"We have nothing with the outcast"
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,
It seems that you were addressing me, so I'll answer as if you were.
@ThatNarrowFellow said
"93,
I'm not really sure that "not fitting in socially" is the same as having a self-defeatist attitude, but then, I'm not really sure what "not fitting in socially" really means.
If you mean someone who has some kind of personality disorder, like anti-social personality disorder, then I'm not confident that magical work can be of much use.
If you're saying that a person is simply regarded as being outside social circles, I expect that describes a lot of occultists.
If you're saying that someone is suffering from anxiety, or social awkwardness, then I think regular meditation can be a good step towards curing that.
If you want a more specific answer I'm afraid you'll have to clarify the question.
Love=Law
- C"
First off, my post was a statement, not a question.
Second, to clarify my position. The way I see it (and I’m often wrong, I warn you) one is outcast who thinks himself outcast. One who knows himself the master of his own universe is the master of his own universe. One who is outside social circles is not outcast unless he professes (even internally) a desire to be a part of those social circles.
As we see our reality, so it is. Some play the “I’m powerless” game, some play the “I’m powerful” game. It seems to me that the verse (and much of the chapter) is describing a way of looking at the world like “You’re not powerless, but if you want to pretend like you are then go wallow somewhere else.”
So I guess what I was getting at was that ‘outcast’ and ‘unfit’ are titles that self defeatists give themselves and not objective qualities possessed by such people.
The difference between this:
[i248.photobucket dot com/albums/gg179/AC666AC/mage.jpg]and this:
[i248.photobucket dot com/albums/gg179/AC666AC/400px-MtSorrow-Watercolor.jpg]is perspective.
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93,
I'm sorry, my post was unclear, the result of posting in the morning with friends hurrying me to take a shower and leave.
The first part of my post was directed to you, and now I get what you're saying, thanks.
The rest of it was an attempt to clarify what the original poster was asking, which is as yet unresolved.
Love=Law
- C
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@gerry456 said
"should a person who doesn't fit in socially get that aspect of himself sorted out before he embarks upon a magical path or will the former issue be solved naturally as a bi product of magical success/effort particularly on the Thelemic path?"
yeah it's my question/thread
personality disorders aside
.....y'see the BOL obviously assumes that the in-crowd are people who practice magick
i just wanted your thoughts on that passage. Someone rightly pointed out the subjective interpretation of outcast. That's it. I guesse teh "keen th eproud .beauty and strength" are similarly passages of BOL which are subjective
to me that passage about the "outcast" is directed toward magickal misanthropists
however the "jocks" and "cheerleaders" (the popular crowd) in highschool are the in-crowd right?
i don't know*that *is the question
i think it's a fascinating debate of a wide ranging substance ie is the "stamping down on the wrteched and weak" directed to the high -school jock contingents (who get to have sex with the cutest cheerleaders) in regards to computer nerds and geeks (who don't) ?
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93,
Since we are all unique, and privately each of us is mad by any conceivable consensual definition, the idea of an in-crowd is obviously a mask for a given group of people's insecurity. If a standard of achievable conformity is set up by people who want to conform to it, then they <i>can</i> conform to it, and ignore the inner promptings that keep whispering "Isn't there more to life than this?"
The jocks will be jocks, because it's easy for them, and feels safe. The geeks, ditto. Unwashed occultists, the same. The point of such cliques isn't to do with realizing the True Will, but to maintain camouflage that prevents the people <i>in</i> the in-crowd</i> from seeing what they're doing to themselves. Thus, the jocks hit non-jocks who make them aware of this, the geeks talk down to people who make them feel too geeky, and the unwashed occultists pretend they have superior wisdom to everyone else.
You can extend this up the scale as far as you want. "A stable society requires certain standards." "Normal behavior requires people to act normally." "Our country needs me to fight." "What would Jesus do?" "The Prophet taught we have to do this."
A magician, once he/she truly embarks on a magical path, is doomed. The sense of uniqueness won't disappear, but gets stronger over the years until one day (hopefully), the dam bursts.
