Conflicting or Competing Initiations
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Howdy. First post.
I don't expect to have an issue with this very soon, but just for the future...
Without asking anyone to violate any oaths, I wonder about the possibilities of conflicts emerging when simultaneously udertaking two different initiatory regimes. For example, let's say that one starts the alchemical process of a Golden Down type initiatory regime in which one progressively works through the elements and lower sephiroth, but then starts, let's say.... oh, the OTO initiatory regime part way through the elemental/sephirotic regime. Could this screw up or complicate the processes involved in either or both?
Has anyone done this or witnessed it? If so, do you recommend holding off on the one until completing the other?
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Maybe no one here has gone through this and so just can't answer. Or maybe I worded my question poorly. So I'll rephrase the question, hoping to illicite a response. I hope the mods don't consider this an inappropriate question for the forum.
From what I understand, many people have simultaneously worked through the lower grades of the AA and the degrees of the OTO. I assume that the AA work, like that of other magical orders following a similar scheme, produces major transformations and challenges, or even crises, in the magician's life. I have not gone through any OTO initiations (yet), but I assume they have a similarly profound impact. However, they follow a model based on or related to chakras, rather than sephiroth and elements, or so I read (or maybe misread).
Does anyone know if going through both at the same time serves to produce competing challenges or transformations, rather than complimentary ones? Or if they even screw each other up? Or do they operate in different ways, just creating additional challenges, rather than compounded, complimentary, or contradictory ones?
Does either the AA or OTO recommend holding off on starting the initiatory process of the other until after getting through certain grades in order to avoid complications?
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Sasha, I've thought several times about answering this - but it seemed a much better topic to leave open for general discussion (which sometimes can be terminated or shortened once I post an answer! - while the forum is starting to pick up a little steam on actual discussion, I'm trying to back off except where necessary, and let the discussion prevail).
Your question isn't inappropriate at all, and I think is calling for various people's experiences in response. So - for the nonce - I'll still mostly stay out of it for a while, 'k?
@sasha said
"From what I understand, many people have simultaneously worked through the lower grades of the AA and the degrees of the OTO."
Not a fair example. The the gap between those two levels is so extreme that the only way I can see to put that in perspective is that they are working the A.'.A.'. system and happen to be going through O.T.O. concurrently - much in the sense that they happen to be having chicken for dinner. There will be an effect - just as there will be from eating chicken or (in more magical terms) as there would be from any particular magical working an A.'.A.'. initiate would undertake. But (and this I write from personal experience) the outcome is really just that they're in the A.'.A.'.. (It's hard to say if I ever actually got anything from the O.T.O. per se after I reached 1=10 in A.'.A.'. - other than training in political and group process matters. It's much harder to say that for the time I was still a Probationer, when the O.T.O. degrees - 0°-II° in my case - were much more a part of what was going on in my life. But once I took actual initiation in A.'.A.'. - passing to 1=10 - that dramatically changed for me. Again, I think it's a matter of scale.)
A more fair comparison - one with some meat to chew on - is to compare, for example, concurrently passing through O.T.O. and Temple of Thelema degrees. Before we launched T.'.O.'.T.'. 16 years ago, we did a study of the energy mapping sequences in the two and came to the conclusion that there was no outright conflict. (We needed to determine whether to advise people to do only one or the other, and determined this wasn't necessary.) I can't disclose any details of what we did or how it came out without disclosing non-public details of Temple of Thelema's workings, but that was the conclusion we came to.
"I assume that the AA work, like that of other magical orders following a similar scheme, produces major transformations and challenges, or even crises, in the magician's life."
"Karma acceleration" is the term of choice
Yes, A.'.A.'. does this like nothing else I've ever seen. Again, it's a matter of scale. The only thing I've seen that sometimes reaches the Karma acceleration level of A.'.A.'. Probationer is the T.'.O.'.T.'. Portal Degree, and then not only (it depends on the individual and their ripeness)."Does anyone know if going through both at the same time serves to produce competing challenges or transformations, rather than complimentary ones?"
