Are there Satanic Thelemites.Satanist are bashing thelemites
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ok now,
As a Thelemite who has been studying and practicing magick and mysticism for almost 15 years now, a member of the ToT and the OTO (although I do not at all speak for them) I must interject.Nothing bugs me more than people talking about crap they've never done like it is fact.
I've practiced Goetic magick for years, among other forms of evocation and such.
The original joyofsatan guy is a nutcase in my opinion, but whatever..
What gets me is people who call themselves Thelemites and Magicians arguing over what Goetic spirits are or the pro's and con's of using them
WITHOUT EVER ****ING WORKING THE SYSTEM!I recomend Lon Milo DuQuette's writing on the subject.
To many times I've heard from other Thelemites "you have to be an Adept to safely do that stuff" - well, tell you what, I'm not an Adept yet, and hey, I could be totally wrong - but it works for me, and if it has jacked up my life, I learned from it and in the end evolved because of it.
The worst is having people tell you how Enochian spirits are so much better to evoke than Goetic ones, yet at the end of the discussion they are asked "so have you ever evoked either Enochian or Goetic entities?"
"uh, no...."
case closed, enough said, stop parroting words you read or what other people told you and go find out for yourself.
sorry for the heated tone of my reply, its a sore subject for me.. One must actually "DO" magick to be a magician in my opinion.
if we are so much better than christians, why are so many of us just as superstitious as they are?
btw, leave the Temple of Set out of the generalisations please, as a former member it is my opinion that they have a lot more real stuff going on vs. the other groups.. might not be exactly what I was looking for but they do actually practice and seek to live by their philosophy. (really not bad if you can get past how they rename classical magickal grades and the like to sound cooler)
whew, enough vitriol for now!
go evoke Orobas then tell me how it worked out for you. Then you'll have something to debate. I think I shall be doing the same later this week, need the old horsies help on something..
~jonathan
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@Jonathan said
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sorry for the heated tone of my reply, its a sore subject for me.. One must actually "DO" magick to be a magician in my opinion.
"I didn't realize evocation was the only thing considered "magick" these days. I guess things have changed since Crowley first invented his brand of Thelema.
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@Redd Fezz said
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@Jonathan said
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sorry for the heated tone of my reply, its a sore subject for me.. One must actually "DO" magick to be a magician in my opinion.
"I didn't realize evocation was the only thing considered "magick" these days. I guess things have changed since Crowley first invented his brand of Thelema."
my apologies, that wasn't what i meant to imply in that statement, although I can very much see how it can be interpretted to sound like.. My mind often races around a bit quickly on such subjects and I may state things that have to do with a whole thought process without stating clearly what that process was.
Ok, to address that statement - I find a lot of magicians are very busy reading/memorizing/talking about the practice of doing MAGICK.
however in their mystical pursuit of pursuing a union with GOD or whatever, or discovering their WILL, they spend little time actually "practicing" the science and art of Magick.
Magick can be very usefull in both low and high goals. But, as Jim said once I believe, one must practice it to get good at it (paraphrasing here by my own interpretation) the easiest way to do such a practice (in my opinion) is to do magickal ritual with an end or "result" in mind - that way one can clearly see if the working was a failure or success and therby go further in their work by making the necessary adjustments to make their rituals successfull in the end.. SO.. when the time comes to use your "MAGICK" to truly do your "WILL" well by then your pretty damn good at the whole business.. it will generally work.
in this non - adept magicians experience, its in the "doing" not that "thinking about" or "reading about"
i think far to often we are always putting off the work of the Ritual to actually accomplish something b/c we are not such and such grade, or ready yet or whatever.. do it! try it! Base your believes on those experiences, not what others told you!
besides, thats why we have teachers, on this plane or another, to bail us out if we screw up to much? Right Jim?
keeps digging the hole
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True Magick is a scientific process. Scientists read, study and learn the scientific method THEN we decide what we seek to discover. i.e. if I apply this chemical to this new compound with alot of heat can I possibly create a stronger alloy?
There is alot of dogma going on here. If you want to know wether Goetia (or any other magick) is good or bad, or even if it works or not, I suggest you try it when you feel compelled, and keep strong tight records of what happens so that you can experiment again and again and refine your process, as in all magick.
