Inferring the 3 Veils of Negative Existence?
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I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
Oh yeah! Thanks, Jim! It seems so obvious now looking at it. Before I was trying to read it from right to left or something. Okay, now that I understand what the diagram means, I can attempt to imagine the implications. I don't think I realized before that the 3 veils represented Atziluth, Briah and Yetzirah.
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I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
Guess I didn't understand the diagram at all, given what JAE said. I thought the whole point was that the distance of Kether to Malkuth appears to be opposites, yet really is part of the whole.
Yes, the veil thing is not correct if you put the unmanifest into the manifest. It doesn't make sense.
Well, I helped JAE get what you were really asking.
Love and L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
93! Redd Fezz
The diagram in your original post is from a specific Jewish Kabbalistic school. I'm out of town at the moment and don't have access to my library. When I return this weekend I'll post some books by a Jewish Kabbalist who has been initiated into this school and has written some excellent books using this particular model.
Love is the law, love under will!
Nick
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I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law!
Redd Fezz, I totally forgot about the promise to post a reference to the original tree of life figure(s) you posted at the beginning of this thread. A friend of mine returned a loaned book tonight which in turn reminded me that I still needed to post a response.
Z'ev ben Shimon Halevi has written a goodly number of books on traditional Jewish Kabbalah. His teachings come from the Toledano Tradition out of medieval Spain. His Kabbalah Society web site is cardinalpublishing.com/newks/index.html. All his published books are listed on the site.
A comment regarding the books I've read of his. There is a tremendous amount of repetition. Of those books I've read I would estimate 30% to 40% of each book is repeated in other volumes. However, they are still worth the read.
Love is the law, love under will
Nick
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I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
93 -
I have a simpler question. I am looking at charts of the Tree of Life, and I notice that some of the charts show the veils in one order, with "nothing" closest to Kether, and other charts show it in the opposite order with "nothing" farthest from Kether.
Are these different traditions?Tree of life veils of naught in the order of nothing, limitless, limitless light:
www.boostyourself.com/img/content/TreeofLifeKabbalah.jpg
www.dedroidify.com/images/treeoflife.gif
images.wikia.com/mystic/images/5/53/Treeoflife.jpgTree of life veils of naught in the order of limitless light, limitless, nothing:
www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/unit8/08104.gifThank you
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I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
I've always thought it was simply different artistic styles.
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I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
So it doesn't matter what order the veils are put in?
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I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
@Tamara_Tornad said
"So it doesn't matter what order the veils are put in?"
It matters which way we understand the veils to be developing - Ain is the furthest removed from Kether - but, as you point out, there hasn't been standardization in the artistic representation.
I've always felt that there was philosophical distortion in the general way these were represented anyway, but "we were doing the best we can." Notice a couple of styles: Put the curves for the veils primarily above Kether (giving the same idea as "Kether above Chokmah and Binah), or draw them as circumscribing the whole Tree. I personally like the latter way better, because (in Thelemic terms) it represents the different gradiants or variations of "Nothing" as being Nuit, from which any particular point becomes a Kether than is the start of a particular 'tree of eternity.'
Note, though, that I just said "variations of 'Nothing.'" I'm not sure that the three Veils are sequential. Sequentiality is an idea that doesn't exist below past Chokmah (it arises from the number 2). There is certainly a logical sequencing, which helps us in our sub-Abyss organization of these ideas; but, from another point of view, the three Veils are three variations on looking at the same "infinite space inherently composed of infinite points but without differentiation of nature or valuation." That is, it is either seen as empty, or as saturated, or as "saturated and note the inherent contours of the Tao."
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I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
Made me think of a color and its hues.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
93 -
Thank you so much. You already replied while I was preparing a drawing to show what I meant. You can see it here. Either link should work.
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I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
@Jim Eshelman said
" There is certainly a logical sequencing, which helps us in our sub-Abyss organization of these ideas; but, from another point of view, the three Veils are three variations on looking at the same "infinite space inherently composed of infinite points but without differentiation of nature or valuation." That is, it is either seen as empty, or as saturated, or as "saturated and note the inherent contours of the Tao.""
I’ve always preferred to look at them as sequential -'ain, 'ain soph, 'ain soph 'aur in that order above/before Kether but as Jim says, the step from “nothing” to “no end” *is *a step of human realisation, not creation; “no end” is an idea always inherent in “nothing”.