Still, being obnoxious or exclusive towards other people isn't useful, because other people are helpers, teachers and, thankfully, sometimes friends. We can find small communities that help us grow. But if we define ourselves in terms of acceptability to some presumed or assumed standard of proper behavior, then the pillar is never 'stablished in the void. It'll just float there like a sad cloud of hopes ... rather like a microcosm of the people in an in-crowd.
93 93/93,
EM
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93,
I assumed BOL = Book of the Law. An unwashed occultist, as I visualized it, is someone whose knowledge of magick is broad, casual and shallow, and often loudly, dogmatically and argumentatively stated to the liquid accompaniment of as many cheap beers as may be available.
But feel free to refine that image as seems fit.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
Since we are all unique, and privately each of us is mad by any conceivable consensual definition, the idea of an in-crowd is obviously a mask for a given group of people's insecurity. If a standard of achievable conformity is set up by people who want to conform to it, then they <i>can</i> conform to it, and ignore the inner promptings that keep whispering "Isn't there more to life than this?"
The jocks will be jocks, because it's easy for them, and feels safe. The geeks, ditto. Unwashed occultists, the same. The point of such cliques isn't to do with realizing the True Will, but to maintain camouflage that prevents the people <i>in</i> the in-crowd</i> from seeing what they're doing to themselves. Thus, the jocks hit non-jocks who make them aware of this, the geeks talk down to people who make them feel too geeky, and the unwashed occultists pretend they have superior wisdom to everyone else.
You can extend this up the scale as far as you want. "A stable society requires certain standards." "Normal behavior requires people to act normally." "Our country needs me to fight." "What would Jesus do?" "The Prophet taught we have to do this."
A magician, once he/she truly embarks on a magical path, is doomed. The sense of uniqueness won't disappear, but gets stronger over the years until one day (hopefully), the dam bursts.
Still, being obnoxious or exclusive towards other people isn't useful, because other people are helpers, teachers and, thankfully, sometimes friends. We can find small communities that help us grow. But if we define ourselves in terms of acceptability to some presumed or assumed standard of proper behavior, then the pillar is never 'stablished in the void. It'll just float there like a sad cloud of hopes ... rather like a microcosm of the people in an in-crowd.
93 93/93,
EM"
hey
i heard the sound of a hammer hitting a nail on the head in your reply
yes BOL=Liber Al Book of Law
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"A magician, once he/she truly embarks on a magical path, is doomed. The sense of uniqueness won't disappear, but gets stronger over the years until one day (hopefully), the dam bursts. "
Great visual. By the way, talking about metaphysics while drinking lots of beer is an OK past time in my book. I understand that the conversation depends on the drinkers involved, but beer itself has nice connotations for me.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
@gerry456 said
"should a person who doesn't fit in socially get that aspect of himself sorted out before he embarks upon a magical path or will the former issue be solved naturally as a bi product of magical success/effort particularly on the Thelemic path?"
I think the person who does not fit in socially is more likely a better candidate on the magical path. To fit in means you conform to the culture, customs, and will of the group mind. However, it is a necessary skill to walk among and interact with any elements in any social situation without arising suspicion, infiltrate and accomplish the task, then go about the magickal way. If lucky, you may encounter some kindred along the way. To abstract from such chains in this incarnation or the next, the social aspect will be different each time but the magickal will and law will remain. The festering cesspool called human civilization is but another illusion. Liber AL vel Legis makes reference to this, and provides the tools to go about it.
There is a difference however between 'fitting in' and taking care of neurosis or worse, as these things can be amplified by unlocking magickal energies. Regardie recommended this highly before going too far. Maybe this is the question you are asking.
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@gerry456 said
"should a person who doesn't fit in socially get that aspect of himself sorted out before he embarks upon a magical path or will the former issue be solved naturally as a bi product of magical success/effort particularly on the Thelemic path?"
Ressurecting an old thread, deal with it.
I think a better way to look at this verse is more look at the A.'.A.'. & the ordeals that take an initiate out. The outcast & the unfit seen as the failures & the Secret Chiefs withdraw their support etc. Don't think of it as a reflection on someone's social standing or monetary income & it becomes much clearer when the Book of the Law is so violent in it's imagery.
Uranus
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might not this declaration of the law mean that we are to have nothing with out castes, Literally.
