time I come here and expose myself and my problems, I am helped… I know where to go if I will once again feel frustrated and lost…Let us relax a little.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Legis said
"That may or may not currently be the case. I don't thinking stepping into the Abyss before knowing the Angel necessarily means one cannot still find the Angel. It's active rejection that counts, I think. Messier though."
(Acknowledging that there's always room in the universe for an exception to show its face...)
I disagree (with what I think you meant at least). It is the K&C of the HGA that provides the momentum (that's the metaphor routinely used) sufficient to cross. One can certainly slip off the banks into unrecoverable depths...
Of course, a thousand lifetimes later (just to pick a convenient number), one can give it another go.
Angel first. It's the context in which the Abyss exists and is there to cross.
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Well, I'd appreciate your thoughts.
"There are three ordeals in one..."
First assumption: I'm taking these three ordeals to be the ordeals of the grades, the final one being the true ordeal of the Abyss. Don't know if I'm right about this or not.
Second assumption: I'm thinking of the "in one" as meaning that each of the three ordeals share an underlying similarity of ordeal manifesting itself in three different areas of the aspirant's totality.
Truly, the ordeal of the Abyss is the final ordeal. However, from the perspective of the untrained and unfocused-on-stage, they've just stepped off into the unknown of the "one" fundamental ordeal without the bearings of the three developmental stages-approach.
In this manner, it is still true that the Abyss is the final stage ordeal, but for the one without such bearings, the "one" fundamental ordeal can be ...questioned(?)... in three different ways, sometimes involving the questions of the truly final ordeal (in terms of stages). In this understanding, it is not the true ordeal of the Abyss, but the experience can manifest itself with those qualities, following the investigation of the aspirant.
From their perspective, it may as well be the Abyss and may seem to fully share its qualities. But since it's not fully in actuality due to the lack of progress through the appropriate stages, there is still the possibility to focus the completely jumbled ordeal to its most proper developmental stage.
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@Legis said
"In this manner, it is still true that the Abyss is the final stage ordeal"
On this we agree.
On the rest, it just seems like intellectualizing.
PS - Almost as a digression, and certainly as opinion... I do think the three ordeals are, in one sense, the ordeals of the grade, though only incidentally. I think, at root, the first is an ordeal experienced in Nefesh, the second in Ruach, and the third in N'shamah. They are the same ordeal, but experienced differently because each aspect of consciousness operates differently. They're all going on all the time... but you have to be 'awake' (to some extent) in each aspect of mind to register them, i.e., one must be awake in N'shamah before the third ordeal is "visible."
Back to the thread: In terms of the subjects of the thread, the only subject is THE "experience of the Abyss" (to use the title). This (the topic of the thread) is the context in which I gave my earlier answer.
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Intellectualizing, yes. In an attempt to translate from the world of order into the world of someone's personal experience of the phenomena. This discussion is part of that.
All that to say to anyone truly lost in the Abyss, how can you Will to Love Her until you know your own Will-Self? -Her Lover? How can you know your own Will-Self until? And thus the order of the grade stages and their symbolism makes logical sense.
But to someone truly lost, knowing the basic order is key. It creates a checklist and a compass, at least.
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@kasper81 said
"Jim how do you explain Nietzsche messing up his crossing? In fact how did he even get, "near" the Abyss as he never did any magick or yoga?"
I have to go back one of these days and study earlier elements of his life. (It's been 40 years since my main Nietzsche period). Without doing that, I can't give you a good answer.
It seems clear, though, that at the time of his slipping off the banks he had severed any link he ever had to intimate connection to the Divine.
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"This is interesting, I once heard someone say Anton LaVey kept a "deal with the devil" in a locked chest, they were speculating it was an A.'.A.'. Neophyte Oath."
The Neophyte Oath: the wickedest oath in the world
Insane pêople are insane.
@mark0987 said
"I believe the A.'.A.'. could speed things up a bit i.e. doing the work seems to stir the pot so to speak.....but for some people their pots have already been stirred too much."
Interesting. Could you share some ideas? Some key points you would modify if you were to create an order from an AA basis?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Legis said
"That may or may not currently be the case. I don't thinking stepping into the Abyss before knowing the Angel necessarily means one cannot still find the Angel. It's active rejection that counts, I think. Messier though."(Acknowledging that there's always room in the universe for an exception to show its face...)
I disagree (with what I think you meant at least). It is the K&C of the HGA that provides the momentum (that's the metaphor routinely used) sufficient to cross. One can certainly slip off the banks into unrecoverable depths...
Of course, a thousand lifetimes later (just to pick a convenient number), one can give it another go.
Angel first. It's the context in which the Abyss exists and is there to cross."
