Joining the A.'.A.'.
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I believe the relevant distinction is that anyone can access the vast corpus of A.'. A.'. teachings and do a significant portion of the Work of the A.'. A..'. System "on their own". But by joining an A.'.A.'. Linage that directly descends from George Cecil Jones and Aleister Crowley, one also receives a degree of "objectivity", i.e. the person that tests you for the requirements of a particular grade has tested for such by someone who was tested by someone, etc. This ensures a degree of competence.
If you have not been formally tested and passed for a grade by someone who has done the same back to Jones and Crowley, then how can you be sure you have mastered the grade at the appropriate level?
And there is, of course, the matter of the tangible but not not always measurable issue of apostolic succession, i.e. that "something" which is passed on from Initiator to Initiate...
So either you are an Initiate of an A.'.A.'. Lineage or you are not; if you are not, then it is more appropriate and honest to simply state that you practice the A.'.A.'. System of Spiritual Attainment and believe you can help others just getting started...
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I don't actually have to even acknowledge the external order of the A.'.A.'. at all, and can still call by order an external order of the inner A.'.A.'..
that seems to be what you are missing here.
Moses was a magus and thus a teacher of the A.'.A.'. system as was Buddha, Mohamad and the originator of hinduism.
My intent was to create an external shell order, using available texts and sources, and to tend to the congregation of initiates, and to clear a space in the temple, where the Magus of the A.'.A.'. could appear to administer the word of the Aeon. (To deliver a rod with an ark of knowledge to shine as a beacon of righteousness and truth as a flame in the midst of our palaces) Preparing the Cup to receive the word, is the work of the inner order A.'.A.'. is it not?
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You can call it anything you want but if you call it A.'. A.'. you will be causing confusion because the use of these Initials are currently associated with Jones and Crowley's particular manifestation of such...
If your purpose is to deceive the public then this is a great idea; if your purpose is to truly serve those who can use your help then this is not a good idea, in my opinion...
As you Will...
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I think the confusion comes from the fact that Crowley called the true invisible order the A.'.A.'. and a particular external school/lineage of teaching the A.'.A.'. In using the same name, some people (like Froclown here) simply can not grasp that Crowley, in his writings, is writing about two very distinct things. Yes, anyone who has "attained", ie crossed the Abyss, can create an outer vehicle/school for leading others to the true and invisible order, the A.'.A.'. HOWEVER, calling their outer school the A.'.A.'. would be outright fraudulent, if they did not initiate and raise up through one of the valid lineages out there. It would be like opening a church and calling it a Roman Catholic church but not answering to the Pope and partaking in the lineage of Bishops. Yes, you might open a perfectly valid church, but it's not a valid Roman Catholic church.
To answer Scarecrow, there are lineages that can trace themselves back to Crowley. Does a person have to belong to one of these to ascend/work the A.'.A.'. system? I don't think so. Crowley made the teachings available to the public for a reason. However, there is a system to his outer school where one learns being in both the student and the teacher role and I think it would be misleading to oneself to assume that any success with the system that they have automatically correlates to any "grade" within the A.'.A.'.
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I am in general agreement with Froclown, as long as he states where his authority is coming from: the universe. Others can help and focus the universe to initiate, but initiation is still a very intimately personal thing, coinciding with human physical and spiritual evolution. The magickal baton of the Quintessence was not handed down by Crowley and does not exist truly as such. He himself self-initiated into the higher grades, and then formed orders based upon his experience and Will. He acknowledged he had connected with the universe intimately which gave him his authority. He called this one universal magickal order of initiation the A.A.
It doesn't matter to me if you shook hands with Crowley, nor if someone was initiated by him; you can't beat a God into a Dog as it were. Crowley was hard up for initiates his whole life it seems to me, I doubt the quality control that was present myself. I feel anyone working in the Thelemic vein of Crowley, ideally an 8 = 3, has the right to use the name A.A. for their school, to denote their foundational basis in Thelema. It is the Will of others to use the teachings or counsel as they will.
