String Theory and Qabalah
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@photogasm said
"I'd like to point out that these views are not my own (so no need to address me personally), but the views of a certain auther, as stated.
Just inciting a discussion is all."
Please don't take my remarks as personal attacks. Just trying to add to the incitement.
If I ever seem offensive in this forum then I sincerely apologize. That is never my intention. Chalk it up to my youthful enthusiasm. And if I ever say anything here that makes me look foolish -- well {båd#wørd}! I hate it when that happens.
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I do not know much about string theory, but a line similar to the following:
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Three that are physical, our physical world, one time-dimension, and 6 other dimensions bent in each particle.
"Popped into my head when I was reading my first primer about Qabalah. Although, this particular comment mentioned the six sephiroth known collectively as the "Sephiroth of Construction (Yesod to Chesed)". Which got me thinking "Three spatial dimensions + six sephiroth of construction = nine spatial dimensions." Which would allow string theory to work (the 10th being time).
In my opinion, it could be a good method of mathematically working things out. As, it is my belief that there is no "matter." What we perceive as the interaction of matter is actually the resistance resulting from the electromagnetic fields 'touching.' After all, space is predominantly empty.
One of the "tricks" of quantum mechanics is to renormalize equations. Mathematical slights-of-hand to work around the fact that many particles posses electromagnetic fields of infinite or near infinite energy.
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I've stopped watching any science news. While I know how it's useful to some people who need science, to me science is mostly just a religion, that has more practical applications.
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@photogasm said
""As quantum physic evolves, researchers are discovering a universal truth behind all particles, called the string theory.
Discuss."it's not solid science yet
when the graviton smashing experiments (in France as far as i know)do indeed show some kind of irrational "fading" of teh Graviton then the omnidimensional model may gain credence and the comparative weakness of Gravity compared to the other 3 major forces will be expalained. Until then ,unfortunately it is philosophy and not science.
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I have found the subject matter of this discussion quite interesting. I but it displeases me when replies are more dismissive of one another. I people should not be so offended or upset when a impersonal question or an idea or posed.
I occult (or hidden knowledge) is the bedrock of all the science we have today. We will use archetypes to build our theoretical models on how we see the universe.The idea of 4 states of matter was considered the 4 four elements. But some mater only has 3 or 2 physical states while others may have and arguable more than 4.
The you universe conscience. For we are part of it and we are aware of it. To say I only exist because I am aware I exist is misanthropic.
False notions when entering a discussion.
Occam's Razor is true.
Only answers that are testable and or measurable are valid.
Logic is universal
Nature seeks harmony.
Evolution is conscienceless.
Individuals can evolve. -
IMHO...
@hiddeneye said
"False notions when entering a discussion.
Occam's Razor is true."Obviously not invariably true, but usually the best way to filter BS from insight.
When theories compete for our attention and acceptance, the one that makes the fewest assumptions naturally should draw our attention. (And the clearest explanation is usually from someone who knows what they are talkiong about.)
"Only answers that are testable and or measurable are valid."
That depends on the question; and, ultimately, is probably always true. However, for something we can test, actually looking and measuring and recording gives far more credibility than just theorizing.
"Logic is universal"
Intellectual logic is individually and, within an individual, is usually severly undertrained and underutilized. Logic, like a parachute, rewards those who (a) are trained in using it and (b) use it intelligently.
"Nature seeks harmony."
Nature is inherently harmonious always - if, by "nature," we mean the whole universe. (All the parts of everything that is do fit together.) - Smaller subsets of that often will appear to contradict this because, well, they're not the WHOLE whole.
"Evolution is conscienceless."
Interesting perspective. I think I'd say that evolution has consciousness, but I'm not at all persuaded that it has a conscience. That appears to be a distinctly primate invention.
"Individuals can evolve."
We do. All the time. In the literal genetic sense. It's the greatest genetic breakthrough of the 21st century so far. It's all in the RNA.
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Quote:
Individuals can evolve.We do. All the time. In the literal genetic sense. It's the greatest genetic breakthrough of the 21st century so far. It's all in the RNA.
Question: do you think that human beings can consciously manipulate their RNA by properly using the Qabalah? Or any other organized system?
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@Veronica said
"Question: do you think that human beings can consciously manipulate their RNA by properly using the Qabalah? Or any other organized system?"
Yes... but I should qualify that answer.
We don't know enough yet to pick a result and then sit down and remap to meet that result.