Could it be less exceptional to face briatic ordeal before the yetziratic one? Or to face both at the same time? Thus it could be experienced even more abyss-like than regular Path of Tav or Tiphareth crisis?
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It's a matter of gaining access to Briatic consciousness. That's a different step.
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Here's a link to an older discussion about Briatic consciousness:
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
It took me 9 months of struggle finally to understand what meditation really is about. It took me over a thousand hours trying to figure out how to do it… Only to understand that it’s not an “action” nor a “doing”, but a:
Letting it happen by itself…
To say that one can set out to meditate is simply wrong. The very expression implies a “doer” or a “going” – accompanied by “ambition” and “lust for result”. The meditative state of mind is a state of no-mind: egoless and thus absent of any “doer”.
There is no one there…
I have during the past months read this in books by OSHO, J. KRISHNAMURTI etc. “over and over again” not understanding what it really meant, until now. It took me 9 months understanding the ridiculous simplicity, behind meditation… There is no trying, no doing, no action, no effort, no ambition, no going, no nothing! The meditative state of mind can only be reached through relaxing into it…
I have slipped into meditation many times during these months without really understanding it… The first time happened immediately when I felt like staying quiet after the “prayers of gratitude” just carelessly observing myself. But I didn’t understand what it was that I was doing… How could I know? I had never meditated before! No one had told me about meditation and there I was… suddenly meditating… now I started feeling like doing nothing else but meditating; simply refusing to lose myself in the prayers preceding this new formula of living…
Of course I then lost it… I had found a treasure… but I didn’t understand how to use it… and I started worrying about if it really was “the right thing to do”, “what was it that I was doing?” “How to do it?” Etc. My own ambitious mind started lusting for result again, asking questions like: “Am I doing it right?”invoking the “doer”, trying… and again trying!
“No try” – Mr. Jim Eshelman
Again, one can’t set out to meditate; one can only let the meditative state of mind happen by itself. There is only being; being a “watcher”. It doesn’t matter if one does it the right or the wrong way, because even the “wrongs” (which are really a cause of “tension” caused by ambition and all kinds of worries.) have to sort themselves out by just letting it happen by itself...
Relaxing… being aware… watching effortlessly whatever there is to watch…
The relaxing can’t happen if one doesn’t understand meditation. With understanding there is nothing else but to do than relaxing, “watching”, it seems to be an understanding taking a certain time to develop – or it’s just me… For 9 months I have done nothing else but “caring” about whenever I am doing it “correctly” or not, “how to do it?” But with the arrival of understanding I no longer care at all… I am totally careless… this carelessness even seems to overflow to many other areas of life, due to understanding… What the hell am I to accomplish? I can’t neither improve nor add anything upon that inner essence of mine; I can only let it shine forth by letting it happen by itself… I don’t even care that I often lose “awareness”, during the day, because, the only thing I seem to want to be doing is staying relaxed and watch myself… Awareness is simply destined to keep on growing until “the chicken is ready hatch!” (Legis you asked for a spiritual metaphor. How’s that for an answer; pretty good huh?
)That is if I let it happen… If I am able to let go of everything… I don’t really know what lies ahead of me either… Who cares!?
Understanding can only come through “practice” or “effort”; experiencing… Now I understand why every Master keep nagging that effort is needed before one is ready to surrender… First one tries really hard, then one relaxes… and understands… I also understand why knowledge is nothing but a dead map, and understanding being everything… I have during the past months read everything on how it’s done… I have through all these countless hours of reading learnt everything there is to know about meditation – I had knowledge – but still I couldn't understand how to do it…
The knowledgeable man, lacking the understanding borne out of experience, simply isn’t very cool at all… I was totally ignorant until now.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Legis said
"Here's a link to an older discussion about Briatic consciousness:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11142&view=previous"
Very nice, thanks !
@Faus said
"In a large perspective I would summarize as: to get to Yetsirah shut down the senses, to get to Briah shut down the mind."
That's something i've probably read 50 times in a form or an other but it seems new now.
Maybe it seems new to you as well Hawkheaded Child
Cheers
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So, once one has opened to Briatic consciousness, what is the task of the Abyss? How do you know when you're done?
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@Legis said
"So, once one has opened to Briatic consciousness, what is the task of the Abyss? How do you know when you're done?"
There's no single answer. It's highly individual. But, perhaps, a few things are evident.
