the path to knowledge & conversation
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THELEMA
i have read somewhere (though i now forget where LOL) about the student seeing a vision of his HGA sometime before acually attaining K & C w/ HGA. from what i read crowley experienced this when he received liber AL, yet it wasnt for like another 4 year till he attained K & C w/ HGA.
i was wondering is this in all cases the student sees the HGA before K&C w/ HGA? also if anyone here could give anymore information about this seeing the angel long before K & C w/ HGA like what happens, is it only sight, is it of your physical angel, etc. that would be great!
also would it be possible to mistaken this "sighting" of your HGA with attaining K & C w/ HGA?
thanks
AGAPE
Fr.Bethata
Gunner -
@bethata418 said
"i was wondering is this in all cases the student sees the HGA before K&C w/ HGA? also if anyone here could give anymore information about this seeing the angel long before K & C w/ HGA like what happens, is it only sight, is it of your physical angel, etc. that would be great!"
Yes, there are quite commonly strong experiences of this sort long in advance of what A.'.A.'. means by K&C of the HGA. In fact, "The Vision of Adonai" - by which is meant a vision of the HGA, but which in practice seems, for most people, to be more hearing than seeing - is the traditional mystical experience of Malkuth.
Exact phenomena vary from person to person, but there are some kinds of phenomena that repeat from person to person with considerable regularity.
In fact, because the early experiences are so often auditory, they are often mistaken for "knowledge" and "conversation," taking the words in their everyday sense - and the manifestation can be quite powerful, very fully like an ongoing dialog. This is a long way from the 5=6 experience, where the key is that "knowledge" and "conversation," in their older sense, are synonyms for sexual intercourse. That is, the K&C is about profound intimacy. But even the outer fringes of it can be a big deal. (They also bring a big challenge to the aspirant: To distinguish The Voice from the fantasies of their own autologuing brains.)
"also would it be possible to mistaken this "sighting" of your HGA with attaining K & C w/ HGA?"
Sure. It it's the main mystical experience one has had, then it is likely to be a really big deal.
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THELEMA
cool thanks that really helped answer alot of questions
AGAPE
Fr.418
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THELEMA
i have been lately studying the qabalah very deeply lately, basically i have been looking at the tree and the paths and gematria and and taro/astro correspondences and trying to get a good understanding of each idea that way.
today i finished the path heh (after 3 days of working on it) and began vav, and i got the feeling that vav or the hierophant would be the "vision of Adonai" if looking at the trump cards through the different and growing levels of adepthood.
so would anyone like to comment on this? in that the hierophant would be the "vision of Adonai" if looking at the trump cards as moving through the magickal career?i just thought of this today, so i would truly accept i am way way off the idea of vav/hierophant, but if so please point me in a "righter" direction.
i see vav is 6 which is Tiphereth(yhVh) so i would say vav/hierophant is the HGA. in the card there are the 4 kerubs, meaning to my understanding, that this is a shrine or big event. but of course this card also represents the new aeon of Horus which is A REALLY BIG EVENT. another meaning i thought this was, is that this is a card that is about sex, vav is phallic also at the top is a dove and a serpent, and i think that could be the dove represents both creation of life and emotions through sex and the serpent is the kundalini and lust of sex. also i do understand there are many different levels of this cards meaning, but i think now i may be getting off subject of my question.
so what do you all think, could this be the vision of Adonai, or is that a little far fetched for a meaning of vav/hierophant?
thanks for any and all input on this idea!!!
AGAPEFr.Bethata
Gunner
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@bethata418 said
"...and i got the feeling that vav or the hierophant would be the "vision of Adonai" if looking at the trump cards through the different and growing levels of adepthood.
so would anyone like to comment on this? in that the hierophant would be the "vision of Adonai" if looking at the trump cards as moving through the magical career?"I don't really know what you mean here by "through the different and growing levels of adepthood" and "if looking at the trump cards as moving through the magical career."
You're right on target that The Hierophant is an expression of the HGA in the particular aspect of Inner Teacher. I just don't know what the other phrases you used mean.