What I mean is that as I see it Thelema is not rooted in liberalism or any sort of modernism, it encourages a very strong self-empowering elitist attitude. Where as modern social and political philosophy stems from egalitarian notions than we should have empathy and compassion for the weak, the homeless, the racial minority, the mental retarded, even so far as to use Political correct language least calling a spade a spade where he can here us, upset his feelings.
Thelema is to do away with all of this, and impose harsh standards on others, those who fail to meet up with ones standards are unfit and caste out of the social order. "Kings shall be kings forever, the slaves shall serve"
Is not Liber AL, a call for extreme right wing traditionalism, even a sort of monarchy. Does not the OTO have more in common with Plato's republic and Evola's Tradition than with communism and leftist democracy?
Was it not Nietzsche who made the cut as a saint and Christ for his slave-mentality that set back the progress of the A.'.A.'. by centuries dubbed the title "Black sorcerer of Nazareth"
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I'm going to have to beg to differ. Compassion is the vice of Kings, meaning only a King can afford to exercise Compassion because he has the means above all and can afford to practice that Vice. I think Thelema transcends the idea of left & right and what you are promoting is fascism and while I have in the past made an arguement that Thelema is a sort of benign fascism that was an arguement for the sake of "devil's advocate" in order to draw attention to certain elements that were being overlooked in some places.
Misplaced charity is what Thelema is against, charity that one can not afford to give is no charity but only harming oneself. For an example, say I have enough food to feed myself and myself alone but instead of feeding myself I give the food to a homeless man and starve to death myself. That is misplaced charity because I couldn't afford to do it & suffered for it. Now say I have enough food for myself & then some. I see the same homeless man. There is nothing wrong in giving this man food. It is in stark contrast with Christ's teaching of giving EVERYTHING over and deny the self, even into detriment of the self! Liber AL also mentions beggars being kings in disguise!
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yes, it does mention kings disguised as beggars, and how does it say to treat said beggars.
If says to not feel you should be compassionate to everyone you see for fear maybe they are a kind or some one important. It says to strike low and hard, with all your might against this display of weakness. If he is a true king he will meet your challenge as an equal, if he is a pathetic self loathing slave, he will cower away in fear and die in the misery of his self pity.
Crowley's advice on beggars, is to demand they stand up and look you in the eye, and ask if you need anything. To put then to work as say a secretary, or something that aids you WILL in some way, pay them a fair wage. Or if they meet you as an equal, invite them to dinner as a friend and pay their tab.
Put any expression of weakness and humility should not be tolerated, if they want to act like a worthless outcast, do not treat then as a king who might reward you for your gifts, rather treat them as they apparently want to be treated like stray dogs, inhuman and unworthy, kick them away. Do not reward humility, but instead reward dignity, vigor, strength and discipline.
Nor is this fascist, but it is pre-modern virtues and honor not so different than one finds in Mohism and Taoism, as well as traditional monarchy.
See Crowley's letter "Groans from the padded cell"
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Hokay... sure.
I am not disagreeing with Crowley's comment but the way you put it one would just come off as an incredible asshole. Do you treat everybody like they are lesser being or do you recognize they are sleeping gods and treat them accordingly? In the example of the beggar the same thing can be done without being a total prick. Should the beggar fail? Then have no more to do with them of course because they aren't willing to help themselves.
U
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No I treat them as potentially my equal, if they came to be as an equal. If they come seeking sympathy and pity, trying to use the slave mentality formula that because they are pitiful they are worthy of my assistance, I do not respond to their faux humility that is a hypocritical expression of the WILL to power by way of a show of weakness.
The idea is to meet others king to king, and to prove equality in battles, be it of physical prowess or wits. Success is proof of worthiness, failures are left in the dust. Let them rise up when they are ready to meet you again, but it is not wise to aid your opponent in victory over you. Does the lion give the hyena an advantage over itself it hunting or handicap itself to allow fair access to game?
