The Strange Egyptomaniacal Origin of Hadit
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@Aum418 said
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"Would you say the Nuit->Hadit->RHK progression in Liber Legis represents an elucidation of Akhenaton's reformation of the Egyptian religion so that access to Ra is no longer a priviledge of only royalty?"How does that progression have anything to do with Ra not being the priviledge?
Even further: is Ra no longer a priviledge of only royalty?
"Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known." (I:10)
It always has been open to everyone and it always has been the strong and enduring to attained thereto."
Previously, only Egyptian priests and royalty had access to the magical formulas to assist in the afterlife in reuniting with Ra and thereby reinserting themselves back into the cosmic cycle.
The Hadit->RHK progression suggests a formula of the sun-seed in everyone that develops into the active form of RHK. Where the Egyptians seemed to think that the fortunate deceased souls eventually made it to the same place (Ra), the Hadit->RHK progression suggests that everyone has the potential to become individual suns. Even science tells us that stars can become suns.
That's what I meant by suggesting the Nuit-Hadit-RHK progression was an elaboration of Akhenaton's monotheism.
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I generally agree with Jim's refutation of Tarotica's conclusions, but I do have to quibble with the following...
@Jim Eshelman said
"One either finds the witness credible or not credible. If that particular witness is not credible on this particular topic, then we're all wasting time on anything we're doing on this forum."
My jokey response would be "speak for yourself, kemosabe." Seriously, though, it's only of secondary importance to me if Crowley felt the need to prevaricate about the Cairo Marvel Story. Would the impact and sublimity of the contents of the Book of the Law be lessened if it turned out to be automatic writing after a few too many puffs on the hookah? I don't think so.
Now, would it weaken my opinion of Crowley's character if I found out with certainty that he knowingly lied about "audible dictation" and whatnot? Probably. But Liber Apotheosis already demonstrated a lot about Crowley's character, too.
But should character enter into this? In my work, I reference the useful scientific discoveries of Heisenberg and Debye without being overly concerned that they worked for the Nazis. (Sorry for the potentially inflammatory example... I can't think of a better one...)The idea of accepting the Book "without altering a single letter" is a separate matter, I think. Seems only fair not to muck with an original source. Publishing the photostats of the manuscript along with the typescript is important to forestall inevitable "drifts" in typography and meaning over the years. Also, all of the putative 4th chapters that I've seen are kind of kooky.
@Jim Eshelman said
"But claiming acceptance of The Book of the Law (the foundation of Thelema) is, at best, hypocritical if disregards this primal point that The Book makes about itself at least twice."
Many statements in the Book appear to be non-literal. Years of study and discernment may lead to conviction about which verses are literal and which are not, but I'm not ready (yet??) to accept someone else's word on which are which.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The root postulate of Thelema is "Aiwass dictated The Book of the Law to Aleister Crowley, and The Book is to be accepted without changing it insomuch even as the style of a letter.""
Strangely, I do accept the above. I also think it's most likely that Crowley truly experienced the events as he reported them. My interpretation of those experiences is different from his, though, and I'm certain that Thelema is a big enough "tent" for that. (The major area of wriggle-room is the question: "Who or what is Aiwass?") I'm extremely skeptical that the reception of the Book, or the contents of the Book itself, comprise any kind of "proof" of supernatural beings. Doesn't change my love for the poetry, power, and practical usefulness of the Book!
Steve
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@h2h said
"You, on the other hand, state that 1) AC’s fidelity to the Stele is not important and 2) what is important is his fidelity to the instructions of Aiwaz. "
Actually, my point was that Aiwass' infidelity to the stele is important only to the extent that it shows a departure.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"You're acting like you've discovered the lost map to an ancient native American golden city, but your vast disclosure is about as important as, "Hey, my single male neighboor is starting to have Tampons show up in his garbage every Wednesday.""
I've seen this criticism from a number of people, who seem compelled in spite of this alleged unimportance and irrelevance to continue to post lengthy replies to my article and posts.
The interest level denies its lack of importance. So does the level of concern (to put it politely) on the part of some of the people trying to discredit what I am saying.
@Jim Eshelman said
"So, just for the record: All of your supposition above is your spin on my story. It isn't my story and I'm not party to it."
You're not party to your alleged conversation with Lon? I think my statements concerning it are not "spin", but reasonable inferences and questions.
If Lon admits OTO was aware of "that one", and presumably what it meant, then why would Heidrick and others concoct a false hieroglyphic explanation of it?
Jim, is this the first time you've heard of Heidrick's "Ba-Hadit" explanation? Or his claim that the "misspelling" was on the stele?