The only authority in the universe is spiritual rank. In the present A.A. structure, Buddha himself couldn't pass the knowledge exams. So what if he didn't know that the Hebrew letter Kaph was associated to Jupiter, this knowledge is obviously not mandatory for enlightenment. Thus the A.A. system grades are to some extent phony or superficial. I self-initiated myself wonderfully, and so have a bias to it. It enabled me to non-attach myself to all the squabble and remain pure to the path. It is unjust to say I have no rank in the universal A.A., when I know full well I do. You can say I have no rank in your system or school which is fine, but then your school must not be representative of the universal A.A. (or contain non-essential elements).
Eventually the A.A. and Thelema will be established, I think along with one central government, but it will always be important to check it from being too dogmatic and narrow, and ensure it is as free and loose as possible to all. The magickal child has the innate authority to unite the many into one, which is what is going to happen. That one will now probably manifest aeonically or at each "Equinox of the Gods", with the primary will to set the law and order aright. I would be interested in how you feel the A.A. Grade structure should be affiliated with government and education, or how it shouldn't be. I'm not for any kind of dominance/submission stuff lol; the A.A. is a spiritual order, even the "slaves" should be tried to made ascend up in evolution. Keeping people down, without due opportunity, does nothing but degenerate things further, rather than progress.
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@Froclown said
"I don't actually have to even acknowledge the external order of the A.'.A.'. at all, and can still call by order an external order of the inner A.'.A.'.. "
As far as I'm aware, you could only do this if you've been contacted by the Secret Chiefs of the Order and instructed to do so. Or as has already been said if you had gone through initiation in a current lineage beyond the point of crossing the abyss.
Why not just start up a group and call it something original?
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@Wizardiaoan said
"
The only authority in the universe is spiritual rank. In the present A.A. structure, Buddha himself couldn't pass the knowledge exams. So what if he didn't know that the Hebrew letter Kaph was associated to Jupiter, this knowledge is obviously not mandatory for enlightenment. Thus the A.A. system grades are to some extent phony or superficial. I self-initiated myself wonderfully, and so have a bias to it. It enabled me to non-attach myself to all the squabble and remain pure to the path. It is unjust to say I have no rank in the universal A.A., when I know full well I do. You can say I have no rank in your system or school which is fine, but then your school must not be representative of the universal A.A. (or contain non-essential elements)."FYI, my particular branch of the A.'.A.'. doesn't follow the traditional grade structure. Yes, in the universal sense of the A.'.A.'., it is based on mystical experiences. In the outer vehicular sense, it is a school and while you may think that the grade work is to some extant phony or superficial, they do work... for some people. There are multiple paths up the same mountain that all get to the same place. That doesn't mean one's work in one school automatically directly translates into a "grade" in another. Crowley took a particular school of thought/training and put a name to it, A.'.A.'. If someone takes that name and applies it to their school, the natural assumption of others is that their school of training/thought is what Crowley put together. If it's not, then why use the same name? It just doesn't make any sense to me. That's also why I say personal initiation into the A.'.A.'. system does work, it does bring about the mystical experiences, but there is a learning process built into the student/teacher relationship that you're skipping/missing out on and so how can you (or better yet, why would you want to) say that you're of a particular grade in a particular school? The only need I see of claiming any particular title would be based in Malkuth.
"Eventually the A.A. and Thelema will be established, I think along with one central government, but it will always be important to check it from being too dogmatic and narrow, and ensure it is as free and loose as possible to all. The magical child has the innate authority to unite the many into one, which is what is going to happen. That one will now probably manifest aeonically or at each "Equinox of the Gods", with the primary will to set the law and order aright. I would be interested in how you feel the A.A. Grade structure should be affiliated with government and education, or how it shouldn't be. I'm not for any kind of dominance/submission stuff lol; the A.A. is a spiritual order, even the "slaves" should be tried to made ascend up in evolution. Keeping people down, without due opportunity, does nothing but degenerate things further, rather than progress."
Politically, I'm all for Democratic Republics. If it is one's will to become a leader in that system, then so be it. If is another's will to be content in the laws created by another, then so be it. Really, I look at Thelema as something personal, even though it is at the same time a current that encompasses more than the person. Any government that allows freedom is good... I don't see the need to specifically model the government off of what one thinks fits Thelema.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Froclown,
If you want to form an Order using the same source material, grade structure, et cetera as the A.'.A.'. and throw in some additional supplemental material, power to you... Do what thou wilt! Your Order may be in service to the universal AA that Crowley wrote about, but it isn't the Ordo A.'.A.'. as such: it's an Order created using the same skeleton.