Exceptions exist, though, for results that have been long under development. I speak, in particular of the path of initiation. The more I know about RNA latency etc., the ore certain I am that traditional initiation ceremonies (i.e., the formulae underlying them, plus some specific implementation details) have been remapping our functional genetic profiles for millennia. We don't know the exact way it works (i.e., we couldn't likely take a previously unexplored goal and just "sit down and do it", but we DO know the basic principles of how this works at the DNA-RNA level. The types of environmental factors that make it happen are consistent with specific methodologies of ceremonial initiation.
There are other things that we're feeling our way through. It's as much science as, say, the production of music that both beats the mathematical odds of sounding palatable, but also creating music that has specific psychological effectgs. We're inching our way through use of ceremonial elements, specific imagery, etc. to unlock always-potential but hitherto-unlocked (unactualized) capacities - things already existing in the human DNA code but normally turned off. The specific techniques I gave for using my book Visions & Voices as a method of self-initiation is the best example that comes to mind. This is mostly RNA manipulation by integrating effects of image, symbol, sound, and body conditions in a coordinated way.
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@Veronica said
"Do you think that the Qabalah is the most efficient method we have to date to effect change on RNA? Deliberate change.
I really think I speak another language."
Yes, I do.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"IMHO...
"Evolution is conscienceless."
Interesting perspective. I think I'd say that evolution has consciousness, but I'm not at all persuaded that it has a conscience. That appears to be a distinctly primate invention.
"Individuals can evolve."
We do. All the time. In the literal genetic sense. It's the greatest genetic breakthrough of the 21st century so far. It's all in the RNA."
Don´t know if this help, but I think theory of chaos or theory of systems could be close to this point. It has been tested in computer systems that even virtual systems simulations (the computer simulation of an individual person), in principle lifeless, inorganic and so on, could develop the skills necessaries to overcome certain environmental problems, like learning to jump for avoid a hollow in the ground, simple things like that, which is certainly some kind of evolution. I don´t remember the details very well, I read about it a time ago, there was a good bbc documentary about the subject called The secret life of chaos, that I can´t now find entirely on youtube, in which is commented this experiments, it was pretty good.
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@Veronica said
"Do you think that the Qabalah is the most efficient method we have to date to effect change on RNA? Deliberate change.
I really think I speak another language."
@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes, I do."
How? Qabalah as a blueprint to be able to uniquely change our gene-expression? Once we have the blueprint, we still need the fuel, correct? I think this is only an aspect of the equation. And the gene-expression is directly affected by the map? Hmm...
One person's Qabalah doesn't mean poop to someone else.
Can of worms. You can't just drop a bomb like that, Jim.
Well, I guess you just did...
The Will is the most effective method to effect change in a specific direction. The Qabalah is the filing cabinet.
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I was thinking more along the lines of because the Qabalah is a catalog of human experiences, modes of thinking, mathematics and an atlas you could use the system to gain the resources to give an individual the wisdom and understanding on how to basically do or be anything.
I often compare the TOL to a library catalog. But the catalog actually is just a symbol for all the books on the shelves. If you need information you can wander about the stacks all day till you find it. If you go the catalog it will tell you where to go. Magicians are very much like Librarians.
I think that using the Qabalah is strengthening your will, so that you can bring about change. I had always thought Love and Will were the most efficient methods for me personally. I really don't know much at all about the Qabalah, but I do know a lot about organization, and classification systems. I think though that I am inclined that way, and it seems to me that many people are inclined to understand the quablah.
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@Frater 639 said
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@Veronica said
"Do you think that the Qabalah is the most efficient method we have to date to effect change on RNA? Deliberate change.I really think I speak another language."
@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes, I do."
How? Qabalah as a blueprint to be able to uniquely change our gene-expression? Once we have the blueprint, we still need the fuel, correct? I think this is only an aspect of the equation. And the gene-expression is directly affected by the map? Hmm...
One person's Qabalah doesn't mean poop to someone else.
Can of worms. You can't just drop a bomb like that, Jim."
I didn't just "drop" that one line. It's a subset of a longer post. Please see the original.
Here's the crux of the key, one that was not fully appreciated until after the human genome was mapped: What genes you have is only part of the picture. Each gene can be flipped on or off (or, it seems to some researchers, can be anywhere along a gradiant of activity). RNA controls this. And it's known that strong, intense experiences of particular kinds can cause RNA to change he activity level of individual genes.
Take that back into my earlier post. It should make it more understandable.
"The Will is the most effective method to effect change in a specific direction. The Qabalah is the filing cabinet."
But it's far more than that. The Tree of Life is not just one person's preference of labels. It's an underlying universal pattern.