In my experience, life works itself out. The bigger issue, for the two you mentioned, is that the scope or scale is so different. You are really askikng whether auditing an elementary school First Grade class would screw you up while you were enrolled in college. (The usual answer would be that, while you will have certain experiences while hanging out with the first graders, it won't have any particular impact on your college classes unless it takes up too much time - or unless you are training to be a first grade teacher.)
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93,
I can give my 2 cents concerning my personal experience. I am an initate of the T.O.T. and the O.T.O. and the two don't seem to conflict...for the most part. But I will be careful in the timing my next O.T.O initiation. When I took my Minerval's, I was going through a pretty intense time with my T.O.T work and KABAMM!...my life went topsy turvy (oh what a pretty way of putting it!) And looking back I can see it was entirely necessary in the futherence of my True Will.
But in general, I don't think the two conflict and that seems to be the consensus I've heard from others. Probably because they serve different ends. My inner work is done through my T.O.T. work as well as getting me ready for the A.'. A.'. The O.T.O. does not do this for me, rather its a social order and a place for me to meet fellow thelemites. My issue would just be in sceduling it in the "right" time as the O.T.O. initiations do pack a punch. Only your intuition can tell you when is the right time.
93 93/93
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Sasha, I've thought several times about answering this - but it seemed a much better topic to leave open for general discussion (which sometimes can be terminated or shortened once I post an answer! - while the forum is starting to pick up a little steam on actual discussion, I'm trying to back off except where necessary, and let the discussion prevail)."
As a teacher and as someone who has facilitated numerous meetings and organizations, I can very much appreciate doing this. I didn't mean to sound impatient, but, rather, I thought I may have just miscommunicated. So thanks for your reply. You too Marion. I hope others with experience in different orders will chime in later.
Frankly, the repsonses surprised me, but they make sense.
I've wondered about the relationship between the AA and the ToT. From what I can tell from the public info, the ToT basically provides a Thelemic reformulation of the GD. To tie both of these to the AA, I had the impression (or, more acurately, just guessed) that the Neophyte of the AA encompasses the work and alchemy that one would experience throughout the outer order of the GD and, presumably, the ToT. While the GD, on the surface, makes it look like you go through the different sephiroth (and you do), in another sense, you really just keep working on the different elements within Malkuth. Perhaps reflecting the microcosmic/macrocosmic element distinction that Crowley made somewhere or other. I don't know if anyone can actually answer this, because of oaths and such, but I'll take a guess that this distinction between the AA and the ToT or GD may explain the differences in power between the AA, ToT/GD, and OTO initiations.
But I guess I actually expected the OTO initiations to have more power than you two give the impression of them having. But like one of you said, they serve very different purposes.
Like I said, I hope more people will reply, but this has given me lots to think about with regard to the future of my magical work.
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THELEMA
i can only give you my opinion of the OTO initatory system, so sorry if this is only one sided, since i cant give my opinions of other orders initatory experiences since i have not done them:)
but from my expereience with the OTO initaitons (0*-II*) they hit extremely hard on your life, like emotional and financally and changing your life, they (in my experience) make these events happen, and i guess alot of people may not see these ordeals as so much, magickal ordeals. though the grow they cause in most i know is unlike any life changing events, and to be caused by a initation ritual, i would call that magickal
AGAPE
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"But I guess I actually expected the OTO initiations to have more power than you two give the impression of them having. But like one of you said, they serve very different purposes."
Just to clarify exactly what I meant...I don't mean to give the impression that the O.T.O. initiations are mild in any way. I actually think they are very powerful.
However, the O.T.O is a social and political organization. Any inner work is entirely up to the individual. A person could hypothetically, go up through quite a few degrees within the O.T.O. system without going through much inner Work. I personally know quite a few people who, IMO, fall into this catagory. Originally I felt pretty bitter about this...I felt if a person was say, oh, a fifth degree, well then they should act it. When I got clear on the O.T.O.'s actual purpose, I then could "get over it."