I'll admit, I did the same, but I know and my students know that our Order is not the A.'.A.'. in any way, shape, or form. As I said, our Order is in service to what we will call the AA, or the Great White Brotherhood, or whatever other name you feel like calling it, but we make no claim to the title of the Astron Argon, because... well... we aren't that body.
"Why not just join the A.'.A.'. itself, in that case?"
Good question. Again, do what thou wilt.
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in LVX,
-M -
Ok maybe I can not claim the Grade of any particular order per-sey
but my understanding is that the only criteria for 8=3 in the A.'.A.'. is to have experienced the crossing of the great abyss. Which based on the descriptions crowley has given for what it is like to have this experience, I feel I have experienced it.
The attainment of this nature I see not as having met some official criteria of the order, of passing and sort of examination of occult knowledge etc. Rather its an experience or state one attains like having an orgasm. You can't see that some one did not ever have an orgasm just because they did not study for 20 years in your particular sex school, nor can you claim they had not attained beyond the grade of virgin just because the person they had sex with was not a member of your club.
However, if one used your orders methods free-lance to attain the result your order claims, ie that a partner will have sex with you to orgasm. Then I should thing you are qualified to teach those methods, as well as your own material, to help others achieve that same result.
(that is if the purpose of the order is to get as many people to experience this result as are capable of it)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"
but my understanding is that the only criteria for 8=3 in the A.'.A.'. is to have experienced the crossing of the great abyss"Uhh... I'm certain Jim will correct me if I'm mistaken, but I cannot believe that is the ONLY requirement for attaining to 8=3. Certainly, it is one of the primary requirements, but there are undoubtedly other very important ones that go along with it. Such as, for example, all the other grade work and preparation that is to be undertaken before it.
In any event, I don't see what 8=3 and Crossing the Abyss have to do with what I posted.
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in LVX,
-M -
Well, as I understand it, the A.'.A.'. functionally serves as a "testing organization" while membership in the Invisible A.'.A.'. is simply more of a state of being.
I don't mean to be an ass, but I have some serious questions about your desire to start an order - about the practical responsibilities entailed...
My first question is why you would have to ask others what they thought about you starting an order if you are being led by Knowledge and Conversation with your HGA? After all, Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law...
And if you are not being led by this Knowledge and Conversation, then what besides this (within yourself) is leading your desire you to do this? Because in calling it an "order" and affiliating it with the A.'.A.'. in some way, you are invoking some pretty strong spiritual impulses in people - impulses that deserve to be respected and treated with holy hands. If your motivations are still rather unconscious, and your knowledge of the entire Work incomplete, then this could ultimately be an extremely dangerous enterprise.
You would also be dealing with all the repressed psychic material that aspirants unknowingly bring to these advancements in consciousness. YOU may have been either psychologically healthy enough (or lucky enough) to touch some pretty high states of consciousness and come back in one piece to a practical life, but in what way does that qualify you to safely and sanely attempt to activate these states of consciousness in others? What training have you had other than your self-admittedly rather limited personal experience? What experience have you had helping others through the temporary imbalances brought about by the art of Adjustment?
In a way, the grade system and the tests of the grade system protect others from listening to those who have not yet learned to balance the energies and states of consciousness on the side pillars of the Tree. Experience in this enables one to understand the processes of transformation that may be much more difficult for others than they were for you.
For example, I used to be a Christian minister. I have had a long and very psychologically challenging journey into the New Aeon. Probably much like you, I spontaneously generated for myself some rather intense and disorienting states of consciousness. For a while, I was completely inflated and was temporarily diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder with paranoid delusions, delusions of grandeur, and minor auditory and visual hallucinations. My occult diagnosis would have been "kundalini syndrome." Reality had seemingly become completely flexible, and I got lost in my own unresolved "God" issues. If it were not for the unconditional love of family and friends, I may well have just continued insanely walking down a certain highway one night most likely to a completely nonsensical death.
What would you have recommended to me if I was one of your students?
I think if it is within you to start an order affiliated with the A.'.A.'., then that's great. But just as it is unethical for doctors or psychologists to practice without proper education and licensing by those who are experienced enough to know the dangers and life-altering power of their practice first hand, I think you should use your desire to start an order as your impetus to earn the credentials and pass the spiritual checkpoints that are required by simple ethics and safety. And until you have, how do you even know if you are qualified?