The Ordeal of the Abyss has three "gates," corresponding to the developmental stages of Geburah, Chesed, and Da'ath. The Ordeal of the Abyss (per se) is the third, although it is a progressive matter (just as was the HGA relationship, which is wholly evident at Malkuth long in advance of the K&C). The Geburah stage already has nearly every symptom of what people generally expect for the Ordeal of the Abyss in much the same way that a 21-year-old finds it nearly impossible to distinguish what he or she is then passing through from what others report of their Saturn return: the markers are the same, but it just isn't the same experience and doesn't have the same result.
So, one thing is clear: You ain't even close if you haven't attained the level of Chesed. That's the first marker: Let the road signs along the highway help you keep track of where you are in the trip.
Many other symptoms are well documented in St. John's Dark Night of the Soul, though that experience has lesser and greater phases. It isn't an exact map, but if you saturate yourself in it you will get the main elements.
After the attainment of the K&C of the HGA, the other adept stages are distinctive steps in the deepening of the intimate relationship with the Angel. 6=5 is a decisive step, practically reversing (turning inside out) the position of the Lesser Adept. 7=4 has distinctive elements of (to pick one way of saying it) "settling in" with the Angel, and the practice of Parabhakti yoga deepen this even further.
In time, certain things become apparent. I wouldn't venture to describe these universally and (if I had a universal list) I wouldn't be inclined to share it because it makes it too easy for the ego to falsify the symptoms.
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"Interesting. Could you share some ideas? Some key points you would modify if you were to create an order from an AA basis?
"
I'd change nothing at all, the training system is completely effective. Whilst to join the A.'.A.'. one has to be of sound body and mind, I would stress that therapy would be a good prerequisite; especially some CBT and some memory regression and dealing with past events- the most important of which probably occurring in childhood.
The 'stirring of the pot' i.e. the bringing about of petty little things which accumulate over time are, as far as I can tell, a part of the path. Doing the practices seems to bring things up which we have to step back and deal with, if we let it consume us we are lost. Whether these things are perceived as physical manifestations which cause annoyance, or just plain psychological symptoms. The latter, if undealt with, could become huge.
I think therapy before work, and during the work would most definitely useful- barring this simply having someone to talk to is helpful. I am too stubborn to see a therapist (again)
, but it would probably help. (That may seem like an odd statement, but it what it is.)So in my opinion the A.'.A.'. is good as it is, we have to take the bad with the good as with all areas of life. I would argue they are a completely natural part of the process of 'attainment'. I would argue life itself can be an initiation particularly if the individual learns to cope with things and along the way reaches consciousness without consciously doing any magickal work. Of course I would also think these cases are rare and hard to identify without knowing the person well.
I say all of the above without professing to contain any more than a tea-cup full of knowledge BTW....
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Before I went to sleep yesterday the realization of meditation seemed to have reached a high degree of crystallization. I now even can’t pretend that I am going to set out to meditate. It just happens by itself… I keep slipping in and out of being “aware” without having any sense of control over it anymore. I said that the only job I now have is staying relaxed and thus letting it happen. But there is no “letting it happen” or “staying relaxed”: It happens by itself and either I am relaxed or I am not relaxed, slipping back and forth without any sort of control.
Everything in my life now seems to happen by itself…
Before, during these 9 months I at least had the feeling that I was occupied with cultivating “awareness”, that I was somehow in control over my own growth. I'm not anymore… Either it grows or it doesn’t grow… all by itself…
I had some trouble sleeping because of this growing realization of not being the cause of anything; it was a little frightening to understand this because out of ignorance I actually had done some planning (!): I said it would take years to reach the other shore. But now I simply don’t know anymore... I am totally clueless! And due to this I found myself thinking thoughts like: “I want more time.”, “Don’t let it happen to fast.”. I also have had more thoughts than I usually have, during these last days. My interpretation is that the mind is perhaps putting it all out there in an effort to stay alive… trying to gain control by having me believing in it… racing…
I also felt that these last months has been some kind of effort trying to stay alive, "clinging", to techniques and books. I thought the same thing about my presence here on these forums; that I am somewhat clinging – simply entertaining myself (there is also a sense of wanting to share.)... But there is no turning back, there is “no trying”, no trying even to “let go”. There is no “letting” it happen… Since, it all happens by itself, anyways! I will therefore “cling” as long as I will cling to these forums and I will let go when I will let go…
I have as much control as those little flowers opening themselves up early in the morning when touched by the very first rays of the sun. It all happens by itself… without any special cause… There is no “because”! Be he damned for a dog!
Someday I suddenly will be gone... It doesn’t matter. I won’t be able to do anything for you muddle-heads here anyways… I am a man of earth lacking the technical jargon necessary to treat the insanity you all are suffering from. Doctor Jim Eshelman on the other hand is well equipped for treating your illnesses (The complexity of your minds). He has treated mine so far with excellent results; he is working on all of us whenever we are aware of it or not. But I have been a tough case; since I’m not very knowledgeable he really had to put some effort in there using simple language as talking to a child, knocking me in the head with sentences like:
@Jim Eshelman said
"*“But there's no need to wrangle and wrestle with it so (unless, of course, y'know, there's something in you that needs to wrangle and wrestle with it right now).