And Qabalah is far more than this. Remember that by "the practical Qabalah" we mean, simply, ceremonial magick - the USE of Qabalah in practical ways.
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@Veronica said
"I had always thought Love and Will were the most efficient methods for me personally."
Agreed.
But RNA/DNA change is something that can be materially measured -- or, at least, those techniques of measurement are being refined further as we speak. We're not talking some mystical idea here. The Qabalah...well, it really depends on how you're choosing to use the title "Qabalah". But, generally, it is a filing cabinet.
It is a personal Dewey Decimal System to borrow the Librarian metaphor, so I'm sure you have your own symbol system -- and that is your Qabalah. It personally makes sense to you. How you assign it personally makes no difference, but it can provide practical results...which I'm sure you personally have acheived -- otherwise, you would have abandoned your system awhile ago. The TOL is just a model...
@Jim Eshelman said
"Here's the crux of the key, one that was not fully appreciated until after the human genome was mapped: What genes you have is only part of the picture. Each gene can be flipped on or off (or, it seems to some researchers, can be anywhere along a gradiant of activity). RNA controls this. And it's known that strong, intense experiences of particular kinds can cause RNA to change he activity level of individual genes."
Which we can call Love and Will (just to use the general terms) -- the strong, intense experiences. We've discussed epigenetics before -- I just didn't see how you were bringing the Qabalah into genetic engineering in a specific way...
Sure, things can be switched on and off -- so, you're saying, to go a bit further, by working with Michael, from the Qabalistic perspective, we are activating DNA-RNA that resonates with his nature? We are genetically becoming angels in a sense (to use that model)?
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@Frater 639 said
"But RNA/DNA change is something that can be materially measured -- or, at least, those techniques of measurement are being refined further as we speak. We're not talking some mystical idea here. The Qabalah...well, it really depends on how you're choosing to use the title "Qabalah". But, generally, it is a filing cabinet."
See my prior post. I think this is way too narrow a use. By Qabalah I include the whole of ceremonial magick, and especially (in the present context) Qabalistic rituals of initiation.
"It is a personal Dewey Decimal System to borrow the Librarian metaphor"
That's the part I disagree with most: That it's a personal system. It can be personalized, but that's just a rendering of a universal pattern into something more personally accessible. It isn't something to make up from scratch, but something to understand sufficiently that you can start organizing all of your other perceptions into it. (The comparison to your metaphor would be: You don't make up your own Dewey Decimal System, but you do file all of the books you own according to the "universal" system.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Here's the crux of the key, one that was not fully appreciated until after the human genome was mapped: What genes you have is only part of the picture. Each gene can be flipped on or off (or, it seems to some researchers, can be anywhere along a gradiant of activity). RNA controls this. And it's known that strong, intense experiences of particular kinds can cause RNA to change he activity level of individual genes."Which we can call Love and Will (just to use the general terms) -- the strong, intense experiences. We've discussed epigenetics before -- I just didn't see how you were bringing the Qabalah into genetic engineering in a specific way..."
In cvontext of the present conversation, I'm referring especially (though not exclusively) to the general patterns and specific implementations that form classic rituals of initiation - including elements that have been known to have specific effects for hundreds of years (or longer). These ceremonies ARE Qabalah.
"Sure, things can be switched on and off -- so, you're saying, to go a bit further, by working with Michael, from the Qabalistic perspective, we are activating DNA-RNA that resonates with his nature? We are genetically becoming angels in a sense (to use that model)?"
That's too simple - but, yeah, things along that line.
I am convinced that it is a set of specific patterns that have the key effect - patterns that resonate with, and therefore trigger, patterns latent in the genetic code. At present, we don't have ways of mapping this except by empirical observation of what interlocking sets of patterns produce the desired set of effects. The intensity, consistency, and trueness with which these patterns are delivered determines the intensity of the impact and, thus, the liklihood of persistent change.
For example, I know (from over 20 years of observation) that the specific interlocking pattern of rituals that form Temple of Thelema's First Order do reliably trigger a set of changes that appear like mutations - they are that dramatic. Individual elements of a given ritual have only flitting effect. The pattern of an entire ritual produces decisive, discernible effects. But the real fruit is in the interlocking pattern of the whole of the set of rituals.