The question is... do you want it bad enough to do it legitimately and with instruction in leading and safeguarding others against themselves?
Anyway, that's my two.
Your brother in passion if not in agreement,
93
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It makes sense to preserve unity and try to unify under one order if you can, of which I would think Jim's or etc. would be good. This unifies power and communication, and allows greater magick to happen (think of the Egyptians uniting to build the great pyramids, etc.). If you are considering starting a new order, that inspiration should have come from a high source during initiation, and this is very rare to have happen.
This is my view, but this actually happened to me last March during a prominent initiation experience. The end result was to start an esoteric "freemasonry" based upon degrees using the Tarot interwoven with the Tree of Life Grade structure that was basically Thelemic. I am formally enunciating them on the Spring Equinox of 2010, as it is Anno 106. I did have some thoughts of beginning an A.A. previously, but the freemasonry degree structure was entirely unplanned.
My A.A. is named ΑΓΙΟΣ ΑΚΕΦΑΛΟΣ "The Holy Bornless One", which equals 1111 in Greek.
For quite a while this system will be largely self-initiatory, with my writings being its material, which is fine with me. It is really for people who want to take part magickally in the system. It is too different from Crowley's A.A. to adopt the term (and for a long time I have liked the above name best magickally for the A.A). So this is what I mean about referring back to Crowley and Thelema via A.A., but not using "Astrum Argentum" per say.
There is a Nv Freemasonry interwoven in it, which is of 37 degrees: 36 around a circle and 1 in the center. The "Nv" symbol is the lamen, which is in a delta triangle formed by bisecting a square, with its base and height of equal length. The N forms a square within the triangle while the v is inverted as the triangles apex, thus:
^
N(The delta triangle's base and height is of 36 units).
Thus rather than Freemasonry's compass over G, mine is over N, as a major symbol. The magickal strands that have popped up since my initiation experience are really amazing. For instance the Nv Masonry's symbol is basically the "circle and dot" glyph of 37 degrees, and I didn't know at the time that Adam Weishaupt's Illuminati used the sun symbol as well. It's too complex to get into here, but I'll have some Libers eventually which expounds the order's enough to begin working their special currents magickally. They are both completely in line with Thelema and the Tree, so really just my building and view upon things. There is one standard pentagram ritual for this current which uses
HRV PR KRTh
HRV PR KRTh
HRV MA ChIS
HRV PR KRTh
HRV PR KRThin the five directions. It is called the 4774 Ritual, which I will issue publicly as well.
Btw, I like "Arcana Arcanorum" that I read above--I like Arcana "mystery" because it equals 156 in Greek-based Latin. Thus BABALON = 156 = ARCANA.
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**93
Wizardiaoan:
More power to you. The more diversity the merrier. Do what thou wilt!As long as you are inspired, your are the speaker and the teacher. Establish what you will. I am sure it will be as imaginative and as deep as you and your writing are.**
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@Froclown said
"Moses was a magus and thus a teacher of the A.'.A.'. system as was Buddha, Mohamad and the originator of hinduism."
That is ridiculous.
Frow...as an Adept of an authentic AA lineage, I find this thread vulgar and pointless.If you do get your group going, for fecks sake dont call it the AA...youre making a complete fool out of yourself.....why not call it "Insert Name of Order: an order aspiring to he AA path" etc.....you must be honest and let people know that your authority is not chartered, it is assumed. ..by you.
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@Froclown said
"Ok maybe I can not claim the Grade of any particular order per-sey
but my understanding is that the only criteria for 8=3 in the A.'.A.'. is to have experienced the crossing of the great abyss. Which based on the descriptions crowley has given for what it is like to have this experience, I feel I have experienced it.
The attainment of this nature I see not as having met some official criteria of the order, of passing and sort of examination of occult knowledge etc. Rather its an experience or state one attains like having an orgasm. You can't see that some one did not ever have an orgasm just because they did not study for 20 years in your particular sex school, nor can you claim they had not attained beyond the grade of virgin just because the person they had sex with was not a member of your club. "
@A.C. in Liber O said
"There is little danger that any student, however idle or stupid, will fail to get some result; but there is great danger that he will be led astray, obsessed and overwhelmed by his results, even though it be by those which it is necessary that he should attain. Too often, moreover, he mistaketh the first resting-place for the goal, and taketh off his armour as if he were a victor ere the fight is well begun.
