The Qlippoth - elegant commentary of Michael Ford
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I don't see anything wrong with investigating and learning about different paths, but I have to say that any workings involving the qlippoth before reaching tiphereth on the Tree of Life, is very toxic.
Furthermore, the recommendations from akhtya75 to take initiation down the Tree of Death to understand why you have a drinking problem, seems to me a little off. You really don't have to go down the Tree of Death to improve and/or balance yourself. In fact, the more you go down the Tree of Death, the less balanced you'll become.
I've seem this same rationale form the so-called Dragon Rouge initiates, but I can say if akhtya75 is an initiate of this order. -
@Metzareph said
"any workings involving the qlippoth before reaching tiphereth on the Tree of Life, is very toxic."
Doesn't the A.'.A.'. curriculum require astral travel to one of the qlippoth in one of the earlier grades as a test?
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No offense Watcher, but I'd recommend reviewing the traditional literature on the subjects you're investigating rather than search them on youtube. If you are interested in understanding the nature of the Qliphoth, try checking out the references to them in the Zohar or Mathers' Kabbalah Unveiled or Regardie's The Golden Dawn or Crowley's 777, etc...
616
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@Metzareph said
"any workings involving the qlippoth before reaching tiphereth on the Tree of Life, is very toxic."
In addition to it being toxic, I still don't get what the point is of stumbling around in the dark of the Qliphoth without the light of the HGA to guide you. Apart from the fun of it of course.
My understanding of the return through the Qliphothic paths is that it is a kind of act of consecration. Kind of like on the way up you have exhausted the potential of each Sephira and all that remains is an empty shell, you then fill each shell with the energy gained from the Source, thereby consecrating it to the Great Work. This idea sort of follows the Purification - Consecration - Initiation formula that Crowley bloke's always going on about.
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@nashimiron said
"My understanding of the return through the Qliphothic paths is that it is a kind of act of consecration."
The infernal - i.e, that which exists at a lower vibratory plane than oneself (below one in the evolutionary scale) - can never consecrate one.
It's possible - if one is suitably prepared to take advantage - that one's encounter with atavistic forces could provide the opportunity for one to purify onself (that depends on preparation, ability, intention, and action) - but there is no consecration to be had there.
(The rest of your post shows me that you probably understand this, because you make clear that the real consecration is from spiritual forces of a higher level.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@nashimiron said
"My understanding of the return through the Qliphothic paths is that it is a kind of act of consecration."The infernal - i.e, that which exists at a lower vibratory plane than oneself (below one in the evolutionary scale) - can never consecrate one.
"What I meant to say is that you are consecrating the Qliphoth with the inspiration from Tiphareth, not the Qliphoth consecrating the magician.
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@nashimiron said
"What I meant to say is that you are consecrating the Qliphoth with the inspiration from Tiphareth, not the Qliphoth consecrating the magician.
"Got it.
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rzk wrote:
"The name of the Samael Qlipha, which is the qliphotic version of Hod, is "The Poison of God", so yes indeed.
One must approach the Qliphoth with a huge discipline and respect, and use its destructive forces to break free
from the barriers of the prison man is living in. This is not an easy task. It takes massive effort and hard work to be able to understand how to work with these forces. But it is indeed possible to work with it before reaching Tiphareth. In the system of Dragon Rouge you begin working with the Qliphoth almost instantly. However in the system of the Typhonian OTO you descend into the Qliphoth through Daath. "Why would you want to work with these forces before tiphareth?
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I thought that by the time you reach Tiphareth you should not be identifying with anything beneath it. As you have then passed over the veil of Paroketh, you should have achieved detachment from the 4 lower sephiroth, just as when you later cross the abyss you achieve detahment from everything beneath it.
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@nashimiron said
"I thought that by the time you reach Tiphareth you should not be identifying with anything beneath it. As you have then passed over the veil of Paroketh, you should have achieved detachment from the 4 lower sephiroth, just as when you later cross the abyss you achieve detahment from everything beneath it."
No, that wouldn't be a correct idea. The attainments of Tiphereth and Binah are significantly different in character.
While such methods as renunciation and detachment may be useful to some people in the actual attainment, it is the task of the Adept to be intimately related to all of the aspects of his or her incarnate being. The Adeptus Minor is poised in the center of the Tree of Life connected equally to the heights and the depths. Rather than detach from the elemental components of his or her mortal expression, the Adept has the distinctive job of exercising mastery over them. That is, the Adeptus Minor is figuratively the top point of the Pentagram in relation to the other four points.
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@rzk said
"Jim Eshelman wrote:
*The Adeptus Minor is poised in the center of the Tree of Life connected equally to the heights and the depths... of the Tree of Life. Not the Qliphotic."
What's your point? The point to which I was responding was about attainment of Tiphereth.
"The fall into the qliphoth just might be more tougher the longer one has worked with the sephiroth, in a dualistic system where one is afraid of the nightside."
I'm not sure where the "afraid" comes from. In fact, it's the Adept (Minor and Major particularly) that most especially (pointedly and systematically) begins working with that (except that one has been addressing layers of it all the way up - you don't get past the Malkuth grade without dealing with Lilith, etc.).
