String Theory and Qabalah
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@Jim Eshelman said
"IMHO...
"Evolution is conscienceless."
Interesting perspective. I think I'd say that evolution has consciousness, but I'm not at all persuaded that it has a conscience. That appears to be a distinctly primate invention.
"Individuals can evolve."
We do. All the time. In the literal genetic sense. It's the greatest genetic breakthrough of the 21st century so far. It's all in the RNA."
Don´t know if this help, but I think theory of chaos or theory of systems could be close to this point. It has been tested in computer systems that even virtual systems simulations (the computer simulation of an individual person), in principle lifeless, inorganic and so on, could develop the skills necessaries to overcome certain environmental problems, like learning to jump for avoid a hollow in the ground, simple things like that, which is certainly some kind of evolution. I don´t remember the details very well, I read about it a time ago, there was a good bbc documentary about the subject called The secret life of chaos, that I can´t now find entirely on youtube, in which is commented this experiments, it was pretty good.
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@Veronica said
"Do you think that the Qabalah is the most efficient method we have to date to effect change on RNA? Deliberate change.
I really think I speak another language."
@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes, I do."
How? Qabalah as a blueprint to be able to uniquely change our gene-expression? Once we have the blueprint, we still need the fuel, correct? I think this is only an aspect of the equation. And the gene-expression is directly affected by the map? Hmm...
One person's Qabalah doesn't mean poop to someone else.
Can of worms. You can't just drop a bomb like that, Jim.
Well, I guess you just did...
The Will is the most effective method to effect change in a specific direction. The Qabalah is the filing cabinet.
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I was thinking more along the lines of because the Qabalah is a catalog of human experiences, modes of thinking, mathematics and an atlas you could use the system to gain the resources to give an individual the wisdom and understanding on how to basically do or be anything.
I often compare the TOL to a library catalog. But the catalog actually is just a symbol for all the books on the shelves. If you need information you can wander about the stacks all day till you find it. If you go the catalog it will tell you where to go. Magicians are very much like Librarians.
I think that using the Qabalah is strengthening your will, so that you can bring about change. I had always thought Love and Will were the most efficient methods for me personally. I really don't know much at all about the Qabalah, but I do know a lot about organization, and classification systems. I think though that I am inclined that way, and it seems to me that many people are inclined to understand the quablah.
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@Frater 639 said
"
@Veronica said
"Do you think that the Qabalah is the most efficient method we have to date to effect change on RNA? Deliberate change.I really think I speak another language."
@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes, I do."
How? Qabalah as a blueprint to be able to uniquely change our gene-expression? Once we have the blueprint, we still need the fuel, correct? I think this is only an aspect of the equation. And the gene-expression is directly affected by the map? Hmm...
One person's Qabalah doesn't mean poop to someone else.
Can of worms. You can't just drop a bomb like that, Jim."
I didn't just "drop" that one line. It's a subset of a longer post. Please see the original.
Here's the crux of the key, one that was not fully appreciated until after the human genome was mapped: What genes you have is only part of the picture. Each gene can be flipped on or off (or, it seems to some researchers, can be anywhere along a gradiant of activity). RNA controls this. And it's known that strong, intense experiences of particular kinds can cause RNA to change he activity level of individual genes.
Take that back into my earlier post. It should make it more understandable.
"The Will is the most effective method to effect change in a specific direction. The Qabalah is the filing cabinet."
But it's far more than that. The Tree of Life is not just one person's preference of labels. It's an underlying universal pattern.
And Qabalah is far more than this. Remember that by "the practical Qabalah" we mean, simply, ceremonial magick - the USE of Qabalah in practical ways.
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@Veronica said
"I had always thought Love and Will were the most efficient methods for me personally."
Agreed.
But RNA/DNA change is something that can be materially measured -- or, at least, those techniques of measurement are being refined further as we speak. We're not talking some mystical idea here. The Qabalah...well, it really depends on how you're choosing to use the title "Qabalah". But, generally, it is a filing cabinet.
It is a personal Dewey Decimal System to borrow the Librarian metaphor, so I'm sure you have your own symbol system -- and that is your Qabalah. It personally makes sense to you. How you assign it personally makes no difference, but it can provide practical results...which I'm sure you personally have acheived -- otherwise, you would have abandoned your system awhile ago. The TOL is just a model...