You did not state this but if there is any question in your mind about whether you should do O.T.O. or A.'.A.'. , my vote is for A.'.A.'. That's where the real juice is!
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@sasha said
"I've wondered about the relationship between the AA and the ToT. From what I can tell from the public info, the ToT basically provides a Thelemic reformulation of the GD. To tie both of these to the AA, I had the impression (or, more acurately, just guessed) that the Neophyte of the AA encompasses the work and alchemy that one would experience throughout the outer order of the GD and, presumably, the ToT. While the GD, on the surface, makes it look like you go through the different sephiroth (and you do), in another sense, you really just keep working on the different elements within Malkuth."
That's one way of looking at it - Another way is to apply the Four Worlds model, which over time has become exceedingly useful to me. The G.D. model does work the designated Sephiroth, but only in Assiah. (Others would say "in Malkuth," as the rituals themselves say - and usually the people using the different terminology would mean the same thing.)
Admission to the Second Order then formally commences working at the level of Yetzirah, and the same Sephiroth are reworked at a higher level.
As to a degree-by-grade mapping: If we were starting from scratch, and creating something solely from theory to translate the A.'.A.'. levels into a G.D. model, it would likely sound just like you described. The A.'.A.'. 1=10 uses the initiation formula and the elemental system of the First Order of the G.D., even though the work done is that historically reserved to the G.D. Second Order. The A.'.A.'. 2=9 uses an initiation ceremony derived from the G.D. 5=6.
But to get a T.'.O.'.T.'. to A.'.A.'. degree-by-grade relationship, you need info on the history of it all. Temple of Thelema was originally conceived as a preliminary stage to the A.'.A.'. Probationer. For many years, Soror Meral and I were looking at different ways to prepare people for A.'.A.'. levels of work, and there were no existing ways that appealed to those with a strong fondness for ceremony. So, the initial theory was that we'd to a G.D.-type system as one variant of the Student phase and, when someone had finished it, they would be ready to start as 0=0 in A.'.A.'..
Well, T.'.O.'.T.'. took off with a life of its own, and became much more than just a ritualized Student program. But one of the core principles we stuck with from the beginning is to do nothing whatsoever in Temple of Thelema to interfere with or preempt even the 0=0 Probationer process in A.'.A.'..
To the extent that there is an equivalent, I would say that substages of the 5º (Adeptus) are equivalent to the A.'.A.'. 0=0 and 1=10 grades, and it goes on from there. But a First Order T.'.O.'.T.'. member may be doing much higher level and more sophisticated work than many a Probationer because it is a structured curriculum whereas the Probationer is finding his or her own way for the most part. (That's one of primary development steps for the Probationer.) The real key of comparison of working level is, again, the Four Worlds.
In A.'.A.'., much of the 1=10 work is about opening up access to Yetzirah, and then 2=9 through 4=7 are specifically working in Yetzirah and building "organs" or bridges toward Briah. (This comes to a head in Dominus Liminis, which ripens the Yetziratic level and has the main task of opening Briatic consciousness.) A.'.A.'. 5=6 through 7=4 work in Briah.
In contrast, T.'.O.'.T.'.'s Second Order is the Yetziratic level, and the opening of Briatic consciousness constitutes the 8º.
So, for example, the T.'.O.'.T.'. 6º and A.'.A.'. 6=5 Grade are both Geburan degrees/grades. However, A.'.A.'. 6=5 is at the level of Geburah in Briah, whereas T.'.O.'.T.'. 6º is Geburah in Yetzirah (which, frankly, is a lot more challenging! - Geburah is far easier to navigate after the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel).