"i see vav is 6 which is Tiphereth(yhVh) "
Yes. And it's also 5, as the Trump number. Therefore it expresses the idea that 5=6.
The key to understanding its place in evolution is to know where it falls on the Tree. It is the Path opening from Chesed to Chokmah. As such, it has relevance for the Adeptus Exemptus 7=4 (at Chesed) and is a Path that marks part of the Work in the progress from 8=3 to 9-2 (in Chokmah).
But Vav, as one of the letters of YHVH, has another place on the Tree, and it's right where you placed it: It corresponds to the six Sephiroth below Binah and above Malkuth and, at the center of these, especially corresponds to Tiphereth. This is the same sort of association as that which links Yod to Kether-Chokmah despite the fact that it is the Path opening from Tiphereth to Chesed.
"in the card there are the 4 kerubs, meaning to my understanding, that this is a shrine or big event."
Good catch. Look for where the best guards are - that's where you'll find something worth guarding!
"but of course this card also represents the new aeon of Horus"
Does it? Or (I should rather say), does it represent this any more or less than any other Trump?
"another meaning i thought this was, is that this is a card that is about sex, vav is phallic also at the top is a dove and a serpent, and i think that could be the dove represents both creation of life and emotions through sex and the serpent is the kundalini and lust of sex."
Vav is Taurus. On the one hand, Taurus is the constellation ruled by Venus and with the Moon exalted, so lunar-verneal themes are to be expected. More simply, Vav is Taurus, The Bull, and "bull" is the name of the sexually male part of many mammalian species. In fact, the ancient Egyptian hieroglyph for Taurus was a spraying erect phallus - the word for "bull" and for "phallus" had the same spelling, but different ideograms. (No surprise, since "bull" very nearly means "phallus.")
"so what do you all think, could this be the vision of Adonai, or is that a little far fetched for a meaning of vav/hierophant?"
No, you're on the right track. Personally I wouldn't use that phrase because "The Vision of Adonai" is the name of a very specific mystical experience which occurs at the Malkuth stage of development. Then again, when the fixed (or kerubic) signs of the zodiac are applied to the Elements, we find that the one attributed to the Element of Earth and thus to the Malkuth Grade is Taurus - Vav - The Hierophant.
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THELEMA
"
I don't really know what you mean here by "through the different and growing levels of adepthood" and "if looking at the trump cards as moving through the magical career."see, i was experimenting yesterday with looking at the trump cards as:
0.fool=spiritual wander
1.magus=getting on the path of magick and balencing the 4 elements.
2.preistess=(kinda off on what this means but) being in malkuth/neophyte or initation
3.empress= opening up to your HGA, love for your HGA
4.emporer=lust for K&C w/ HGA
5=heirophant= vision of adonia
6=lovers= K&C w/ HGAbut i havent thouhgt more on it from there. and seeing what you pointed out that vav is of course above tiphareth this would be after K&C w/ HGA or at the least the acual K&C w/ HGA. i currently am working on the intense study of the tree of life, spending many hours focusing on where the sephiroht or now i am getting to the paths, and looking at where they are located on the tree of life, gematria of the sephiroths they touch and paths they touch, and that type of stuff. anyways i havent got past the heirophant yet, so i really dont know where this idea of attainment represented in each trump starting at the fool, will go after the heirophant.
"Does it? Or (I should rather say), does it represent this any more or less than any other Trump?
i was thinking this do to what it says about the card in the book of thoth, about the moving of the heirophant every 2000 years, other things it says in the book of thoth on this card and horus.
thanks for your input!
AGAPE
Fr.418
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@bethata418 said
"i was experimenting yesterday with looking at the trump cards as:
0.fool=spiritual wander
1.magus=getting on the path of magick and balencing the 4 elements."If I understand your reasoning, you mean Key 0 to be the beginning of the Spiritual Path.
In a way this is very accurate, but it is also the end of the Spiritual Path. See, on the Tree of Life, how it is the first path coming 'down' the Tree from Kether, but also the last path going 'up' the Tree from below.