@Jim Eshelman said
"Here's the crux of the key, one that was not fully appreciated until after the human genome was mapped: What genes you have is only part of the picture. Each gene can be flipped on or off (or, it seems to some researchers, can be anywhere along a gradiant of activity). RNA controls this. And it's known that strong, intense experiences of particular kinds can cause RNA to change he activity level of individual genes."
Which we can call Love and Will (just to use the general terms) -- the strong, intense experiences. We've discussed epigenetics before -- I just didn't see how you were bringing the Qabalah into genetic engineering in a specific way...
Sure, things can be switched on and off -- so, you're saying, to go a bit further, by working with Michael, from the Qabalistic perspective, we are activating DNA-RNA that resonates with his nature? We are genetically becoming angels in a sense (to use that model)?
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@Frater 639 said
"But RNA/DNA change is something that can be materially measured -- or, at least, those techniques of measurement are being refined further as we speak. We're not talking some mystical idea here. The Qabalah...well, it really depends on how you're choosing to use the title "Qabalah". But, generally, it is a filing cabinet."
See my prior post. I think this is way too narrow a use. By Qabalah I include the whole of ceremonial magick, and especially (in the present context) Qabalistic rituals of initiation.
"It is a personal Dewey Decimal System to borrow the Librarian metaphor"
That's the part I disagree with most: That it's a personal system. It can be personalized, but that's just a rendering of a universal pattern into something more personally accessible. It isn't something to make up from scratch, but something to understand sufficiently that you can start organizing all of your other perceptions into it. (The comparison to your metaphor would be: You don't make up your own Dewey Decimal System, but you do file all of the books you own according to the "universal" system.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Here's the crux of the key, one that was not fully appreciated until after the human genome was mapped: What genes you have is only part of the picture. Each gene can be flipped on or off (or, it seems to some researchers, can be anywhere along a gradiant of activity). RNA controls this. And it's known that strong, intense experiences of particular kinds can cause RNA to change he activity level of individual genes."Which we can call Love and Will (just to use the general terms) -- the strong, intense experiences. We've discussed epigenetics before -- I just didn't see how you were bringing the Qabalah into genetic engineering in a specific way..."
In cvontext of the present conversation, I'm referring especially (though not exclusively) to the general patterns and specific implementations that form classic rituals of initiation - including elements that have been known to have specific effects for hundreds of years (or longer). These ceremonies ARE Qabalah.
"Sure, things can be switched on and off -- so, you're saying, to go a bit further, by working with Michael, from the Qabalistic perspective, we are activating DNA-RNA that resonates with his nature? We are genetically becoming angels in a sense (to use that model)?"
That's too simple - but, yeah, things along that line.
I am convinced that it is a set of specific patterns that have the key effect - patterns that resonate with, and therefore trigger, patterns latent in the genetic code. At present, we don't have ways of mapping this except by empirical observation of what interlocking sets of patterns produce the desired set of effects. The intensity, consistency, and trueness with which these patterns are delivered determines the intensity of the impact and, thus, the liklihood of persistent change.
For example, I know (from over 20 years of observation) that the specific interlocking pattern of rituals that form Temple of Thelema's First Order do reliably trigger a set of changes that appear like mutations - they are that dramatic. Individual elements of a given ritual have only flitting effect. The pattern of an entire ritual produces decisive, discernible effects. But the real fruit is in the interlocking pattern of the whole of the set of rituals.
Now, can I prove that these are from RNA action? Not directly, no. I can only say that the effects are consistent with that type of phenomena, and are produced by circumstances that are known to sometimes cause epigenetic changes. We know how to produce these effects at will - the last 15 years of discovery in genetics simply gives the first model that explains it so thoroughly. (The effects are the unlocking of capacities within individuals that do not manifest in the base line of humanity and did not exist in the particular individuals before passing through the process. They can only realistically be described as capacities latent or potential within the human species.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"See my prior post. I think this is way too narrow a use. By Qabalah I include the whole of ceremonial magick, and especially (in the present context) Qabalistic rituals of initiation."
The Qabalah can always be stretched!
Haha, Jim. I know what you mean.@Jim Eshelman said
"That's the part I disagree with most: That it's a personal system. It can be personalized, but that's just a rendering of a universal pattern into something more personally accessible. It isn't something to make up from scratch, but something to understand sufficiently that you can start organizing all of your other perceptions into it. (The comparison to your metaphor would be: You don't make up your own Dewey Decimal System, but you do file all of the books you own according to the "universal" system.)"