Does that help?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"So, for example, the T.'.O.'.T.'. 6º and A.'.A.'. 6=5 Grade are both Geburan degrees/grades. However, A.'.A.'. 6=5 is at the level of Geburah in Briah, whereas T.'.O.'.T.'. 6º is Geburah in Yetzirah (which, frankly, is a lot more challenging! - Geburah is far easier to navigate after the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel)."
Geburah of Yetzirah is far more challenging than Geburah of Briah?
By saying that Geburah is easier to deal with after KC of the HGA, do you intend to relate the K and C to one of the four worlds?
I haven't yet had that experience, so I can only speak theoretically, but I always saw the K and C as outside of the system in some ways. The GD never incorporated it into the curriculum or initiatory process in any way, though many GD folk certainly work with this. Of course, the AA included it as central. But anyway, I have trouble figuring out how the K and C could fit into the 4 worlds.
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@sasha said
"Geburah of Yetzirah is far more challenging than Geburah of Briah?"
Yes. Mars in an emotional-reactive-personality context is much harder to deal with than Mars in Briatic consciousness.
"By saying that Geburah is easier to deal with after KC of the HGA, do you intend to relate the K and C to one of the four worlds?"
Close, yes. Briatic consciousness doesn't, per se, include K&C, but is an immediate prerequisite. One might say (to switch to a symbolic form, since I just saw Parsifal at the LA Opera tonight) that the K&C is the interpenetration of the lance into the grail formed by Briatic consciousness.
"I haven't yet had that experience, so I can only speak theoretically, but I always saw the K and C as outside of the system in some ways."
I wouldn't agree with that at all. It is the entirety of the system. (In case it's not clear, I'm only speaking of A.'.A.'. here.)
"The GD never incorporated it into the curriculum or initiatory process in any way, though many GD folk certainly work with this."
During the existence of the Golden Dawn (which ended in 1900), no member ever attained to the K&C of the HGA, so far as any existing records show - unless it was Florence Farr. The grade levels people were actually working were usually no higher than A.'.A.'. 1=10 equivalent, somewhat overlapping with 2=9.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,
@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes. Mars in an emotional-reactive-personality context is much harder to deal with than Mars in Briatic consciousness."
It's interesting to hear it put in that particular way, having mixed systems for years. 'The fourth way' started by George Gurdjieff concentrates a great deal on working Geburah before the K & C. The work, however, is so intense that it is designed to acomplish waking up the HGA.
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Well, I didn't say it wasn't valuable! Just that it's hard.
In the A.'.A.'. scale of things, note that the Path of Peh is kind of the same thing - the Mars ray worked in the field of Yetzirah (below Tiphereth). Your description sounds a great deal like that, in fact.
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@Redd Fezz said
"...but aren't formal inititiations just sort of a "formality," anyway?"
In my experience, a definite No (except, of course, by semantics <g>).
First, as a rule 'formal' initiations pretty much always trigger an energized shift within which is reflected by often dramatic rearrangement of external circumstances.
Second, the passing into the Initiation stage (in contrast to, say, the Fellowship stage) marks a distinctive spiritual maturation level - a line drawn in the astral sands, so to speak, as distinctive as (say) puberty.
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@Redd Fezz said
"I haven't taken any formal initiations, but aren't formal inititiations just sort of a "formality," anyway?"
Remember that formal initiations, by which I assume you mean physical ritual initiations and probably in a group context, involve magic. The groups does a magical ritual. They don't just dress up for fun to simply induct you into a group. If the ritual only produces a formality, then they didn't do very good magic. Simillarly, any self-initiation ritual involves magic. And like all other magic, it should produce results. And, in my experience, very powerful results. Don't accept initiation lightly. Be prepared to get down to work and to have your life blown open.
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Jim posted some excellent clarifications of the relationships and comparisons between the AA and the ToT. However, I would like some more specific (and much simpler) clarifications that I know some of you can answer.
