Incarnating from outside the human stream
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Aum418 said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Edward Mason said
"My question is, to what extent may such entry into the stream of human incarnation still be happening? Do angels still hop into corporeal existence at times? "I've known several people that I've been sure were in their first human incarnation - the prior one having been some variety of Elemental. (In a few cases, the particular form was likely an animal rather than the immaterial kind.)"
No offense, but bullshit. How could you ever possibly know this without huge amounts of doubt?"
How could you possibly ever know anything without huge amounts of doubt. The fact that a person doesn't have a sense of, say, sight shouldn't make them doubt that someone else can see.
"There are innumerable arguments against reincarnation"
Which I'm not going to rehash or enter into. My experience confirms to me, with certainty matching or exceeding that of any other certainty in the whole range of my experience, that reincarnation is a simple fact. Take it or leave it, I'm not going to get dragged into that discussion.
PS - "Bullshit" and "no offense" are mutually exclusive. You intended offense. At least own it."
Bullshit is a word for delineating where you think people are full of hot air. The point is: no offense to your faith in afterlife/reincarnation, but I think your claims are bullshit. You can take personal offense all you like.
IAO131
-
"AUM418 Wrote: Its not possible to prove or disprove this comprehensively. What do you gain in believing this? What reasons do you have for thinking that any quality is NOT tied ot the brain and not demolished in, say, a stroke or brain lesion or physical death? "
It's called the soul. Your previous post makes it sound like you're an atheist. That may not be true, but if it is, why are you on this forum? What would YOU gain from being here? More importantly, what perception/intuition of your own - not from what you've read - makes you think Jim's claims are "bullshit?" Enlighten me. Maybe then it won't seem like your remark about "bullshit" is just your reaction to something you can't accept.
-
@Nudor said
"Your previous post makes it sound like you're an atheist. That may not be true, but if it is, why are you on this forum?"
I'm an atheist every now and then. It is, in fact, during my atheistic periods when I am most likely to see the the Face of God peek through the veil of illusion. For this reason, I hardily recommend the practice of atheism to all Thelemites. Conversely, I think a Thelemite forum like this one is the healthiest place for an atheist to hang out.
-
93,
I've tried to be an atheist for years, but like rather like gmugmble, I've not found it's working out the way I wanted. All I've done is end up stretching my concept of What it might be that I don't want to believe in.
To hold to any specific position on metaphysical matters often seems to me to be creating a bulwark for the ego. Ideas are produced by the mind solely for subsequent revision as a result of further input via the Neshamah.
Crowley, speaking of his own past lives (<i>Confessions</i>, Cap. 86) makes some awkwardly contradictory observations. But while insisting he won't make a dogmatic statement, he does state in a footnote:
""...my Ape reminded me of how much of these past lives was spent in Sicily and North Africa; and that, when my present lfie came to an end (of a sort; all the forces which had till then acted upon me having been worked out) I drifted quite aimlessly to that part of the world, as if my unconsciousness, its labours accomplished, had automatically turned its face towards home!""
And he states in the main text that "There are also some fairly strong arguments for the actuality such memories." He clearly found the utility of believing in reincarnation to be greater than the utility of doctrinaire skepticism.
I've never been able to reach an <i>intellectually</i> satisfying conclusion about reincarnation. But I find that following the As-If principle is much more productive in terms of creative ideas and accessing psychic energy than wasting brainpower on trying to settle the pros and cons of the mathematics of global demographics. So, I end up with 25 per cent of me unsure on the whole idea, 15 per cent convinced it's nonsense, and the remaining 60 percent secretly convinced it contains some profound truths about not just how I became the way I am, but about how the continuity of all existence expresses itself through time and space.
The question about angels came from a discussion with a friend who is convinced of angelic incarnation; though I suspect he and I might have different conceptions about the nature and role of angels. Regardless, I found the notion triggered some complex and interesting reactions within me as well as some heat and steam on this forum. Exploring it was more productive than rejecting the notion out of hand.
The question, it seems to me, boils down to an enquiry into our own root nature. We can form definitive conclusions about that, but as noted above, such apple-carts are regularly uprooted for us by greater wisdom than our intellects appear to possess.
93 93/93,
EM
-
@Nudor said
"Your previous post makes it sound like you're an atheist. That may not be true, but if it is, why are you on this forum?"
There's a lot of worship in Thelema. Belief, I'd say, not so much...
Also: What's the ultimate aim of an A.'.A.'. Exempt Adept? After you've identified your full Self as completely as possible with the highest divinity that you're capable of conceiving... you've got to annihilate that divine Self! At that point, atheism isn't so much a personal choice. It's direct experience!
Steve
-
Steven 93,
Steven Cranmer wrote:
"After you've identified your full Self as completely as possible with the highest divinity that you're capable of conceiving... you've got to annihilate that divine Self! At that point, atheism isn't so much a personal choice. It's direct experience! "
I'm still working on annhilating the divine Self. In most quarters, I actually find more belief than worship in Thelema, though I agree it would be better (more practical?) if the opposite were true.
