Qlipoth
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I have a few questions on Qlipoth. For now I am intending to stay as far from them as possible (in a practical sense), however I do have a few questions since some reading took me there.
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I have read that the Qlipoth are reverse or the flip side of the Sephiroth. I have also read that they are a separate tree connected at Malkuth, going below the tree of life, almost like roots. Which is the most common view amoung Thelemites, Crowley, or the TOT specifically?
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If someone is meditating, doing ritual, or otherwise "visiting" a Sepiroth, is it possible to get sucked down into the Qlipothic variant of that Sephiroth? I was reading on the net about someone doing work with YESOD and they experienced terrible nightmares with symbols that resembled the Qlipothic flip side of Yesod.
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Is there a specific time in a person's magick life that they MUST explore the Qlipothic forces in order to advance? Or are they a negative that can always be avoided?
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@DavidH said
"I have read that the Qlipoth are reverse or the flip side of the Sephiroth. I have also read that they are a separate tree connected at Malkuth, going below the tree of life, almost like roots. Which is the most common view amoung Thelemites, Crowley, or the TOT specifically?"
There's no official Thelemic position on this, and AC did nothing to affect the visualization method. - These are simply different visualization methods, i.e., they don't say what something is, just provide a way to think abut it. (I use those two interchangeably as convenient.)
"If someone is meditating, doing ritual, or otherwise "visiting" a Sepiroth, is it possible to get sucked down into the Qlipothic variant of that Sephiroth?"
Potentially - especially to the extent is is unbalanced in you. For example, if meditating on Geburah, you can have your own rage and violence opened up. How deeply this grabs hold of you depends on many factors. In the case of more-or-less psychologically healthy people, the usual preparation for meditation - especially physical relaxation, rhythmic breathing, and other factors which key-out reactivity - are the best prophylaxis.
At a higher level, for more intensive work, i is to protect against this sort of thing that any deep work on the subject is always preceded by invoking the Divine Name ruling over the matter.
"I was reading on the net about someone doing work with YESOD and they experienced terrible nightmares with symbols that resembled the Qlipothic flip side of Yesod."
Obviously the person wasn't prepared by proper initiation, training, and technique, or wasn't psychologically sufficiently stable to undertake whatever work they did. Or, in the alternative, they shouldn't have had the fifth burrito.
"Is there a specific time in a person's magick life that they MUST explore the Qlipothic forces in order to advance? Or are they a negative that can always be avoided?"
In Temple of Thelema, no training or assignments in this are given until Second Order - and not at the first stage in the Second Order. They are not "a negative that can always be avoided" forever. Eventually, one must be able to confront these for oneself and then, by deeper work, eventually contribute to healing them in the mass mind. (I think it likely helps to have lived through the time of working the Paths of A'ayin and Nun.)
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"3) Is there a specific time in a person's magick life that they MUST explore the Qlipothic forces in order to advance? Or are they a negative that can always be avoided?"
Wouldn't this depend on if the adept would aspire to trancend the Abyss? Don't the Qlipothic forces concentrate them selves in Da'ath?
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@phoinix93 said
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"3) Is there a specific time in a person's magick life that they MUST explore the Qlipothic forces in order to advance? Or are they a negative that can always be avoided?"Wouldn't this depend on if the adept would aspire to trancend the Abyss? Don't the Qlipothic forces concentrate them selves in Da'ath?"
No - that's a bullshit Kenneth Grant delusion. It has nothing more to do with crossing the Abyss than it does with numerous other grades.
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Thanks, Jim, for being so candid about Kenneth Grant and his "delusions." I have been trying to get a copy of The Nightside of Eden (for a reasonable price) for some time now, and after speaking with a good friend last week, and reading your post just now, I think I'll give up that quest.
I have been working on a "project" on the Qliphoth for the past couple of months and have devised a couple of rites for that purpose. I want to compare my experiences with others who have done similar workings. For that reason, I am very much interested in finding GOOD books on the subject (if they exist). Do you know of any? Or, perhaps a Liber online?
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
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@Neshamah246 said
"For that reason, I am very much interested in finding GOOD books on the subject (if they exist). Do you know of any? Or, perhaps a Liber online?"
Don't know of any.
If someone has completed most of the work of an A.'.A.'. 1=10 (or equivalent), I can tell them the technical information they need in one or two sentences - but I've never published that because (1) it requires the prior training and experience to understand thoses two secrets correctly and (2) as popular reactions to Nightside of Eden show, totally unprepared are likely to feel drawn to the subject for all the wrong reasons, ill-prepared, and cause a general mess of things for their own psyches and, possiblhy, for people around them. So I'm pretty protective of those two sentences. (Hint: Anyone who has completed the A.'.A.'. 1=10 curriculum stands in a really really good place to figure this out for himself or herself - though I've never seen it in print anywhere, so maybe it's not as obvious as I think.)
Sorry for the obscurity - This is one of the few really delicate subjects in ceremonial magick. Be sure you have very extensive stable astral experience, are comfortable with all of the mechanisms of ceremonial magick, have very extensive experience invoking the Qabalistic hierarchies rooted in the Divine Name, and that you are physically and psychologically healthy and have no gross instabilities stirring up in your psyche at this general time... and then you're probably in good shape to ceremonially access the Q'lippoth.
PS - An unpublished detail: Visiting and reporting on the vision of the Q'lippoth of your Sun-sign was Crowley's final exam for passing from 1=10 to 2=9 - after other astral exams had been passed.
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Thank you for your reply, Jim.
My "project" grew out of my scrying of Nashimiron (I'm a Pisces) and A'abiriron (Libra Ascendant), which I've done several times before (I am 54 years old and have been involved in Ceremonial Magick for over 30 years --- Holy Order of MANS, Theosophy, Rosicrucianism (AMORC), the Golden Dawn, and presently with the Order of the Sons and Daughters of Light --- OSDL). I'm trying to write an account of my own experiences with these "energies," and I thought it might help to read what others had written.
I can understand why Grant's work is "delusional." Since he was attempting to build some sort of Initiatic System out of the Qliphoth (and his so-called "Tunnels of Set") it is easy to see how his Ego grew to cancerous proportions.
Anyway, thanks again for the reply.
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"I can understand why Grant's work is "delusional." Since he was attempting to build some sort of Initiatic System out of the Qliphoth (and his so-called "Tunnels of Set") it is easy to see how his Ego grew to cancerous proportions. "
Now, now! If you are well-versed in the writing of Kenneth Grant and have intimate knowledge of his workl, I might give a nod to your statement, but you obviously are jumping on the 'safety' band wagon which is the chariot leading to the gateway of the Qlippoth as far as I am concerned.
It is best and wisest to know what you suggest than to blindly suggest it.
SEEK WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING.
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LOL !!!
Thank you, King of the Wolves. I agree with your post. After "sleeping on this" last night I decided that I should give Grant a chance to speak for himself.
I am on Chapter 4 of a pdf of Nightside of Eden (that someone kindly gave me) as I write this. All I can say so far is that Mr. Grant has an *unusual *way of expressing himself, and that the way he plays with 'words' in general is unique to say the least.
Ain=Ayin=The Eye=the vagina=the Great Void=the Absence of Light=the True Essence of Light ??????
He makes a few more correspondences, but those are all I can remember without looking back at the text. I'll start a new thread on his book when I finish it -- but give me a couple of days; it is slow going . . .
Well I'm glad I got that cleared up.