@Jim Eshelman said
"(But anyone who thinks there was a Great Secret Collusion & Alliance between Lon DuQuette and Bill Heidrick in 1979-80 has missed most of the subtext of O.T.O. history of that time."
Where did I say anything about a collusion between those two in 1979-80?
Or for that matter in any particular year? My first knowledge of Heidrick's theory occurred in 1995.
My only knowledge of what Lon thought and when comes from his own published words, which I've mentioned, and your claim about a conversation you had with him, apparently back in 1979-80.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Lon and Bill would have to speak for themselves."
I contacted Lon and told him about what you said. He hasn't replied back with any comment. And Bill publicly declared he had nothing more to say on the matter 10 years ago. I think he's stuck to that.
Seems this is a sensitive matter for them.
@Jim Eshelman said
"For myself: I also refer frequently to Hadit being on the stele."
But you don't blame hieroglyphics for that, do you?
And, it's one thing to say it to yourself. It's quite another to make a public representation of this as fact, and without any explanation of what exactly you mean.
@Jim Eshelman said
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LOL, trying to get good quotes out of me?"Don't seem to have to try, Jim. You're happy to provide them.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I didn't say they are setting up straw soldiers, I said you are."
Actually, you said that respecting my quoting the OTO Grand Lodge website contradicting what you said about the non-Egyptian nature of the Thelemic deities.
So, if I was setting up a straw soldier in that case, it would have been OTO's opinion—which however on that point I wasn't attempting to knock down at all. I did give you an opportunity to do so, but you seem to have thought better of it.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't mind that you're writing fiction"
I know. If this was "Chemical Wedding", we'd all have a big laugh, and know it doesn't matter in the least.
No, you mind that I'm writing facts.
@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't use the word "heretical" very often in referring to Thelemic topics, and this probably doesn't reach "bizarre." Just seriously uninformed."
OK, so is the OTO Grand Lodge Website seriously uninformed on this point too?
@Jim Eshelman said
"You aren't worth the bother"
You're sure writing a lot of words for something not worth the bother.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Please reread and then ask specific questions if necessary."
OK.
What else did you and Lon talk about respecting "Hadit" and its presence or lack of same on the stele?
And did you ever discuss this matter with other OTO members, such as Heidrick or Bill Breeze? If so, what was said about it?
@Jim Eshelman said
"I have no problem with your facts."
Well, it's good you acknowledge I have some, given you wrote above I was just writing "fiction".
@Jim Eshelman said
"It's when you start putting interpretations on your facts that you start moving from solid ground."
I have repeatedly posed my points about OTO's "conspiracies" as questions. But they are questions raised upon reasonable suspicions, given the facts.
If you disagree, then explain why we should think OTO's failure to explain this "Hadit" question in plain terms (acknowledging the error AND the false hieroglyphic explanation) is innocent.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The facts, in and of themselves, have no particular meaning."
The fact Heidrick and others in OTO have been telling us something about "Hadit" that isn't true has no meaning?
Why is that?
@Jim Eshelman said
"You then put meaning on them, and your meaning is contentious, baiting, and self-aggrandizing."
How so?
@Jim Eshelman said
"Then there is no Thelema and we're all idiots to begin with; because if this is true, then The Book wasn't literally translated by Aiwass and taken down by Nuit's prophet in a form that must be preserved without changing so much as the style of a letter. And all the copies should be burned."
They should be burned?
Why is that?
Because you would have wasted your time believing in a silly story?
Jim, do you really believe there was a spirit entity (or Secret Chief) called Aiwass that translated Liber AL for Crowley to transcribe in 1904?
What is your evidence for believing that?
@Jim Eshelman said
"without altering a single letter"
And you really think that happened? In spite of Crowley plainly saying he had to edit the thing afterward because he didn't "hear" some of it, and because the paraphrase part wasn't even recorded in the Working since he could add that later? Note that Aiwass in other words would have acted like a politician talking to a speechwriter, piecing together things that he supposedly agreed with but did not in fact write himself.
Again, to a skeptic, what this points to is a deliberate act of imaginative literary creation on the part of Crowley, not a praeternatural intervention from timeless cosmic guardians.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes - its teachings. Not necessarily its academia. One has to embrace and live The Book of the Law for its instructions to be demonstrably true."
That isn't what Crowley said. He said it contained elements which should prove convincing even to skeptics, and to people who hadn't lived one day of its instructions.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The basis for our accepting this is that we had a first-hand witness"
Actually, you had two first-hand witnesses. If the Working was so convincing, why wasn’t Rose impressed sufficiently to become something other than a disposable Scarlet Woman? Is it because she well understood the whole thing was just an elaborate romantic play, essentially a gift she offered to her beloved husband?