What is this talk of "Low purpose"? Keter is in malkuth my dears, lets not become Christianity now. tisk tisk. Remember the Goddess Loves you and wants you to have it all.
And one more thought....try not to apply the compound fear to your experimentation, I find that it always causes combustion -
You know it,s funny i was talking to a Satanist one day here in Salem,a real great guy,, he said to me The irony of Satanism is we really don,t believe in Satan,, we just dont believe in an after life. If you think about it Satan is just a christian creation[somebody has got to be a bad guy]. i was asked by a family member if i was a Satan worshipper[ahh from the mouths of babes]. My reply was at times we all are.You can,t have L.V.X. Without DARK,,
. it,s gotta go both ways;;; if not for Dark how would we truly know ourselves,, My Heart to Yours,, Frater Nocturnis -
@Kingsolomon said
"I was on a forum and note to me what they said.. I hope this is NOT true..
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why? why is the rant of one or a few guys bothering you?
that is the question
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Some very good replies it doesn't take long to figure out that the founders of JOS are a bunch of Neo- Nazi loonies.. I disagree with there take on evocation like anything you start of slowly you use a circle and triangle for a reason there are some Entities that are to powerful for us when working with CM it is VERY advisable especially in the early years of practice.
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Many of the Entities that we call are too dangerous for us to handle without protection. That is part of what ritual is for. To protect us as we grow. Notice that I said that is PART of what ritual is for. Ritual also develops within the Magickian, in a structured methodology, personal power. As this power grows so does the True Magickal capability of the Magickian.To explain, when we summon we often use the Magickal capabilities of the Entity we are summoning to achieve our ends. As we grow the need for external Entities diminishes. We can achieve our desires DIRECTLY. However, to get to this point SIGNIFICANT growth has to occur. The RAW power of the Entities is also OUR power once we learn to master it. That is part of what summoning is all about.
I DO NOT recommend that beginning magickians pursue this line of thought if summoning entities. When you are ready you will know."
As for Luciferian Gnosis there is a big difference between Lucifer and Satan
Just my two cents
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I re read this post..
Lol. I was very young then, and how I understood the universe, god and satan.
Wow, I was very zealous then, quick to let the ego speak before wisdom.
Now a lot has changed..
Its good to reflect on your former self, and let love do its work.
Its interesting to re read post and see ones progress in that perspective.The hardest thing to do in life is to know thyself -Thales of Miletus
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All Thelemites are "Satanists."
For one, if you are a Thelemite, you do yourself no wrong by calling yourself one of us, as you are probably juggs-deep into Crowley's work. If one is balls-deep into AC's work, one realizes that the man adored Pan, and mentions him in many, many of his works.
And who is Pan? The goat-hooved beloved god of the folk of the sacred mountain, of all Thelemites, and those who cherish esoteric knowledge. Ayin. The Devil. Set. Satan. Cronus.
Hope this helps. And remember, Lucifer wasn't a hated entity until the Council of Nicaea where not only books were thrown out of the biblical canon, but words changed and nature and the Goddess damned for their purity. This started a new religion where the corporation of the Church was established. For those who wish to have a frown placed between prayer and their God. (The frown of a heartless priest.)
Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!! -
@ThelemicMage said
"All Thelemites are "Satanists.""
Not true at all.
I have nothing against Satan. I just don't happen to worship him. (It would be closer to the truth to say he worships me.)
"And who is Pan? The goat-hooved beloved god of the folk of the sacred mountain, of all Thelemites, and those who cherish esoteric knowledge. Ayin. The Devil. Set. Satan. Cronus."
I understand why you might say this - I mean, horns and everything - but these are really quite dramatically different, quite distinct. Pan is not the Devil (though certainly many Christians would devilize Pan).
Pan is The All. (Literally.) This is quite distinct from Satan.
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So Jim, you would place Pan as closer to the "Luciferian" side of Baphomet, as contrasted to the "Satanic" side of Baphomet, the word "Satan" to mean "accuser" or "adversary"?
I suspect a slew of comments in an attempt to contrast Lucifer or Satan with Baphomet. Though Baphomet is certainly related to Allah as well. Seeing as how Satan-Typhon is the twin-brother of the Sun, or Sol, or as Crowley puts it, "The Sun in the South", they share a lot of characteristics throughout the world's gospels.
