Luna, Beloved of the Emperor
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"...All these old letters of my Book are aright; but [Tzaddi] is not the Star. This also is secret: my prophet shall reveal it to the wise." - Liber AL, I:57
I do not wish to sound foolish, but I have a fairly elementary question.
I have seen several Thelemic TOLs on different sites that have the paths of Tzaddi & Heh actually switched.
Are the paths to be actually switched or are the letters merely meant to be switched in the Tarot?
Should not Tzaddi remain between Yesod & Netzach & simply the Tarot attributions switch?"Thou and I are beloved of the Emperor." - Liber VII, VI:20(Moon)
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Woman Girt with a Sword said
"I have seen several Thelemic TOLs on different sites that have the paths of Tzaddi & Heh actually switched.
Are the paths to be actually switched or are the letters merely meant to be switched in the Tarot?Should not Tzaddi remain between Yesod & Netzach & simply the Tarot attributions switch?"
That's a really great question, and you have it right. (I'm moving this to the Qabalah section, to keep it more on topic.)
The Paths stay in the same place. That is, Tzaddi is the path that opens from Yesod to Netzach, and Heh is the path that opens from Tiphereth to Chokmah. But most of the attributions are switched. Tzaddi (from 9 to 7) is red in the King Scale, corresponds to The Emperor, etc.; and Heh (from 6 to 2) is violet in the King Scale, corresponds to The Star, etc.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The Paths stay in the same place. That is, Tzaddi is the path that opens from Yesod to Netzach, and Heh is the path that opens from Tiphereth to Chokmah. But most of the attributions are switched. Tzaddi (from 9 to 7) is red in the King Scale, corresponds to The Emperor, etc.; and Heh (from 6 to 2) is violet in the King Scale, corresponds to The Star, etc."
Thanks Jim...you just saved me a lot of reprogramming!
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93
I have always understood the same - that Tzaddi remained between Netzach & Yesod while its Tarot attribution switched from Atu XVII to Atu IV - but in the Book of Thoth The Master Therion says of Atu IV:
"His authority is derived from Chokmah, the creative Wisdom, the Word, and is exerted upon Tiphareth, the organized man."
I know that Crowley was, at times, prone to blinds - could this be one of them?
93 93/93
616
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It think it is more likey confusion - old habits - possibly even grabbing something written long before (despite his claims that the book was dashed off without parentage).
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I'm not quite sure how to phrase this complex question, but here goes.
Liber AL 1:57 (.... All these old letters of my Book are aright; but [Tzaddi] is not the Star....)
The partial quote above seems to indicate that there is a one and only "true" correlation between Tarot and Hebrew letters. But it would seem that there are many ways in which Hebrew letters can be attributed to Tarot cards.
Out there in the wide world of Tarot there seem to be many different Tarot/Hebrew systems. Many Tarot de Marseilles users that I have spoken to seem quite annoyed by the Golden Dawn attributions and the "seemingly" baseless and naive contention that Eliphas Levi knew the real attributions but chose not to print them. As a matter of fact, Levi's correspondences are widely used in Continental Europe, where they seem to be the norm.
So where does this leave Liber AL 1:57? Has modern Tarot research turned this bold statement into a liability for Thelema?
If, on the other hand, other Tarot / Hebrew letter correlations have some merit, how can the old GD attribution be considered a mistake that wasn't picked up?
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@Her said
"The partial quote above seems to indicate that there is a one and only "true" correlation between Tarot and Hebrew letters. But it would seem that there are many ways in which Hebrew letters can be attributed to Tarot cards."
It is arguable in theory, yes, that many models are possible.
The main question is: Against which Qabalistic map was Tarot created? That gives its initial message. Secondly, what is the particular message that the Inner School wishes to communicate to humanity as a whole at this point in history? It requires their language base to understand the message.
Tarot is a specific instruction set sent forth by the highest adepts to communicate a particular body of doctrine. From that perspective, there is certainly a single "right" way, i.e., a code book for the encoded message.
"Out there in the wide world of Tarot there seem to be many different Tarot/Hebrew systems."
Sure. Doesn't mean they're right, right?
"Many Tarot de Marseilles users that I have spoken to seem quite annoyed by the Golden Dawn attributions and the "seemingly" baseless and naive contention that Eliphas Levi knew the real attributions but chose not to print them."
I agree with them in part. I'm not convinced that he knew the correct attributions.
"As a matter of fact, Levi's correspondences are widely used in Continental Europe, where they seem to be the norm."
So where does this leave Liber AL 1:57? Has modern Tarot research turned this bold statement into a liability for Thelema?"
I don't consider what you reference to be "modern Tarot research." I think it's a persistence in a pre-G.D. early 19th Century model.
"If, on the other hand, other Tarot / Hebrew letter correlations have some merit, how can the old GD attribution be considered a mistake that wasn't picked up?"
There is a passage in the Zohar that states pretty clearly that the real nature of Tzaddi was intentionally hidden and wouldn't be disclosed for quite some time.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Tarot is a specific instruction set sent forth by the highest adepts to communicate a particular body of doctrine. From that perspective, there is certainly a single "right" way, i.e., a code book for the encoded message."