Of course you can say that because the Qabalah is so sufficiently elastic -- but my point is to reduce the dogma. The TOL is Qabalah, the Tao is Qabalah, the inhale/exhale is Qabalah. But, for the most part, some dogmatic people think because Liber D says that 325 is Bartzabel, he is somewhere making sure his characteristic nature is never 324 to someone else...I think we're on the same page here? My point is that it is personal -- perception is personal -- even though there is a universal thing that exists labeled "perception". And even that is only a convenient label...blah, blah. But when a label ceases to differentiate anything, there is no use in the label. Again, saying that the Qabalah is a filing system is just as justifiable as saying that the Qabalah is EVERYTHING. My Qabalah is never your Qabalah and it's not AC's either. We don't want to evoke the DEMON CROWLEY.
@Jim Eshelman said
"In cvontext of the present conversation, I'm referring especially (though not exclusively) to the general patterns and specific implementations that form classic rituals of initiation - including elements that have been known to have specific effects for hundreds of years (or longer). These ceremonies ARE Qabalah."
Well, it could be more accurate to say that these are effective rituals of initiation are just that -- effective rituals of initiation. IT could be equally argued that Qabalah enters when we are separating the dross from the gold -- and the classics are sometimes sacred cows that we need to make hamburger out of.
@Jim Eshelman said
"That's too simple - but, yeah, things along that line.
I am convinced that it is a set of specific patterns that have the key effect - patterns that resonate with, and therefore trigger, patterns latent in the genetic code. At present, we don't have ways of mapping this except by empirical observation of what interlocking sets of patterns produce the desired set of effects. The intensity, consistency, and trueness with which these patterns are delivered determines the intensity of the impact and, thus, the liklihood of persistent change.
For example, I know (from over 20 years of observation) that the specific interlocking pattern of rituals that form Temple of Thelema's First Order do reliably trigger a set of changes that appear like mutations - they are that dramatic. Individual elements of a given ritual have only flitting effect. The pattern of an entire ritual produces decisive, discernible effects. But the real fruit is in the interlocking pattern of the whole of the set of rituals.
Now, can I prove that these are from RNA action? Not directly, no. I can only say that the effects are consistent with that type of phenomena, and are produced by circumstances that are known to sometimes cause epigenetic changes. We know how to produce these effects at will - the last 15 years of discovery in genetics simply gives the first model that explains it so thoroughly. (The effects are the unlocking of capacities within individuals that do not manifest in the base line of humanity and did not exist in the particular individuals before passing through the process. They can only realistically be described as capacities latent or potential within the human species.)"
Hell yes! I agree with all of that!
Of course it's not that simple as "I'm becoming an angel!" - but the material is Becoming the ideal via Love and Will. Exciting that we have more tools to prove it and not just flowery tomes from crusty ancients. -
A note with or without relationship with the subject here (I think with). Here, at minute 51:00 it´s what I tell before about the computer simulation of evolution. There´s no RNA talking in here, but I think there could be a conexion or something with the subject. I know being a simple documentary, and without any cientific education, it could be simply easy to believe whatever general conceptions are conceived in documentaries and stuff of this kind. I mean, the important could be in the details, which are not bringed. Anyway, one is free to speculate: what if the RNA is simply the organic life mode of organization for an unique kind of process of evolution in nature, which is been observed in mathematical processes around the nature like that ones in chaos/systems theory? Just theorizing wondering.
www.dailymotion.com/video/xpxj1b_the-secret-life-of-chaos_tech#.UNBAUaz0Qwo
About the Qabalah, I think it´s far more a method for unify right and left sides of the brain for an aproaching to the thing, not only a rational steril research like could be some sorts of scientific approachments, but a far more really skepticall point of view.
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To throw something into the mix:
The currently accepted String Theory model is called M-10
It implies 10 spacial dimensions and 1 time dimension
I say imply, as according to those on the 'front lines' of String Theory that is what the math is telling them
At least, those are the mathematical structures which appear best at modeling observationAn important point is that a single time dimension is used as the modeling of two or more is extremely complex.
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@Uni_Verse said
"An important point is that a single time dimension is used as the modeling of two or more is extremely complex."
Are you implying that using a single time dimension is a weakness with this theory?
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@Pattana Gita said
"Why shouldn't time be different - perhaps not even extant in other universes?"
I'd like to hear a proposal. Different how?
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@Pattana Gita said
"Time as a closed loop system instead of an open ended system - for instance."
Does this mean that all points on the closed loop are happening simultaneously? If so, it is not really time at all, put a multitude of fixed points? I don't know -- I'm asking.