@Jim Eshelman said
"One either finds the witness credible or not credible."
My experience in the occult and in studying occultists is that black and white approaches to understanding them and their work are not generally helpful.
Case in point, Crowley is demonstrably not credible on his claims about a praeternatural intelligence authoring Liber AL. Reason? The evidence he pointed to as the most convincing possible (the Tarot key adjustment) didn’t hold up.
It doesn’t necessarily follow from this that everything in Liber AL, and everything Crowley wrote is a waste of time.
It just means the strong, and I would say concincing, likelihood is that Crowley, not something called Aiwass, wrote Liber AL.
@Jim Eshelman said
"And have you read his specific proofs? For example, the extensive demonstrations he wrote in The Equinox of the Gods?"
Jim, which one or two of those alleged demonstrations do you find the most convincing? And why so?
@Jim Eshelman said
"Math isn't "faith-based,""
Actually, at some point it is.
And more pertinently, belief in myth certainly is.
@Jim Eshelman said
"The root postulate of Thelema is "Aiwass dictated The Book of the Law to Aleister Crowley"
And just to clarify this point once again, if that isn’t literally true, people should burn all copies of Liber AL, correct?
And that doesn’t strike you as being the histrionic reaction of a disappointed true believer?
(jk)
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@h2h said
"Tarotica - you mentioned seeing AC's notes on the gematria of Hadit scrawled on the back page of the Stele paraphrase. Can you provide a scan of these notes? I would be very interested in seeing them."
Actually, that isn't what I said. What I said was that his Qabalistic calculations were written on the back of the French translation, that is the prose translation.
But I also never said I had a scan of anything. I said I had handwritten notes, taken at the time I viewed the material a number of years ago.
I would ask this. If I posted scans of the pages, how would you know they were images of the backs of the pages of the documents in question, and not something I concocted to fool you into believing in my "conspiracy theory"?
For that matter, given that some people claim to have seen these documents, and have published regarding them, it is odd I think that none of them have ever mentioned this before.
Perhaps we should ask them why they haven't.
If their reply is that they saw nothing on the backs of the pages, then we may have more to talk about on this point.
(jk)
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@Tarotica said
"I would ask this. If I posted scans of the pages, how would you know they were images of the backs of the pages of the documents in question, and not something I concocted to fool you into believing in my "conspiracy theory"?"
Don't worry about me. Just post whatever information you have.
Just to clarify:
- You have personally seen AC's notes written on the back page of the French translation or read about them in a second hand source?
- Who are the people that have claimed to see the French translation and written about it, but made no mention of the notes?
- Where is the original French translation document archived?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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No, I haven't the foggiest idea where you're going. (Or, rather, I hope I don't.)Yes, I now some things about HB's choice of a name, was there when he picked and for the days after. However (since I presume you will next ask me to tell what I know), I'll say now that I'm not talking.
I will add that there were predictable jokes about it the next day (all in good humor). I began to refer to the "Beta Testing" phase of the O.T.O. One of the other Ninth Degrees referred to the new king as "The Grand Master-Beta."
Grady was given his name by Crowley. The story as made public by him in various ways is that Crowley asked Grady his True Will. Grady, a young U.S. soldier on duty in WW II, answered, "To get laid." Crowley then wrote a sophisticated Qabalistic explanation of this name, which he offered to Grady (the letter was published in a late 70s, or early 80s issue of The O.T.O. Newsletter). Grady's contemporaries from Agape Lodge at that time told me that the word then circulated was that Crowley's real intent in the name for Grady was the idea of "Marrying Fool.""
Just to clarify, I am not interested in OTO politics; my interest is in Liber Legis.
Thanks for that information on Grady, but I wouldn’t trust AC’s “explanation” of why he gave that name to HA. Yes, Hymen is the god of marriage but another meaning could be the OHO is the keeper of a veiled secret. My only question is whether Bill chose his name himself or whether it was known in advance that the name for Grady’s successor would be “Hymenaeus Beta”.
Would you agree that Liber Legis is a profoundly ironic text?
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93, All,
With all due respect:
I don't get this. Any of this. At all. What's the point? I'm glad I'm at work and really have nothing better to do.
Tools. I could care less about how or where a pipe wrench is made as long as I can use it when my sink backs up.
Tarotica: What's your beef? Is nothing in Crowley's writings in general, or in Liber Al vel Legis of use to you? If that's so, why not drop it and move on? Could it be possible that this (as with so much on internet forums) is simply carried out to display to all your superior intelligence? How does any of this help? Can you show me anything constructive about this whole line of thought?
If not, I'll find another way to amuse myself at work.
93s,
Frater LA'AL