So basically 1:57 could be interpreted to mean, "your current Tarot correspondence model is fine. I can communicate with you through this. But it will need one minor change to make the syntax perfect."
Other Tarot - Hebrew correlations are still valid in their own right, but they are not the specific symbolic language used by the author of The Book of the Law. If you want to understand that book you have to understand the particular Tarot language used within it. In that sense it is "correct".
@Jim Eshelman said
"I agree with them in part. I'm not convinced that he knew the correct attributions."
So you think that Eliphas Levi's part in the creation myth of the Golden Dawn is just that, a myth? He was simply used as an authority figure by the founders of the Golden Dawn to give their fledgling movement the seal of legitimacy. And, most importantly, he was dead. You can place any words you like in a dead mans mouth.
I suppose this explains why some people feel a little aggrieved by some aspects of the Golden Dawn inspired traditions.
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@Her said
"So basically 1:57 could be interpreted to mean, "your current Tarot correspondence model is fine. I can communicate with you through this. But it will need one minor change to make the syntax perfect.""
That's always been my understanding of it.
"Other Tarot - Hebrew correlations are still valid in their own right, but they are not the specific symbolic language used by the author of The Book of the Law."
Or, for that matter, the Inner School in general.
Clarification: IMHO alternate models are "right" only in the "Hey, you can make this shit up any way you want it for your own personal use" sense, not in any objective sense. Tarot isn't a blank slate on which to project "whatever" - it was crafted by initiated hands to encode a specific body of doctrine. It's a book, written in a particular language. To attempt to read a book in a different language than that in which it is written is... well, a challenge!
"So you think that Eliphas Levi's part in the creation myth of the Golden Dawn is just that, a myth? He was simply used as an authority figure by the founders of the Golden Dawn to give their fledgling movement the seal of legitimacy. And, most importantly, he was dead. You can place any words you like in a dead mans mouth.
"Actually, I think the Cypher Mss. came through MacKenzie's hands and, therefore, the odds are pretty high that Levi knew of them and maybe passed them to him. If that's true, then it's the strongest indication that he knew the correct model. - As for anything else, sure, Levi's name was bandied about to show the body of tradition from which their teachings originated, and to stengthen their own standing.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Tarot isn't a blank slate on which to project "whatever" - it was crafted by initiated hands to encode a specific body of doctrine. It's a book, written in a particular language."
Jim, could you clarify your use of the word Tarot here? Are you specifically making reference to the 18th/19th century Occult Tarot, or Tarot in general? I find it a little hard to believe that "initiated adepts" had a hand in creating a card game in 13th century Italy to convey the "initiated doctrine" that we know today. Especially when you consider that older Tarots often bear little resemblance to modern Tarot.
It seems to me that the 18th / 19th century occultists projected their qabalistic system onto a conveniently structured pack of playing cards.
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@Her said
"Jim, could you clarify your use of the word Tarot here? Are you specifically making reference to the 18th/19th century Occult Tarot, or Tarot in general? I find it a little hard to believe that "initiated adepts" had a hand in creating a card game in 13th century Italy to convey the "initiated doctrine" that we know today. Especially when you consider that older Tarots often bear little resemblance to modern Tarot."
I accept the handed-down history that Tarot was quietly created around 1300 and leaked into Europe in the years following to be preserved by popularizing it as a game.
I haven't thought very hard about the early Italian packs but have tended to think that they were early misfires, blinds, whatever - pretty quickly corrected.
But - whether one accepts the earlier origin or not - at least by the time Tarot settled into an essentially stable form of 22 trumps, 16 court cards, and 10 numbered cards, it was Tarot as we know it.
"It seems to me that the 18th / 19th century occultists projected their qabalistic system onto a conveniently structured pack of playing cards."
I argued that point briefly in the introductory pages of Liber Theta. Very briefly: It is inconceivable that the existence of a popular, well-known, and widely disseminated set of symbols consisting of 22 things, 10 x 4 things, and 4 x 4 things would not have caught the attention of 15th, 16th, and 17th Century Hermeticists who were rampant, prolific, and extremely well-versed in Kabbalah. Anyone with even a modicum of exposure and a healthy interest in the subject would have seen the Kabbalistic pattern even if it hadn't been there previously. I happen to think it did pre-exist that era - but, even if it didn't, by 1600 there would have been at least hundreds of people who would have independently created it.
And yet there isn't a single word about it in all of their voluminous writings from those three centuries. Not one that I can find! As it is inconceivable that they wouldn't have thought of this and run with it, then the only conclusion left to me that there was a secret tradition which was protected. The absence of any mention is, in this case, damning against the premise that no such esoteric tradition existed.
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I was a Medieval Studies minor as an undergrad. I put in many hours of research on this subject and there is almost no scholarship to be found. The art of the cards and metaphysical philosophy of the older decks clearly seem to fit into the Medieval period when compared to other works of art of that time. I would have to say, religious alignment and the power of the Inquisition prior to the "Age of Reason" must have had some effect. Perhaps all the documents are buried deep in the Vatican? Regardless, I have to agree the hermetic cards go way back into history. And must have been preserved through a secret oral tradition until modern times. Many traditions have done the same.