"The morality of slaves says. ”You are equal to me; we are both the same”; the morality of masters says. “ We are not equal; we are not the same; become equal to me; then we will be the same.” The morality of slaves reduces all to bondage; the morality of masters encourages all to attain, if they can, the heights of freedom." (Marauders)
Back to the lion example. What sort of lion would have pity for the lamb and refuse to eat it, depriving itself of its nourishment and its WILL? Then what sort of lamb seeing the lions "noble self sacrifice" would take pity on the beast and offer its life to feed its hunger, thus the lamb is deprived of its WILL as a lamb. When lions feel guilty about being lions and sheep feel guilty about being sheep, you have Christian slave morality, the formula of Osiris, not Thelemic Law of the strong and formula of the solar hawk.
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Here is a quote from the O.T.O. Newsletter Vol. III, #10-11, Spring 1980 e.v taken directly from On Knowing Aleister Crowley Personally by Hymenaeus Alpha 777.
"Crowley was in the tradition of the radical-conservative. On the one hand there is nothing more radical than Thelema. On the other hand he was a monarchist. He could never forgive Edward VIII for having abdicated his throne to marry a commoner. After all, the office of the Royal Consort had been approved in European royalty for centuries."
It is certain that Crowley in his confessions states The Law can apply under any sort of political system. However he makes clear also that his inclination is towards the tradition of monarchy with presumably the nobility being represented by the Adept in magick and the grade of Magus expressing the occasional king who re-aligns the rituals and society with the times equating to the Prophets in Cloud upon the sanctuary, Where as the Magister maintains the Temple or the social order that has been established by the previous Magus.
The A.'.A.'. being a sort of training system to increase the chance of a noble "genius" or "christ" developing out of the base substance of the common riff-raff. Not transmuting them into geniuses so much as providing opportunity for the natural genius to reveal themselves to the world.
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Eh, Crowley can be a radical conservative. I tend to be one of those people who feel there is a time for liberal & a time for conservative ideals for practicalities sake. I tend to be a libertarian who votes democrat though because the Republicans have been eroding our civil liberties and trying to scare us into submission. ON a personal scale & true politics I am a libertarian autocrat. I think voting leads to idiotic nonsense but then again, autocracy can lead to Stalin...
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radical conservative has nothing to do with republicans or democrats.
Its an ideology in which people are not equal, some people just are by nature superior to others and that those who are superior should be recognized and they are natural and rightful rulers of the masses.Naturally leading to a monarch, who is at the top of the hierarchy and the touch stone by which social class it judge is how well ones natural virtues match those of the monarch.
The idea being that the initiated kings are in touch with the transcended order of the universe and thus they relate those bellow them who are more and more materialist and thus in touch with the physical temporary earth and less in touch with the eternal transcendent values. A king being by birth, training and initiation a superior being to the man of the earth, the serfs. Whose life is dedicated to the physical soil and requires all transcendent spiritual influence to be granted from higher castes, ultimately the source is the secret chiefs and the King who is in touch with them, with the 3rd order, or the transcendent, the Kingdom of heaven as the Jews call it.
It seem a grave misunderstanding of the nature of Thelema to interpret it as liberal or new-age. It is in fact a cry against such ideals as democracy and equality. That the old order by wiped away in force and fire, than new Kings shall come to the throne and with them all new people, races, and nations. Where each individual far from existing in aimless so called "liberty", is instead aware of ones place in the transcendent order and works to establish that role on earth, to cerate the divine order in the world. To realize oneself with purpose unassuaged, not to be without conditions as is the ideal of liberalism, but rather to be without restrictions or limits on what one can do or become, that is without a ceiling or the shackles of imposed equality.
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Liberalism has nothing to do with democracy... again though I am a libertarian autocrat, not the same thing. I just recognize there are times when, IN THE USA, as we currently stand governmentally, that there are times for Republicans & times for Democrats. Until we can have a Thelemic form of government we must learn to work with the government we already have in order to effect the changes in society we want. Example, if one wants marijuana legalized... the democrats are high on that idea. LOL. If you support gay right to marry? democrats. Right now the Democrats represent a Thelemic ideal more than the Republicans (the buyouts were started by Bush). If you want health care, which is a RIGHT, not a privelege, Democrats. You want small government etc though, neither party is indicative of that. The only way we will have a Thelemic government etc. is by fighting to have our own country. Not gonna happen in the States anytime soon so work with what you got.