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@rzk said
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The fall into the qliphoth just might be more tougher the longer one has worked with the sephiroth, in a dualistic system where one is afraid of the nightside.
The Left Hand Path solution is simply the solution of getting down to it as fast as possible and work with them both the way up/"down".
"Whether you go 'up' or 'down,' by learning one thing, do you not invariably learn of its opposite.?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The Adeptus Minor is poised in the center of the Tree of Life connected equally to the heights and the depths. Rather than detach from the elemental components of his or her mortal expression, the Adept has the distinctive job of exercising mastery over them. That is, the Adeptus Minor is figuratively the top point of the Pentagram in relation to the other four points."
I get you, so the idea of detachment is not relevant at the Tiphareth stage. And so the Adeptus Minor would work with the qliphoth as part of the task of excercising mastery over sephiroth below Tiphareth. If this is so, it would seem to suggest that working with the qliphoth before reaching the Tiphareth stage would be a bit like trying to run before you can walk, and would end up being slower than doing things the tried and tested way.
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@KRVB MMShCh said
"No offense Watcher, but I'd recommend reviewing the traditional literature on the subjects you're investigating rather than search them on youtube. If you are interested in understanding the nature of the Qliphoth, try checking out the references to them in the Zohar or Mathers' Kabbalah Unveiled or Regardie's The Golden Dawn or Crowley's 777, etc...
616"
I would also recommend learning of the Lurianic Cabalists. It was this 16th century revival of Cabala which led to the relevance of the system first becoming known to Christians, and thus post-Christian groups. They were VERY cautious.
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93,
I've been following this thread trying to hold my biases in check. There's often an ooh-ahh-scary-stuff aspect to the way Left-Hand paths are presented that makes me suspect they're mostly hype. I admit Michael Ford does come across as balanced and intelligent, except for that snake (which looks like it's dead and stuffed in a couple of his videos) and the Alas-Poor-Yorick gear on the table behind him. Hokey stage props never inspire confidence as far as I'm concerned.
But I have to wonder if the claimed superiority of the Left-Hand is simply derived from its followers not having experienced a well-guided 'traditional' system. For example, even on the G.D. (let alone the A.A.) level, the Philosophus and Portal work brings any aspirant into contact with qlippothic material. Philosophus work includes the paths of Qoph and Peh, Portal work those of Nun and Ayin. Those aren't exactly white-light experiences, except perhaps in retrospect when the experiences have been absorbed and integrated.
Yes, Qlippothophiles use, and invoke by, other names than those employed in the mainstream, but given that I spend part of my workday reading marketing & promotional materials, that renaming in itself makes me doubly suspicious about hype.
The key drawback to the Left-Hand, however, seems that it requires a considerable honesty with oneself, and the ability to navigate one's own mental streams without getting stuck on the shoals. That's hard to find in any aspirant. Y'know what's needed in mainstream Hermetic Qabalah? Considerable honesty with oneself, and the ability to navigate one's own mental streams without getting stuck on the shoals.
I see that there's more apparent power in the Left-Hand. But that's all I see, and apparencies aren't ultimately convincing in occult work. Far from developing fear of the Qlippoth, a mainstream practitioner develops greater confidence in dealing with them over time. For this reason, I seriously question RZK's "half of the gnosis" comment.
I'm not dismissing Left-Hand followers as insincere. But as someone who's not followed this track, going by what I have seen of it, I do think it overrates itself.
93 93/93,
EM
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I'm placing my money on a balance of BHP (Both Hand Paths) As does the al-Khem ist who understands the:
1 Apophis / Chaotic / breaking down of ourselves
2 Kheperu / Transformation
3 Ma'at / reestablished Balance & Order / Phoenix from its own ashes spiritual rebirth.I would agree that perhaps Ford is a little unbalanced towards the LFH, but I like what he has to say and I think he says it well.
Thoughts?
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Cliff,
Are you related, I wonder, to Mr & Mrs Atria and their son Jem? Or to Mr & Mrs Kuth and their son Mal?
Or will you babble on about Babalon?
No, it will be Mr & Mrs Adhi and their son Sam. Or, if not, Mr & Mrs Ahna and their daughter Di.
Best wishes,
Michael.
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@Michael Staley said
"Cliff,
Are you related, I wonder, to Mr & Mrs Atria and their son Jem? Or to Mr & Mrs Kuth and their son Mal?
Or will you babble on about Babalon?
No, it will be Mr & Mrs Adhi and their son Sam. Or, if not, Mr & Mrs Ahna and their daughter Di.
Best wishes,
Michael."
What does that mean? I have no idea who these people are but I am gathering you are being a smartass? Correct me if I'm wrong, so I don't waste my 'babbling' on this forum. -
Dear Cliff,
No, I wasn't trying to be a smartass. They are simply humorous remarks, and I'm sorry if I've caused offence; none was intended.
Best wishes,
Michael.
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Heh, english humour! Jematria, Malkuth Samadhi, Diahna. But I'm still far from understanding this arcanum arcanorum.