Based on what I have read at the College of Thelema site, I see the relationship between CoT, ToT, and this particular AA lineage as the following:
College of Thelema: Provides 4 60 hour-courses in psychology, Thelemic philosophy, Qabalah, astrology, and magic. These can fulfill the Student period of the AA, if accepted. But it does not involve group ritual work or a long-term magical curriculum.
Temple of Thelema: Provides a graded initiatory system similar to the GD. This can either fulfill the Student period of the AA or stand on its own.
AA: One can apply to the AA after either completion of either the CoT curriculum or a certain amount of grade work in the ToT. Additionally, one can apply straight to the AA without participation in either the CoT courses or the ToT.
Did I get all of that straight?
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Sasha, I don't see anything there with which I disagree.
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93
this is to redd fezz, you stated you thought the gods may not initate a person if they go through the initation but are not really ready to have been initated.
i know this is not the case, and when i say know i mean i have seen cases of people who probably should have waited to take certain initatory degrees go ahead and take it, and then there lifes more or less fall apart.
the gods as lovely as they are in a way do not care. i mean when you take a initation you are asking the gods to start the ordeals, and if you are not really ready, well everybody loves a good laugh, even the gods (epeccially pan!). this is something you are asking for!
also i personally believe the initations are perfect, and they always work. i think it would be proper to see the initation as like a cooking recipe. if you take noodles and tomato sauce and cheeze and meat and prepare them in a certain way, and cook them for a certain amount of time you will get spegetti, that will give you energy to perform the great work. but lets say the meat is old and hasnt properly took care of, say it has been sat outside for weeks in 90degree weather. if you use this meat to make spegetti do you think you will be able to eat that to help you perform the great work? you will probably end up in the hospital.
you are the meat in the initation, and if you are not properly prepared you will not get what you are wanting out of the initation. even so you will probably still move on with your life, its just the ordeals maybe a little more complicated.
93s
418
PS. this is speaking of the OTO, i would guess other initations also , but i have only been through OTO initations so i can only speak on them.
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@jmiller said
"...the possibilities of conflicts emerging when simultaneously undertaking two different initiatory regimes. ...Could this screw up or complicate the processes involved in either or both?"
truly Thelemic initiations will never conflict with your True Will and therefore if you are sufficiently familiar with that you will never have such a conflict due to the initiation.that said, some cults or organizations will ask you to tie up your will and restrict it as part of their disciplines (and particularly if they are not Thelemic of character). as such this may easily lead to conflicts amongst them. for this reason i have avoided those which i could ascertain weren't Thelemic, might attempt to enslave me or tie up my will to their purpose.
@jmiller said
"Has anyone done this or witnessed it? If so, do you recommend holding off on the one until completing the other?"
I have witnessed attempts both within groups of my involvement and outside in wider esoteric realms which sought (possibly without understanding it), to circumscribe the true will of their initiates.whether for purposes of secrecy or security, it became obvious that the manner by which the initiation was put together, how well some portions (e.g. the oaths) were administered or pre-arranged, they served to pressure, extort, or attempt to enslave the participant. this was at times even an aspect of ostensibly "Thelemic" organizations or orders - their members were insufficiently familiar with the Law of Thelema despite at points being proud of their emblematic badge-flashing. those involved had no knowledge of how to go about preserving the freedom of themselves or their kindred, both ill-preparing and potentially greatly harming the future course of their career and integrity of their fellowship.
now whether waiting would have resolved the matter, would have been helpful, in fact, due to the sometimes life-long commitments involved, is a subject of some complexity. some of these bonds were ostensibly unbreakable, would establish long-term contention and later lead to social breakage and disloyalty, twisted volition; a kind of magical car wreck.
instead i would evaluate what KIND of initiatic frameworks you're talking about, why you want any set of them which may possibly collide, and see how compatible they truly are. try to spot where they may be compatible by looking for those who are like you, have similar aptitudes and interests to your own who have mastered both or are successfully involved with both simultaneously (finding few to none would recommend against the combination). troubleshoot it ahead and avoid possibly unexpected ordeals.