(Though Jim, Crowley directly refers to Pan as "The Devil" in the Book of Photeth.)
A very interesting conversation that might deserve it's own thread if not for the sole fact of one being easier and enough for us to explain things to those interested in breaking away from the herd and becoming one of the Pack. "To whom even the Mountain Goat trembles in riotous fear."
So, you are correct in saying Pan worships those who deserve worship, as they worship Nature and Pan likewise.
Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!! -
@ThelemicMage said
"So Jim, you would place Pan as closer to the "Luciferian" side of Baphomet, as contrasted to the "Satanic" side of Baphomet, the word "Satan" to mean "accuser" or "adversary"?
I suspect a slew of comments in an attempt to contrast Lucifer or Satan with Baphomet. Though Baphomet is certainly related to Allah as well. Seeing as how Satan-Typhon is the twin-brother of the Sun, or Sol, or as Crowley puts it, "The Sun in the South", they share a lot of characteristics throughout the world's gospels.
(Though Jim, Crowley directly refers to Pan as "The Devil" in the Book of Photeth.)
A very interesting conversation that might deserve it's own thread if not for the sole fact of one being easier and enough for us to explain things to those interested in breaking away from the herd and becoming one of the Pack. "To whom even the Mountain Goat trembles in riotous fear."
So, you are correct in saying Pan worships those who deserve worship, as they worship Nature and Pan likewise.
Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!!"This is a rather old thread but since it has been resurrected I might add a couple short comments. During some recent travels I've come into contact with several individuals who identified with Satanic and Demonic entities and I had a chance to have some conversations with them and discuss their views. With the exception of one, all of these individuals struck me as quite unbalanced and lacked a certain focus or sense of control to their personalities. I eventually came to the conclusion that a.) Satanism, in essence, has not a few parallels to Thelema, and if one reads the Satanic Bible itself it is clear that LaVey is more than a little influenced by Crowley, even down to the language he uses. b.) The Satanic path lacks the coherence and balancing elements that make the system of Thelema a viable means of attainment. c.) Those who practice demon/spirit worship and in/evocation without proper training or knowledge are very much doomed to failure and are deceiving themselves and others if they think these things can be practiced without risk. (I was quite surprised to find that one of these individuals didn't know there was a difference between invocation and evocation.)
At any rate, the Satanic/Luciferian system might be useful at the lower stages of the Work, but is really in essence a derivative of other, more coherent systems.
I think another issue to be raised about this, perhaps the main issue, is the fact that most of these individuals were quite young and simply lacked access to any other system of attainment. I remember that when I was a youth and I decided I wanted to rebel against the traditions of my upbringing, the lack of fellowship with properly trained and studied individuals compounded the ensuing problems.
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Excellent points, Mephisto. People intrigued in spirituality but lack the dicipline, (or not even the dicipline, but lack of devotion,) usually go for the darker elements of mysticism, not knowing the brightest white light is yet darkness...
My spiritual quest went:
Myself, (for years.)
Satanic Bible, (showed me that moderation is the key to success in all.)
Thelema, (Finally, a balanced set of rituals and practices that evoke and inspire a positive mindset and progressive learning experience.)
Discordia, (I might have been ready for Discordianism morally and emotionally before Thelema, but now I know all the rules that are there to breake. [Or, more rationally, I can now see all the fences I have to hop.]Kaos magic practiced by a learned Thelemite is the highest spiritual accomplishment one can attain, in my opinion.
The rules that seem to be there during all the years of attainment and the nights of Apophis, are recognized as hallucinations, or delusions of order. As is the Tree, the paths, spheres, and pretty much Everything. One can only rely on what is not attempted order.But I've had hundreds of full-on doses of real psychedelics, which leaves one in a constant state of meditation and Will manifestation, on a conscious level. With meditation, one can go back to the places one has reached with psychedelics. However, in my opinion, one cannot know the heights and peaks of it all without psychedelics. Even when I read Crowley's early stuff, I think, (Well I know that level and am well past it because of blah blah set of experiences...)
Just the evolved food of nature. We all must be responsible cosmic citizens.
Back on point though, Satan-Typhon is a pretty cool dude. And His counterpart, Scorpio-Apophis have brought me through many steeps, sandtraps, storms and crags, and I seem to have turned out OK.
Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!!