The Fool represents the descent of Spirit into form, but it also represents the 'goal' of Spirit, to return to its origin.
It is this 'return to its origin' that is the Spiritual Path we are drawn to follow. It is our identification with Spirit that makes our individual goal the same as the universal goal, that leads us along the "Path of Return."
Theophiles
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THELEMA
"If I understand your reasoning, you mean Key 0 to be the beginning of the Spiritual Path."
as i said this is more of an idea i was toying around with the other day, but yes you are correct. now to my understanding of magick the fool is the all or AIN which is either :
A. below Malkuth(magician) and in the AA system would be the probationer.
or
B. above the tree altogether, but i think that would also making him a "probationer" but a probationer on a whole different tree above Ipsissimus on our tree.IMHO opinion it just depends on how you look at it. weather he is the above or below the abyss, weather you look at this as the beginning is the fool or the universe, i think looking at it seeing it as the spiritual path you could probably go either way starting with the universe or the sun.
but saying this i haven't tried working it out all the way starting at the fool or the universe, but it looks as it could probably go either way.AGAPE
Fr.418
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@bethata418 said
"
"If I understand your reasoning, you mean Key 0 to be the beginning of the Spiritual Path."as i said this is more of an idea i was toying around with the other day, but yes you are correct."
Toying around is good. We never really learn to own these tools if we don't run with them down a few unexplored roads and generally just find out how the wheels take to the highway. The majority of these roads will be blind alleys and out of the way detours, but that's no reason not to take them - any more than it's "wrong" to take a wrong turn when you're just driving around with no place in particular in mind.
Most will turn out to be wrong turns, but at least, along the way, you're learning a lot about the car
There are valuable senses in which the numerical sequence of the Tarot trumps tells a story in its own right. It is so tempting to take it as the path of initiation since The Fool is such a spectacular symbol (especially in the older decks) of someone first heading out with a knapsack to wander the roads. The Fool is the original galactic hitchhiker, Have Thumb Will Travel (the thumb is associated to Spirit). And one quickly intuits that the others are unfolding from it in sequence. And The Fool usually reminds us of ourselves when we're setting out going no place in particular.
I've certainly tried a few dozen times over the decades to come up with whole new schemas - even multiple initiatory schemes - based on taking the cards in ascending numerical order. (My favorite was a 7-degree system that worked on three simultaneous levels at once, depending on the capacity of the candidate to perceive, so that everybody got according to their capacity. I still think it's a spectacular concept in theory, but it never really went anywhere in practice.)
I think you will find, though, at least ultimately, that the story being told by the numerical sequence 0, I, II, &c. is the story of consciousness coming into being in the first place. That is, it is involutionary, not evolutionary. It's quite valuable to follow out this story if for no other reason than to discover that getting to the point of our incarnation at the end of the 22 steps is seen as a cosmic-scope victory. There are many mysteries behind this that are way outside the scope of this particular thread, including the particular knowledge that evolution is simply a continuation of the initial flow of evolution, rather than a "heading back where you came from." A clue (if you want to pursue that line of thought) is to understand that The Fool (the one card that I think is much better represented in the Waite-Case interpretation, at least for most people) is Zarathustra in Nietzsche's novel. But I digress much...
Tarot was created by design, and the design was to show the path of the evolution of consciousness. This path is found in something close to, but not identical with, the reverse order of the numbers on the cards. The exact sequence is the reverse order of the Hebrew alphabet - Tav, Shin, Resh, Qoph, etc. - climaxing in Aleph. When you reach the point of actually working - walking! - the Tree of Life, this will become completely clear. I know of nothing that teaches it better than a decade or two actively working the A.'.A.'. system.
