The Qlippoth - elegant commentary of Michael Ford
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I thought that by the time you reach Tiphareth you should not be identifying with anything beneath it. As you have then passed over the veil of Paroketh, you should have achieved detachment from the 4 lower sephiroth, just as when you later cross the abyss you achieve detahment from everything beneath it.
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@nashimiron said
"I thought that by the time you reach Tiphareth you should not be identifying with anything beneath it. As you have then passed over the veil of Paroketh, you should have achieved detachment from the 4 lower sephiroth, just as when you later cross the abyss you achieve detahment from everything beneath it."
No, that wouldn't be a correct idea. The attainments of Tiphereth and Binah are significantly different in character.
While such methods as renunciation and detachment may be useful to some people in the actual attainment, it is the task of the Adept to be intimately related to all of the aspects of his or her incarnate being. The Adeptus Minor is poised in the center of the Tree of Life connected equally to the heights and the depths. Rather than detach from the elemental components of his or her mortal expression, the Adept has the distinctive job of exercising mastery over them. That is, the Adeptus Minor is figuratively the top point of the Pentagram in relation to the other four points.
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@rzk said
"Jim Eshelman wrote:
*The Adeptus Minor is poised in the center of the Tree of Life connected equally to the heights and the depths... of the Tree of Life. Not the Qliphotic."
What's your point? The point to which I was responding was about attainment of Tiphereth.
"The fall into the qliphoth just might be more tougher the longer one has worked with the sephiroth, in a dualistic system where one is afraid of the nightside."
I'm not sure where the "afraid" comes from. In fact, it's the Adept (Minor and Major particularly) that most especially (pointedly and systematically) begins working with that (except that one has been addressing layers of it all the way up - you don't get past the Malkuth grade without dealing with Lilith, etc.).
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@rzk said
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The fall into the qliphoth just might be more tougher the longer one has worked with the sephiroth, in a dualistic system where one is afraid of the nightside.
The Left Hand Path solution is simply the solution of getting down to it as fast as possible and work with them both the way up/"down".
"Whether you go 'up' or 'down,' by learning one thing, do you not invariably learn of its opposite.?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The Adeptus Minor is poised in the center of the Tree of Life connected equally to the heights and the depths. Rather than detach from the elemental components of his or her mortal expression, the Adept has the distinctive job of exercising mastery over them. That is, the Adeptus Minor is figuratively the top point of the Pentagram in relation to the other four points."
I get you, so the idea of detachment is not relevant at the Tiphareth stage. And so the Adeptus Minor would work with the qliphoth as part of the task of excercising mastery over sephiroth below Tiphareth. If this is so, it would seem to suggest that working with the qliphoth before reaching the Tiphareth stage would be a bit like trying to run before you can walk, and would end up being slower than doing things the tried and tested way.
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@KRVB MMShCh said
"No offense Watcher, but I'd recommend reviewing the traditional literature on the subjects you're investigating rather than search them on youtube. If you are interested in understanding the nature of the Qliphoth, try checking out the references to them in the Zohar or Mathers' Kabbalah Unveiled or Regardie's The Golden Dawn or Crowley's 777, etc...
616"
I would also recommend learning of the Lurianic Cabalists. It was this 16th century revival of Cabala which led to the relevance of the system first becoming known to Christians, and thus post-Christian groups. They were VERY cautious.
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93,
I've been following this thread trying to hold my biases in check. There's often an ooh-ahh-scary-stuff aspect to the way Left-Hand paths are presented that makes me suspect they're mostly hype. I admit Michael Ford does come across as balanced and intelligent, except for that snake (which looks like it's dead and stuffed in a couple of his videos) and the Alas-Poor-Yorick gear on the table behind him. Hokey stage props never inspire confidence as far as I'm concerned.
But I have to wonder if the claimed superiority of the Left-Hand is simply derived from its followers not having experienced a well-guided 'traditional' system. For example, even on the G.D. (let alone the A.A.) level, the Philosophus and Portal work brings any aspirant into contact with qlippothic material. Philosophus work includes the paths of Qoph and Peh, Portal work those of Nun and Ayin. Those aren't exactly white-light experiences, except perhaps in retrospect when the experiences have been absorbed and integrated.
Yes, Qlippothophiles use, and invoke by, other names than those employed in the mainstream, but given that I spend part of my workday reading marketing & promotional materials, that renaming in itself makes me doubly suspicious about hype.
The key drawback to the Left-Hand, however, seems that it requires a considerable honesty with oneself, and the ability to navigate one's own mental streams without getting stuck on the shoals. That's hard to find in any aspirant. Y'know what's needed in mainstream Hermetic Qabalah? Considerable honesty with oneself, and the ability to navigate one's own mental streams without getting stuck on the shoals.
I see that there's more apparent power in the Left-Hand. But that's all I see, and apparencies aren't ultimately convincing in occult work. Far from developing fear of the Qlippoth, a mainstream practitioner develops greater confidence in dealing with them over time. For this reason, I seriously question RZK's "half of the gnosis" comment.