"You just need to move past and find the new formula of connection, your own next step."
"That's very interesting; and gratitude is a feeling of the heart opening."
“no try”*"
My own work on the other hand, will be of some other kind… I have had glimpses back in the days while working with the Angel… From the knowledge that was given to me, it wasn’t very hard imagining in what kind of framework my life is about develop itself within… But it was hard accepting it at the time… terrifying… the responsibility it carries with it still is terrifying…
Oh my Lord! I’m just a 34 year old kid for god’s sake! I can’t take responsibility! I hardly know how to take care of myself!
But I have to help watering the seed of love planted by the prophet so many years ago – from below – a revolution from below! I’ll wash the feet of the criminal, the homeless, the drug addict, the beggar and the prostitute – heavenly trash like myself carrying the world upon our shoulders! What do you guys really think!? That the prophet is going to stay a prophet for a few thousand crazy followers? What kind of prophet would that make him to be? What kind of truth is that? No, someday this crazy beggar will do his best to help him become a world-wide phenomena! All of my life the knowledgeable man (The politician, the scholar and the priest) has driven me mad with his stupidity! All of my life I have had to put up with these fools and their ignorance!
I will do my best to take their power away… I will not be lecturing. I will not be teaching. I will not be aiming for the mind at all! I'll aim below the head "striking them hard & low" – going straight for the hearts of men... (TBOTL is a message of love, not a message for the mind!). As I wrote 3 years ago about my future as a "speaker": “[]… I will not give in before the sky open up and we will see a deluge of tears flowing down from the beautiful cheeks of men.” It will come out of nowhere – from nowhere expected – it will be coming from below!
But “how” cries reason! How does one go for the heart!? Shut up you dog! I don’t know how! I am totally clueless! I don’t care! And I certainly don’t care about the “how”! The only thing I know is that I can’t help myself from doing it! Don’t you see?
It will all happen by itself…
“I” will not even be there to witness it…
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace low
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I'm inclined to my original opinion, yes. I can conceive that it might be the ordeal of Geburah - which, of course, requires that he has attained to Tifereth. However, it most resembles the characteristics of Tav.
I'm willing to be a little agnostic on this.
I think the most important thing is that he's going through hell and asked for some support.
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Kasper,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@kasper81 said
"By the way HHead I know it's annoying people talking about you in your thread so don't be offended."
I'm not at all annoyed; keep making conversation... Don't be afraid.
By the way, Jim's reply to you is really an "mirroring" of your current level of initiation. He won't give you anything above or beyond your own understanding. Where I am at is really none of your concern...Instead of asking questions out of mere "curiosity". You could speed up your own initiation if you started putting yourself on the line more... I'm all-in here man, losing my face, talking about things that really matters to me...
But then if you have nothing to lose it makes it a whole of a lot easier.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@kasper81 said
"When I was in Tav I was in a long series of Hells and Heavens and I deluded that I had somehow advanced through the Abyss. There was some Briatic archetype activity also. In retrospect I think I suffered more than most because, at that time, I had not mastered hour long asana and was doing talisman charging. Maybe this Tav/Abyss delusion is a common occurrence for the ill-equipped neophyte?"
Or even a better-equipped Neophyte; but part of that "better equipped" is having a Superior in the Order who has right perspective. and can lend balanced assistance, confirming the value of such experiences (they ARE something, and do represent a breakthrough - just not the one superficially thought). It's back to Liber O basics: Do not give to any such experience the meaning it first seems to have.
Oh boy, do I remember that time! I remember one day of taking a very large dose of LSD and reading large sections of The Vision & the Voice. The things I saw! The things I understood! And, of course, they all had to do with the process of the Abyss (that's what the book is about). One part of my brain knew that no way in hell was I crossing the Abyss, and another part was totally enraptured with how f'ing much I knew I UNDERSTOOD about it. Again... a little of both was true: I did have some very worthwhile insights and, yeah, I also really didn't know which end of my body my head was inserted into.
"One last point, HHead has become a beggar he says. I have heard this before and I know Binah is the great leveller ; that strips us of all attachments but I don't think that this necessitates dropping all material possessions. I understand that this may be someone's karma at that stage but vows of poverty are all a bit buddhist or old aeon."
One has to be prepared to let go of everything. One doesn't then actually have to let go of everything: but one must be willing for it to happen.