"now to my understanding of magick the fool is the all or AIN"
This is a reasonable conclusion based on the Zero numerical association. That's the formula you're working right now - where the numbers that matter are those on the cards. That's a blind, btw, but an intentionally instructive one. The far more important numbers are the values of the Hebrew letters attributed to the cards. But the trump numbers weren't designed haphazardly. They provide significant commentary on the underlying numbers. For example, Aleph is 1, but the number 0 of The Fool is an important meditative key to really understanding 1 and displacing the more egocentric interpretations of it. (In essence: Unity, though literally meaning "one-ness," is better expressed by ideas we habitually associate with 0 than with ideas we habitually associate with 1.)
So yes, The Fool is Atu 0 so it's reasonable to associate it with the part of the Tree of Life also numbered 0. On that Tree, though, The Fool isn't zero at all. The Fool, i.e., the Path of Aleph, is the emanation of Kether overflowing into being of Chokmah; or, alternately, Chokmah opening to receive Kether. It is "the fool" because it is the only place "wisdom" has to go in taking its own Next Step.
"AIN which is either :
A. below Malkuth (magician) and in the AA system would be the Probationer."You're still on the Zero idea. That's the only link to Probationer here, right? But be very very careful about defining AIN as "below Malkuth"! True disintegrative magical madness (of the undesirable kind, not the transcendent kind) lies down that road!
"or B. above the tree altogether,"
AIN, yes.
"IMHO opinion it just depends on how you look at it."
Doesn't everything?
On the other hand, Tarot is a precision tool. One needs to be open to be instructed by it and led down numerous pathways, but there is nothing airy-fairy or "thinking makes it so" about it as a mapping system. (I avoid the discussion of it as a divination system at moment.)
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THELEMA
thanks for all the wonderful information! before your last post i saw the trump cards as only backwards or forwards, but this opens up a whole new dimention for me to look at it in! thanks!
i hope no body here minds me posting ideas that are just begining to form, i know it should just stay in my magickal diary at least for now but what the hell, i havent heard any complaints yet.
i looked at it just a min ago and said i wonder what could come from reading them backwards, you know from the begining of the tree where i should begin. and here is what i think:
21-universe-the ego is attracted to the solar system
20-aeon-the ego is impregnated
19-the sun-birth
18-the moon- the confusion a baby goes through
17-the star- the motherly love and teaching the baby/child receives
16-the tower- the child while learning makes many falls but grows
15-the devil- the child discovers who he is
14-art- puberty
13-death- he becomes a man (or woman)
12-the hanged man-emotions are discovered
11-lust- virginity is lost
10-fortune- he goes through different relationships with love
9-hermit-he wants to procreate
8-adjustment- he balences his life with his lover
7-chariot-he prepares to create a baby
6-lovers- the union is successful made
5-the initation of one who has created life
4-the emporer-he is a father
3-the empress-she beomes a mother
2-the preistess- she is elevated to heh in yHvh
1-the magus-he becomes Y in Yhvh
0-the fool- the child is born or they become baphomet... ok maybe i am lost at the fool?? or maybe this is the secret of immortality..ok i dont know LOLthis thread though has really expanded my way of looking at the trump cards so, no matter how bad the above is.
AGAPE
FR.Bethata
Gunner -
Just a thought here, G. The way you have listed these is not really "backwards... from the beginning of the Tree" because the order of the numbers isn't the same as the order of the Hebrew letters. Four cards are in a different sequence. Here is the list of the cards, in order, from the bottom of the Tree up:
"21 - The Universe - Tav
(Attain Y'SOD)
20 - The Æon - Shiyn
19 - The Sun - Reysh
(Attaub HOD)
18 - The Moon - Qof
4 - The Emperor - Tzaddiy
16 - The Tower - Peh
(Attain NETZACH)
15 - The Devil - A'ayin
14 - Art - Samekh
13 - Death - Nun
(Attain T'FERETH)
12 - The Hanged Man - Meym
8 - Adjustment - Lamed
(Attain G'VURAH)
10 - Fortune - Kaf
9 - The Hermit - Yod
11 - Lust - Teyth
(Attain CHESED)
7 - The Chariot - Cheyth
6 - The Lovers - Zayin
(Attain BIYNAH)
5 - The Hierophant - Vav
17 - The Star - Heh
3 - The Empress - Daleth
(Attain CHOKMAH)
2 - The Priestess - Gimel
1 - The Magus - Beyth
0 - The Fool - Alef
(Attain KETHER)" -
THELEMA
cool thanks for sharing! but are you saying i should look at this paths as kinda an explanation for the sephiroths? or are you saying something completely different?