I have more difficulty in letting go the idea of sequentiality between ‘ain soph and ‘ain soph ‘aur – “let there be light” ( יְהִי אוֹר ) or its modern expression the Big Bang; the idea that creation of the observable Universe took place at a defined moment, as opposed to Fred Hoyle’s “continuous creation” or "steady-state" theory (is Hoyle’s theory more sympathetic to the image of Nuit?)
Crowley’s Star Sponge vision is relevant here, perhaps; is a “contour” like a “twinkle”, Jim?
The idea of tsimtsum, the contraction of the “infinite light” to a restricted space to allow the emanation of Kether, is tied up with the way I've long thought of these “early” stages of creation, but Jim might see this as a late Lurianic confusion
. Stars born of a gentle female womb/sponge rather than a violent, irruptive (masculine?) Tsimtsum. Heh rather than Tsaddi?Perhaps my physicist friend was being more theologically perceptive than I gave him credit for when he said "infinite nothingness" makes no sense because "without matter there is no measure".
The indigenous people of my own country, for what it's worth, see a definite sequence. Among other characterisations of the pre-creation state, Maori talk of te Kore (nothing); te Kore te Wiawia (the nothingness that is abundant) ki te Whai-ao ( to the glimmer of dawn) ki te Ao-marama (to the bright light of day). I find the parallels intriguing.
OP
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I thought the 3 veils were over Kether. But I just found this: www.byzant.com/kabbalah/veils.a where it says: "In Kabbalism, this problem occurs especially in discussions of the higher sefirot on the Tree of Life, and becomes insurmountable in discussing that which lies beyond or above the Tree. The manifest Tree expressed through the sefirot in the four worlds is as much as can usefully be conveyed to the human mind through language; and beyond this, beyond Kether of Atziluth, are drawn the Three Veils of Negative Existence: en (Nothing), en sof (Limitless Nothing), and en sof or (Limitless Light). (Atziluth itself, and even Briah, are really beyond human conception, their "structure" being hinted at through the tangible expressions of the sefirot in the lower worlds.)"
Someone on another forum explained it to me like this:
Right, the higher worlds are not known, but their nature can be inferred by the manner in which change is observed to occur, and the manner in which events happen or things come into being.
My model expands the convential approach which uses 4 trees for 4 worlds, in ways that I find revelatory. It is difficult to describe, so permit me to provide a diagram:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/7tree4world.jpg
The conception here of the Veils of Negative Existence properly applies only to the Assiatic World, representing the degree to which the higher worlds become progressively less intelligible as they become more remote from the mode in which being is expressed in Assiah.
One of the difficulties I am experiencing with this model involves whether I ought to conceive of orders of Negative Existence rising above Atziluth Of Atziluth (Tree I) and, if I did, what these might in fact represent.
I tend to lean toward the idea of so including them, likening each Tree here numbered I - VII to the seven lower Sephiroth, making those three veils representative of the Supernal spheres of the grand scheme, effectively beyond our ability to meaningfully formulate even as ideas, as they lie beyond Da'ath and the gulf which separates what can be known from the entirity of what Is.
But this is still very much a work in progress, and a conceptual tool for approaching certain ideas in a certain way, and in no wise do I wish to suggest one mistake the map for the territory, much less mistake this for a map when it is really more like the legend down in the corner which explains what all the dots and lines and areas of different colors represent.
I don't understand. But, am wondering if this makes sense to everyone else. If so, I will continue to study the above few paragraphs until I get it or until my brain snaps, whichever comes first.
I have always seen the veil as a representation that the Tree is not a "map" but more of a "map of a map of a map" consisting of the four Trees or Worlds. Which is in turn an infinite loop, starting in 0, ending in 0 (more like.. it all happens in 0).
Though, when examining the ideas normally associated with it..
Thinking of Kether as Light in Extention, the 'first veil' would be Light without Limit.
Kether, in this vien of thought, kind of like 0 approaching infinity (1)
The Limitless Light opening up and extending.Limitless , seen as the purest sense of being, and thus beyond our capability to percieve (as that would require limitation).
The last one I am not even going to talk about. E-gads! Even that simple statement horribly confuddles it.