A closed loop system presupposes how many dimensions? -- I don't really understand when people talk about other dimensions. Generally, we have space-time and the applicable perception isolated to this "dimension". To clarify, are we considering space-time a dimension in this case?
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@Pattana Gita said
"- but there's a pretty good youtube video that seems to explain it. I'll have to think a bit more about how a closed time loop universe would be like."
I appreciate the video -- but I find creationism to be just as plausible...and possibly just as useful?
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@Pattana Gita said
"4) The movement and interaction between energy and gravity in spacetime and especially in the locality of matter created proto-thought and proto-mind."
Interesting. Can you further explain proto-thought and proto-mind as related to energy and gravity? And I don't mean the biomechanics (e.g. Orch-OR model, etc.
) -- are we talking the first models of awareness-of-self/self-consciousness? I guess it would be helpful to know how you define consciousness in the material plane, since that would refer to a energy/gravity portion of proto-thought/mind? Is this awareness/recognition of self or something more/less limited?@Pattana Gita said
"5) The earth had the perfect conditions for this consciousness to enter into matter and produced living beings here. i.e - quantum switching proteins were possible and could be evolved by the original mind."
Interesting. Please elaborate on "original mind". Is this like the "unmoved mover"?
I like your model and thanks for sharing it. I use something similar sometimes -- for me, it ceases to be as effective as a useable paradigm when it becomes too much like the macrocosm dictating to the microcosm -- which seems to be the running thread in all origination stories. But the creationism story definitely works with the linear time model -- which also seems to fit with reincarnation theories, etc.
The mind (in an extremely rough summation of my experience) oscillates from a quasi-creationism mythos -- free-falling through any given phenomenon (in the presence of an "Overmind") to a more solipsistic view of the world, where the world is created by the perceiver -- and this is fed back into the perception. There is a smooth point also, where mind is blotted out. Depends on the energy being worked with at the time, I guess...
Mind is a disease of semen.
All that a man is or may be is hidden therein.
Bodily functions are parts of the machine; silent, unless in dis-ease.
This "I" persisteth not, posteth not through generations, changeth momently, finally is dead.
Therefore is man only himself when lost to himself in The Charioting.There is no real belief in either of these models -- they only seem to be plausible for a time. And there is an ever-growing experience that Change is Stability. And Silence is quite Golden.
I do see a relation between health and attitude of people with a more "passive" model and those with an "active" model, and the favortism shown to one model over the other. But that's a completely different topic, huh?
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@Frater 639 said
"Are you implying that using a single time dimension is a weakness with this theory?"
No, my thoughts are more along the lines that a single direction time progression is required for coherent consciousness.
While I may propose, in many ways believe, time is non-linear in nature, at the same time I feel that linear time is necessary for most entities to retain a sense of Self.
If you were who you currently are in this moment, then the next were your incarnation from 50,000 years ago, then an incarnation from a 1,000 years in the future (from the "starting point"), the discrepancy in the consciousness and subsequent physiological make up of ones incarnation could be maddening if any sense of Self can even be retained.
At the same time:
@Pattana Gita said
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Why shouldn't time be different - perhaps not even extant in other universes?
"The implication, as I see it, being that if anything the M-10 Theory models the universe as we occupy it, not the universe as it is or some other universe whose conception if entirely foreign to us.
If anyone ever opens up a portal to another dimension, do not be the first to step through...
As the "laws" which hold you together in this one may not apply
@Pattana Gita said
"2) Matter coalesced into planets and moon and suns and asteroids and the whole sheabang of astronomical phenomena out there."
Something to take account of is that Suns would have had to form and Super-Nova before certain planets, most especially the Earth, in order for them to contain raw materials required to formulate life as we know it.
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@Uni_Verse said
"No, my thoughts are more along the lines that a single direction time progression is required for coherent consciousness.While I may propose, in many ways believe, time is non-linear in nature, at the same time I feel that linear time is necessary for most entities to retain a sense of Self.If you were who you currently are in this moment, then the next were your incarnation from 50,000 years ago, then an incarnation from a 1,000 years in the future (from the "starting point"), the discrepancy in the consciousness and subsequent physiological make up of ones incarnation could be maddening if any sense of Self can even be retained. "
Agreed. It seems to make sense that it is both. Bringing it back to quantum theory -- either being a field or a point. Depending if we're Nuit or Hadit, "I" or "Not-I", etc.
It is in the perspective -- and the conjoining of the dichotomy to grow in a given direction.