if i am not making my self clear, are you saying to understand yesod its better study 20 - The Æon - Shiyn 19 - The Sun - Reysh? and the same for the rest of the sephiroths? and this is to help understand these sephiroths and also it would help understand the paths in a way???
or are you saying something completely differnet or maybe you are say nothign at all. and i am just looking at it it too hard, and very stupidly???
AGAPE
Fr.Bethata
Gunner -
@bethata418 said
"cool thanks for sharing! but are you saying i should look at this paths as kinda an explanation for the sephiroths? or are you saying something completely different?"
Actually, the opposite. Ultimately, there is no understanding of the Paths at all except in terms of their relationship to the Sephiroth. What is Tav? It is the symbol of that mode of consciousness experienced when Malkuth opens itself to receive Yesod. Etc.
The marks I put in the list are simply when one has completed the Paths which have "attained" one of the Sephiroth.
"if i am not making my self clear, are you saying to understand yesod its better study 20 - The Æon - Shiyn 19 - The Sun - Reysh? and the same for the rest of the sephiroths? and this is to help understand these sephiroths and also it would help understand the paths in a way???"
No. That may be so, but it's not what I'm saying. At least, not exactly.
I'm saying two things: (1) To understand Shin, understand it to be Malkuth opening to Hod, even as Resh is the experience of Yesod opening to Hod. (2) Understand that these come in sequence. Only after one has attained to Yesod (by crossing the Path of Tav and stabilizing in Yesod) do the Paths "to" Hod generally open (in the natural and usual development of things). Therefore, to one who has (for example) attained to the 2=9 Grade of Yesod, a substantial part of the Great Work involves working the Paths of Shin and Resh because these are the growths in consciousness which give one access to Hod and integrated it with the aspects (Malkuth and Yesod) already attained.
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THELEMA
thanks for the better understanding of the paths and there relation to the sephiroths! i am suprised i didnt make that connection since i am currently reading your AA book. which by the way is truely truely a wonderful book! i now understand why people are paying up to 1000$ for it, though i almost paid 200$ on ebay but was outbidded, glad i was outbidded:)
so therefore if you are in malkuth, you are not ready for yesod till you fully understand tau,shin,qoph?
"The marks I put in the list are simply when one has completed the Paths which have "attained" one of the Sephiroth"
so thats why attaining K&C w/ HGA is so hard!!! LOL (just joking)
also would it be correct to say try to understand this as like:
1.shin is the blending of malkuth with hod
2.tau the blending of malkuth with yesod
3.qoph the blending of both malkuth with netzach
????like you get the path from mixing the 2 sephiroths connected to the path, or is this not really correct???
thanks for all the info!!
AGAPE
Fr.418
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@bethata418 said
"so therefore if you are in malkuth, you are not ready for yesod till you fully understand tau,shin,qoph?
"
It has always interested me that, in this one spot, all three Paths are given such importance - in a way that they just aren't further up the Tree.The simple answer - to use your language - is that you "aren't ready for Yesod" until you have worked the Path of Tav. That gives direct access.
At the A.'.A.'. level, this is pretty self-evident. The primary task corresponding to Tav is "astral travel," so0-called. It is pretty self-evident how becoming proficient in this raises Malkuth in Assiah to Malkuth in Yetzirah and then bridges to Yesod in Yetzirah - since, in the A.'.A.'. system, all steps along the Middle Pillar are also shifts in the World at which one is working.
Of course, these Sephiroth are worked at different levels. Passing from Malkuth to Yesod in, say, Temple of Thelema is on a whole different (lower) scale. A different task corresponding to the symbolism of Tav (that is, personal growth step) matching the marks that transition.