It is desirable that the student should never attach to any result the importance which it at first seems to possess."
I too have experienced an abyssal crossing, which to my eyes at the time, matched very well with Crowley's descriptions of the event. I now understand that Crowley uses language that I can understand, and describes these events and states in ways that I can wrap my imagination around. I also understand that in each world on the tree of life, there is a whole entire tree, "scaled down" if you will. It is further said that inside each of the sepherah of those trees is a still smaller tree. You might be familiar with the Mandelbrot Set, and the concept of self-similarity: you can find the entire mandlebrot set repeated in nonidentical but similar versions of itself at smaller and smaller scales, ad infinitum. As above, so below. In other words, no matter what "scale" you're at, there are always abysses to be crossed. In mid 2008, I crossed the largest abyss of my life, and so it seemed to me, because I'd never experienced anything so huge before, that I had reached "The End", and had discovered "The Secret". For a brief moment, I too might have declared myself 8=3 and shed my armor in relief... until I looked upward, and discovered that the hill I was standing on was merely a bump on the first of the Yggdrasil's roots.
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well, if I take a college syllabus for a physics class my Proff Brown, and I assign the reading and the class work of that syllabus and I grade the class based on the criteria of that syllabus,
it seems rather silly to me that I would call my class, a study of Dr Brown's physics notes, or some such thing, rather than to just call it physics 101.
I never claimed that I invented the A.'.A.'. I only claimed that I would distribute the information to the initiate at the right time and in the right order, based on his journal records, and that I would proctor exams, grading them on the A.'.A.'. criteria.
If I open a Piano school, but I denote that I am not the inventer of pianos, must I call it hammer-string-chime-box lessons, because heaven forbid that some one learn to play piano if not from the one TRUE ALL MIGHTY AUTHORITY on pianos,
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"well, if I take a college syllabus for a physics class my Proff Brown, and I assign the reading and the class work of that syllabus and I grade the class based on the criteria of that syllabus,
it seems rather silly to me that I would call my class, a study of Dr Brown's physics notes, or some such thing, rather than to just call it physics 101."
That's a bit of a stretch. First of all, what would qualify you to teach Physics 101? You may have taken Professor Brown's Physics 101 class, but does that make you a qualified Professor of Physics? From what I understand of the education system, you would need either a Master's or a PhD in order to teach at a university or college level. Sure, you can distribute the syllabus and "grade" "papers" you "assign" to your "students", but without the proper credentials, you'd be nothing more than what the medical community would call a "quack". Or in layman's terms, a fraud.
"If I open a Piano school, but I denote that I am not the inventer of pianos, must I call it hammer-string-chime-box lessons, because heaven forbid that some one learn to play piano if not from the one TRUE ALL MIGHTY AUTHORITY on pianos"
This is another leap in logic. The piano, being an instrument that can be mastered relatively easily by just about anyone, doesn't require credentials in order to teach. There is more apparent validity if a piano teacher is, say, inducted in the Royal Conservatory of Music, or at the very least, has been teaching for twenty-odd years, but there is no general certification that needs to be acquired in order to teach the instrument. The piano, after all, isn't a science.
"I never claimed that I invented the A.'.A.'. I only claimed that I would distribute the information to the initiate at the right time and in the right order, based on his journal records, and that I would proctor exams, grading them on the A.'.A.'. criteria. "
Fine. But does that give you the right to call your order The A.'.A.'.? As in the example demonstrated above (re: Professor Brown's Physics 101), unless you've, let's say, acquired An A.'.A.'. Master's or PhD, you would not be qualified to call yourself a Professor of the A.'.A.'., and therefore have no claim to the title.
As I said in another post, if you want to form an Order using the source material of the A.'.A.'. and supplement it with additional material of your own device, go for it. I see nothing wrong with that per se, as I've done the same. BUT YOUR ORDER IS NOT THE A.'.A.'., nor is mine. We have our own initiation ceremonies, our own corpus of material in addition to the A.'.A.'. syllabus of the grades, our own Outer College system of fundamental preliminary training, and our own general methodology revolving around our own particular set of ideas. Otherwise, what would be the point of forming the Order in the first place if all we're doing is mimicking the A.'.A.'. word for word, step for step? Our Students could just as easily join the A.'.A.'. itself!