"Allah's the atheist: he owns no Allah." But there is <i>still</i> 'Allah' in the sense of omnipresent sacredness, at least as I read that line. I've always felt Crowley used the word 'atheist' more to clear people's heads of the idea of Big Daddy than to dismiss the concept of sacred awe entirely.
There would still be change and recurrence happening, which I'd assume encompassed the completion and conditional returning to be of specific phenomena within the infinite. (Jeez, that's a lotta syllables in one sentence). Reincarnation would be one manifestation of that process.
93 93/93,
EM
-
@Steven Cranmer said
"There's a lot of worship in Thelema. Belief, I'd say, not so much..."
93 Steve,
I am reminded of MJK's words in the liner note of AEnima:
"[...]beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. a non functional mind is clinically dead. believe in nothing."
93 93/93
616
-
@gmugmble said
"
@Nudor said
"Your previous post makes it sound like you're an atheist. That may not be true, but if it is, why are you on this forum?"I'm an atheist every now and then. It is, in fact, during my atheistic periods when I am most likely to see the the Face of God peek through the veil of illusion. For this reason, I hardily recommend the practice of atheism to all Thelemites. Conversely, I think a Thelemite forum like this one is the healthiest place for an atheist to hang out."
So what do you think the difference is between an Atheist and a Thelemite? Anyone can feel free to answer -- not just gmugmble.
-
Purr Nuit everything is "divided for love's sake, for the joy of union." I see it as Deity or the Higher manifesting out into the Lower in joy of self permutation (like playing different musical riffs or melodies). The initiation process of getting connected back to the divine should then be seen as a fun game, rather than direly serious all the time, but always in devotion.
@Aum418 said
"
There are innumerable arguments against reincarnation (like the billions ofh umans that exist now compared to thousands & millions in past millenia). Aside from this, if you destroy the brain, all functions ofy our thinkign are destroyed, so basically anything you think of 'you' CANT exist beyond the material body."I see none of your arguments here as problems. Human population increase does not disprove it, as there were always more animals than humans. Your second point I find really weird, as "you" don't even exist beyond the abyss. Deity incarnates within to without, so what if one of its manifestations gets mangled, it just withdraws. I think you are confusing the permanent with the transient here; deity is pure consciousness/sentience/awareness and it exists beyond all transience. As I say, "you" as the ego persona don't even exist above the abyss, much less after death. Let's say an Adept lost the faculties of his brain; they may block the soul spark from expressing itself elegantly but so what, the point is things askew the temporary and not the permanent, the outer and not the inner: so if you got screwed up and went into a coma the awareness in you would just retreat.
Here is an excellent article which sums reincarnation theory up nicely:
I like the God, Spirit, Soul, Body division. You can in a Buddhistic vein see all of these as separations of the One, or you can see yourself as the persona trying to re-connect back, etc.
-
@Edward Mason said
" ... reincarnation... I end up with 25 per cent of me unsure on the whole idea, 15 per cent convinced it's nonsense, and the remaining 60 percent secretly convinced it contains some profound truths "
"THE MAGICAL MEMORY"
"Where do we come from before we are born? Where do we go when we die? These questions are not to be answered by the reasoning mind, but rather by direct experience. A continuity of consciousness through the process called reincarnation is the generally accepted theory throughout much of the world, but this exists primarily as a belief system and is rarely based on direct experience.The obvious question is, "Why can I not remember my previous lives?" The esoteric tradition tells us that this memory is stored at the Soul (Causal) level [Tiphereth, Geburah, Chesed], and to remember those previous lives you must contact this higher level of your own consciousness.
"Sometimes seers will offer to read your past lives for you, but such readings are often worse than useless, for if they contain false information (and they usually do!), an illusionary thoughtform can be created which will cause endless havoc. This is something each individual must do for themselves.
"All of your physical, emotional, mental, and social imprinting and programming is lost with the death of your brain. That which remains is the subject of our search into the Magical Memory.
"Some people do not accept the concept of previous existences and will explain past life "memories" as the tapping into the genetic archives inherited from our parents. There is no need to discount this view, especially in view of the fact that those previous experiences are going to be recapitulated (re-experienced) in this lifetime. Tradition tells us that the entire course of our previous lifetimes is rebuilt and re-experienced at an extremely rapid rate beginning with the union of egg and sperm, and continuing forward through the animal-like stages of prenatal development to birth. The initial experiences of life are re-creations that continue the major events which shaped our consciousness in prior lives.
"We all look forward to that specific day when our consciousness realizes that the pre-determined experiences have all been acted out and we are truly now moving forward into new territory.