I'm not dismissing Left-Hand followers as insincere. But as someone who's not followed this track, going by what I have seen of it, I do think it overrates itself.
93 93/93,
EM
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I'm placing my money on a balance of BHP (Both Hand Paths) As does the al-Khem ist who understands the:
1 Apophis / Chaotic / breaking down of ourselves
2 Kheperu / Transformation
3 Ma'at / reestablished Balance & Order / Phoenix from its own ashes spiritual rebirth.I would agree that perhaps Ford is a little unbalanced towards the LFH, but I like what he has to say and I think he says it well.
Thoughts?
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Cliff,
Are you related, I wonder, to Mr & Mrs Atria and their son Jem? Or to Mr & Mrs Kuth and their son Mal?
Or will you babble on about Babalon?
No, it will be Mr & Mrs Adhi and their son Sam. Or, if not, Mr & Mrs Ahna and their daughter Di.
Best wishes,
Michael.
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@Michael Staley said
"Cliff,
Are you related, I wonder, to Mr & Mrs Atria and their son Jem? Or to Mr & Mrs Kuth and their son Mal?
Or will you babble on about Babalon?
No, it will be Mr & Mrs Adhi and their son Sam. Or, if not, Mr & Mrs Ahna and their daughter Di.
Best wishes,
Michael."
What does that mean? I have no idea who these people are but I am gathering you are being a smartass? Correct me if I'm wrong, so I don't waste my 'babbling' on this forum. -
Dear Cliff,
No, I wasn't trying to be a smartass. They are simply humorous remarks, and I'm sorry if I've caused offence; none was intended.
Best wishes,
Michael.
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Heh, english humour! Jematria, Malkuth Samadhi, Diahna. But I'm still far from understanding this arcanum arcanorum.
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Then please excuse me for jumping to inaccurate conclusions. You are certainly not a smart***, but rather 'smart' from the other posts that I looked up of yours, my fault.
Cliff
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@rzk said
"Not at all. That is one of the basic points that the Left Hand Path always have been trying to make."
What about when one thinks of the altar, the double cube - the two trees in equilibrium. You can put one cube on top of the other and it is still the same.
I have always seen it depending on the person...
If one is at peace, the way shall be peaceful.
If one is at war, the way shall be conflicted.
An angel being an angel to an angel, just as a demon is a demon to a demon. -
@rzk said
"Well, you don´t want to if you do not want to work with the Left Hand Path.
The idea to work first with the Sephiroth up to Tiphareth is Right Hand Path practice.The reason is simply that illumination is achieved at Tiphareth/Thagirion at the same time for the Left Hand Path adept, instead at only Tiphareth: where half of Left Hand Path initiation is missing.
So the reason is basically an issue of time. There is no reason in not starting to work with the Qliphoth directly if one really wants to work with the Left Hand Path. It is faster to work simultaneously with the trees than to take one tree at a time.
And also, maybe most importantly, by the time you have worked with the Sephirotic tree you would have building the sense of yourself up so much that it would take longer time to let the qliphotic powers cut away layers that you after a while identify with very hard."I have not bought yet the idea of taking a dive into the qlipoth without the understanding of one's humanity. Bluntly, we humans are animals and we share the same basic urges and necessities of a dog. The only thing that makes us different, is awareness of the divine. The three lower cakras of Hindu tradition reflect the animal condition. The fourth, the heart cakra (equivalent to Tipharet) is were we gain insight to our spiritual growth. I argue that there is a contradiction on re-emerging from a qlipothic dive such as this with your consciousness intact. In this case, and if done correctly, you will forget that you were human.
Again, the danger here is not dealing with demonic forces. The danger here is forgetting you are human.
Human consciousness is a very fragile thing that has been in the works since the Big Bang. It has lots of flaws and it is still a "prototype stage".
On the other hand, I see and respect the principle behind such attempt. The way I see this exercise is to integrate the dark aspects of the psyche into our daily practice, to embrace and deal with our demons. But you see, this is an entirely different thing. We first acknowledge that we are human beings and that it is our Will to gain spiritual understanding. The lower has to be brought to the light... meaning, be brought to the conscious part of ourselves. But it is under the premise that we know we are human and that we want to do this operation."Is god to live in a dog?"
Explore the Nature and Powers of your own Being.
This includes everything which is, or can be for you: and you must accept everything exactly as it is in itself, as one of the factors which go to make up your True Self. This True Self thus ultimately includes all things soever: its discovery is Initiation (the travelling inwards) and as its Nature is to move continually, it must be understood not as static, but as dynamic, not as a Noun but as a Verb. -
I have a book by my friend Abramelin beside me and he says that controling demons is best with your HGA's help. It's not hard to deduce that the same warning applies to the qlipoth. Now my friend Abramelin was a wise man..
Now I know from the book that there's no need to deal with the qlipoth in order to aspire to my HGA. -
@rzk said
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Do you have any references to material where it is said that one of the cubes is the tree of knowledge, the qliphotic tree?
"No. I have references for the Tree as a two-dimensional representation of a cube.
Two cubes, two trees was my line of thinking.