Operate in SERVICE to the A.'.A.'., the Great White Brotherhood, whatever... but you are not the A.'.A.'. Proper.
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in LVX,
-M -
If all you want to be affilitated with is the "Invisible A.'.A.'.," then let your affiliation be likewise invisible, for that is a matter of the heart, and there are members who do not know it by that name and those who seek it without calling it by that name. Trust that they will be drawn to you by the strenght of this real invisible connection.
If you want to be affiliated with the visible A.'.A.'. and their path of instruction, then do the Work they themselves require for that affiliation. Anything else is in a sense "false advertisement." Indeed, why even ask us? They exist. They have an email address. Just ask...!
But you want to claim visible affiliation with an Invisibly Body without having passed the tests or gaining the "accreditation" of that same Invisible Body's own visible vehicle - whose sole job it is to test and accredit - to judge whether a person can claim the right to visibly instruct in their "invisible" name!
@Froclown said
"well, if I take a college syllabus for a physics class my Proff Brown, and I assign the reading and the class work of that syllabus and I grade the class based on the criteria of that syllabus,
it seems rather silly to me that I would call my class, a study of Dr Brown's physics notes, or some such thing, rather than to just call it physics 101.
"Except that Dr. Brown has a PhD in his field, has spent a lifetime gaining the knowledge to add something NEW to that field of scientific endeavor in his doctoral dissertation, and has had to defend himself and his ideas before other PhDs TWICE - once at the Master's level (Thesis and Defense to prove he had the ability to do quality empirical research), and a second time at the Doctoral level (Dissertation and Defense - to ensure the quality of the new knowledge he has desired to add to the field).
He has earned the right to openly proclaim himself their "peer" and instruct on "their level" only by putting himself through their very rigorous challenges and passing those challenges to THEIR satisfaction.
You could teach a physics tutorial, but you could not honestly and ethically call it "Physics 101" because the "101" is a specific classification of that class by Dr. Brown's university, at which you do not teach because you do not have your PhD and have not applied to work there. At the very least, you would have to have a Master's degree and be working under the authority of other PhD's. Universities have standards for their instructors just as the visible A.'.A.'. does.
You could open a piano school and call it whatever you want as long as you had knowledge other people wanted. However, as soon as you call the class "Piano 101," you are once again falsely advertising the class as part of a specific university's classification system, and the same requirements would have to be satisfied. The "101" becomes a title you tacked on to imply "university quality" to people, but there have been no standards passed to ensure that the teaching is of that same "university quality."
Carrying the analogy further, there is a little "seminary" in my hometown that teaches local pastors the study of the Christian Scriptures and theology. They can call themselves "seminary" or "college," perhaps even "university," but until they have met the accreditation criteria of a respected organization such as The Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada, their degrees are meaningless, for no standard has been met to ensure the quality of that instruction or the ethics of conferring their "degree."
Where they differ from you is that they are content with not claiming any affiliation with the ATS - the very body whose sole job it is to test and accredit! Are you not seeing the parallel?
I think this is an absolutely perfect example of what everyone is trying in different ways to express to you.
I consider what you aspire to do as one of the noblest of all things to do.
Do the Work required to achieve it.
I offer you some useful questions for yourself: Why do you want to avoid this Work? If you truly believe the visible A.'.A.'. are the "hands and feet" of the Invisible Brotherhood, why do you continually ask us for permission to skip the Work required of you by them? We are not the body that has that authority. Why ask us?
Perhaps you really just want to be persuaded to do the Work! If you truly had the "internal spiritual go-ahead," you would not have to ask pee-ons like us what we thought about it.
It is your own personal sense of integrity that you are fighting. You want to be visibly considered an "Equal teacher" without doing visibly "equal Work." That obvious conflict exists within you or you would not be here asking this queston. Stop projecting that internal conflict outward onto us. When your own sense of integrity is satisfied, you won't need to debate anything with us...
All I personally am ever going to say to you is "NO." lol...! So, stop trying to satisfy me!
Satisfy your Self. "Do that, and no other shall say nay."
Your brother in passion if not in agreement...
"Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy."
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I would say YES, DO IT! Don't listen to anyone's horseshit.