"Whether stated in metaphysical terminology such as "previous lives," or expressed through the psychological concepts of "imprinting" and "conditioning," the Magical Memory still remains a source of information relating to unexplained behavior patterns, and we maintain that it must be apprehended by direct experience.
"The objective in searching the Magical Memory is not to remember that one was Cleopatra, Joan d'Arc, Osiris, or Attila the Hun, or even to remember that life as a wretched cripple, or the one where death came with the plague at age twelve. The objective is to retrieve information that explains yourself to yourself in the here-and-now.
"The overall record of everyone's career, including the rise and fall of civilizations, is found in the Akashic Records."
- Blazing Diamond@Edward Mason said
"The question, it seems to me, boils down to an enquiry [inquiry] into our own root nature. "
"THE SPIRITUAL AURA"
"Beyond the blazing limit of the causal aura, and it does blaze and radiate in dynamic, metallic colors at the edges, lies the Spiritual Aura. Some readers claim there are two levels here, called the spiritual and the cosmic, but since they appear to be interchangeable and indistinguishable from each other, we will limit our discussion to the concept of a single spiritual aura."Not everyone has an active energy field beyond the causal aura. Those who show activity in this area have certain characteristics in common:
- (1) They do not feel comfortable with life on planet Earth,
- (2) They do not think like most of their fellow humans, and
- (3) They exhibit some psychic power or unusual mental ability.
Colors and symbols in the spiritual energy field are not earned by activity on planet Earth, but rather are the signs of extraterrestrial consciousness. Essentially, this means that these people evolved part of their consciousness somewhere else in the Universe (don't ask me where - it's not important) and then entered the field of human incarnation. This is somewhat different than people who started the evolution of their consciousness from the dust and water of terra firma. It truly is a case of being a "stranger in a strange land." No matter what they do, they cannot escape the fact that they do not share a common evolutionary background with their fellows. Usually, they will not speak of such matters unless they recognize similar characteristics in another person. Then, encouraged by the fact that they will not be thought of as insane, they will speak freely to that person.
Except for "walk-ins."
"Walk-ins" claim to be visitors from another realm who have taken possession of a human body (usually with the permission of the previous inhabitant who wanted to leave anyway). Let us consider that there are no walk-ins, but rather that they are "wake-ups." Countless mystics down through the ages have written of how their spiritual endeavors brought them to a point where they no longer existed, and something else took over. Contrast this concept with the description of crossing the abyss.
It seems likely that most self-proclaimed "walk-ins" are people who made this transference of consciousness from the personality or soul to the Higher Self above the abyss, and then choose to claim extra-terrestrial takeover status. In fact, it only seems like it is a separate extraterrestrial entity, for it is simply their "waking-up" to the consciousness of the spiritual aura/body which was already there before they were born. It was just completely hidden beyond the Veil of the Abyss."
-Spiritual Acupuncture -
@Edward Mason said
"To hold to any specific position on metaphysical matters often seems to me to be creating a bulwark for the ego."
This is very good to remember. Only the Real is Real, so be careful to only let it influence your decision making. Often debating points of philosophy and making mental belief decisions are just an obscuration of the res simplex, the simple fact or Truth. I would suggest reading Nisargadatta Maharaj as an example of someone who cuts through all the "fancy talk" to the Real notably well. Being rigid in your philosophy and stubborn in your views are basically attachments to the unreal, let it all go. It is this very letting go of all false self conception that can be seen as the work of Initiation; the abyss experience of meeting the Choronzon principle represents the final permanent shattering of illusion and binding oneself to the Real. Being flooded with the blissful kalas of Nuit > picking sides on some meaningless argument.
I really do not like the term atheist, it means "against God." How can one label oneself that and really be healthy spiritually? I think even the word God is psychologically linked to imply the higher self. Most of the people I have seen calling themselves atheists are rebelling against Christianity and are trapped in a Reason-based Hell, basically denying their source of inspiration. I think it's easiest to both believe in Gods and to also see them as aspects of the One Great Self of Creation. It is fun and magickal to prostrate oneself toward Hathor, pour devotion to star arched Nuit, etc. It is psychologically humbling and healthy I think, while keeping in mind that since one is a part one must be the all.
-
@Frater Pantha said
"So what do you think the difference is between an Atheist and a Thelemite? Anyone can feel free to answer"
IMO the distinguishing line is a thin one. 666's statement "There is no god but man"(LXXVII) has dual connotations. On the one hand, there is a clear designation of Man as the sole discerner of order in Nature(a statement that is highly compatible with the tenets of Atheism). OTOH, there seems to also be a designation of Man as the manifest-countenance of God, 'ZOIR ANPIN'(which has definite Theistic implications). This same duality can be seen in the A.'.A.'. system itself...in the beginning stages God-as-Other is emphasized in the relations between initiate & HGA, but once the Abyss has been traversed the idea of God becomes much more akin to that of Theravada Buddhism(i.e., there is no God but Self) which also seems quite compatible with Atheism.
616