But there has always been a focus on all three of the Paths opening from Malkuth. In a purist sense, Shin isn't open until one has reached Yesod, and Qoph isn't open until one has reached Hod. However, these three arising from Malkuth are tightly interconnected. For example, they correspond very closely to the three channels of energy arising from the root of the spine. The old Golden Dawn rituals made a big deal out of the three spelling QShTh, qesheth, "bow," as the rainbow arching over the earth as a covenant. This same word is also the Hebrew name for Sagittarius, so it is clearly the set of energies which launches Samekh, that is the natural extension of Tav continuing inward. In A.'.A.'., by comparison, this is the one grade where the non-immediate Paths (in this case Shin and Qoph) are given very specific attention in the Task of the Grade - in this instance, by the Neophyte 1=10 being encouraged to work (but not yet being finally tested) in the Liber HHH and divination practices that are assigned to Shin and Resh respectively.
"also would it be correct to say try to understand this as like:
1.shin is the blending of malkuth with hod
2.tau the blending of malkuth with yesod
3.qoph the blending of both malkuth with netzach
????"Sure, I suppose. But it depends on what you mean by "blending." They don't blend well. There is, for example, a naggingly common tendency for the symbolism of the Path to seem quite antithetical to the energies on either end of it. The supreme patriarchal Tarot image lies between the two feminine planets - The Devil is the path to the bright Sun - a Mars-ruled Path lies between Venus and the Sun, but a Venus-ruled Path lies between Mars and the Sun. And so forth, on and on. There are, in each case, "reasons" for all of this - it totally makes sense when these are seen as energy transitions - but I think the word "blend" would be hard to justify."
Instead, I think the most fruitful avenue is to think of the lower Sephirah as opening itself to receive an influx of the energy or consciousness of the higher one - for example, Shin as the physical body (Malkuth) opening along nerve-channels (Mercury) for energy to flow, or for Tav the physical senses (Malkuth) opening to the direct perception of astral realities behind the wall of the physical senses (Yesod) - which, btw, produces the phenomena that are most evident in the symbols of the card.
That sort of stuff.
"like you get the path from mixing the 2 sephiroths connected to the path, or is this not really correct???"
"
"If it works, I can't think of an objection. I just think "mix" won't be fruitful. You can't "mix" Yesod and Hod and get Resh without a stretch - but you absolutely get the phenomena shown in Resh if you have Yesod opening to what is meant by Hod.
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THELEMA
thanks for all the info this, it really has opened up alot of different doors on the tree of life, and years and years of more work to do on this subject:)
i thought i had did alot of work on the study of the tree of life, and thought i had pretty well got the "basics" (though this is probaly the wrong word) on how the tree of life worked, like how each path got its value in correspondance to the sephiroths and paths around it (like adding and subtacting). and how the sephiroths change etc. etc.
but this has really shown to me, not that i ever doubted it, how infinitely wonderful and complex the tree of life really is!!!thanks!
AGAPEFr.418
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@bethata418 said
"but this has really shown to me, not that i ever doubted it, how infinitely wonderful and complex the tree of life really is!!!"
I painted a Tree of Life with no letters or numbers or Tarot on it, so that one can just gaze at the geometry of it and listen to the deep secrets it tells without words. Check it out in the 'Tools & Toys' section of this forum.
~*~
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THELEMA
speaking of tree of life paintings! does anyone know where to find a dimentional tree??????
also speaking of the 3-d tree, i have heard rumors of an extra unseen path in the 3d tree??? it can only seen if looking at it in 3d??? anyone hearf of this before????
AGAPE
FR.Bethata
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Like 3-D chess from Star Trek, 3-D trees easily excite the imagination.
But they are more games than anything of real doctrinal value. I suggest you put very little value in them.
There are, however, hidden paths - 16 of them - identifiable in the conventional 2-D Tree. These don't become relevant until one is gaining admittence to Geburah, since the lowest of them is the invisible Path between Malkuth and Geburah.
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THELEMA
thanks for the info jim on the 3d tree.
does anyone here know where i can find some pictures on it or anything like that???
AGAPE
Fr.418