Now, can I prove that these are from RNA action? Not directly, no. I can only say that the effects are consistent with that type of phenomena, and are produced by circumstances that are known to sometimes cause epigenetic changes. We know how to produce these effects at will - the last 15 years of discovery in genetics simply gives the first model that explains it so thoroughly. (The effects are the unlocking of capacities within individuals that do not manifest in the base line of humanity and did not exist in the particular individuals before passing through the process. They can only realistically be described as capacities latent or potential within the human species.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"See my prior post. I think this is way too narrow a use. By Qabalah I include the whole of ceremonial magick, and especially (in the present context) Qabalistic rituals of initiation."
The Qabalah can always be stretched!
Haha, Jim. I know what you mean.@Jim Eshelman said
"That's the part I disagree with most: That it's a personal system. It can be personalized, but that's just a rendering of a universal pattern into something more personally accessible. It isn't something to make up from scratch, but something to understand sufficiently that you can start organizing all of your other perceptions into it. (The comparison to your metaphor would be: You don't make up your own Dewey Decimal System, but you do file all of the books you own according to the "universal" system.)"
Of course you can say that because the Qabalah is so sufficiently elastic -- but my point is to reduce the dogma. The TOL is Qabalah, the Tao is Qabalah, the inhale/exhale is Qabalah. But, for the most part, some dogmatic people think because Liber D says that 325 is Bartzabel, he is somewhere making sure his characteristic nature is never 324 to someone else...I think we're on the same page here? My point is that it is personal -- perception is personal -- even though there is a universal thing that exists labeled "perception". And even that is only a convenient label...blah, blah. But when a label ceases to differentiate anything, there is no use in the label. Again, saying that the Qabalah is a filing system is just as justifiable as saying that the Qabalah is EVERYTHING. My Qabalah is never your Qabalah and it's not AC's either. We don't want to evoke the DEMON CROWLEY.
@Jim Eshelman said
"In cvontext of the present conversation, I'm referring especially (though not exclusively) to the general patterns and specific implementations that form classic rituals of initiation - including elements that have been known to have specific effects for hundreds of years (or longer). These ceremonies ARE Qabalah."
Well, it could be more accurate to say that these are effective rituals of initiation are just that -- effective rituals of initiation. IT could be equally argued that Qabalah enters when we are separating the dross from the gold -- and the classics are sometimes sacred cows that we need to make hamburger out of.
@Jim Eshelman said
"That's too simple - but, yeah, things along that line.
I am convinced that it is a set of specific patterns that have the key effect - patterns that resonate with, and therefore trigger, patterns latent in the genetic code. At present, we don't have ways of mapping this except by empirical observation of what interlocking sets of patterns produce the desired set of effects. The intensity, consistency, and trueness with which these patterns are delivered determines the intensity of the impact and, thus, the liklihood of persistent change.
For example, I know (from over 20 years of observation) that the specific interlocking pattern of rituals that form Temple of Thelema's First Order do reliably trigger a set of changes that appear like mutations - they are that dramatic. Individual elements of a given ritual have only flitting effect. The pattern of an entire ritual produces decisive, discernible effects. But the real fruit is in the interlocking pattern of the whole of the set of rituals.
Now, can I prove that these are from RNA action? Not directly, no. I can only say that the effects are consistent with that type of phenomena, and are produced by circumstances that are known to sometimes cause epigenetic changes. We know how to produce these effects at will - the last 15 years of discovery in genetics simply gives the first model that explains it so thoroughly. (The effects are the unlocking of capacities within individuals that do not manifest in the base line of humanity and did not exist in the particular individuals before passing through the process. They can only realistically be described as capacities latent or potential within the human species.)"
Hell yes! I agree with all of that!
Of course it's not that simple as "I'm becoming an angel!" - but the material is Becoming the ideal via Love and Will. Exciting that we have more tools to prove it and not just flowery tomes from crusty ancients. -
A note with or without relationship with the subject here (I think with). Here, at minute 51:00 it´s what I tell before about the computer simulation of evolution. There´s no RNA talking in here, but I think there could be a conexion or something with the subject. I know being a simple documentary, and without any cientific education, it could be simply easy to believe whatever general conceptions are conceived in documentaries and stuff of this kind. I mean, the important could be in the details, which are not bringed. Anyway, one is free to speculate: what if the RNA is simply the organic life mode of organization for an unique kind of process of evolution in nature, which is been observed in mathematical processes around the nature like that ones in chaos/systems theory? Just theorizing wondering.
www.dailymotion.com/video/xpxj1b_the-secret-life-of-chaos_tech#.UNBAUaz0Qwo
About the Qabalah, I think it´s far more a method for unify right and left sides of the brain for an aproaching to the thing, not only a rational steril research like could be some sorts of scientific approachments, but a far more really skepticall point of view.
