Where did all these light exercises derive from?
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Was just thinking about this due to the posts about RC, MPR and LBRP, body of light, astral travel, lucid dreaming, etc. and thinking it is amazing how similar the methods are between what the Golden Dawn came up with and has since passed on into "western" culture. I know they studied some Hindu stuff, perhaps that is where they came up with the idea that it was all about light?
In LVX would be a good sign-off here, but it has some Judeo-Christian connotations that I just can't use in good conscience. I suppose I could use Konx om Pax? Or Khabs Am Pekht? But, you see my point in mentioning it, anyway.
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@Redd Fezz said
"Was just thinking about this due to the posts about RC, MPR and LBRP, body of light, astral travel, lucid dreaming, etc. and thinking it is amazing how similar the methods are between what the Golden Dawn came up with and has since passed on into "western" culture. I know they studied some Hindu stuff, perhaps that is where they came up with the idea that it was all about light?"
I think there is a point you're making and I'm missing. That is, I feel there is something I should be responding to here, but haven't a clue what it is, so I assume I'm missing something.
"In LVX would be a good sign-off here, but it has some Judeo-Christian connotations that I just can't use in good conscience."
Huh? Not sure where that's coming from. The Upanishads place at least as much emphasis on Light as anything in the Old or New Testament.
"I suppose I could use Konx om Pax? Or Khabs Am Pekht?"
Those are just translations. The mean the same thing (either literally or inferentially) as "Light in Extension."
"But, you see my point in mentioning it, anyway."
No, that's what I think I'm missing.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Huh? Not sure where that's coming from. The Upanishads place at least as much emphasis on Light as anything in the Old or New Testament."EDIT: AH! I see why you were confused. I left out some crucial words in this statement (now added in underlined bold):
"it is amazing how similar the methods are between eastern practices and what the Golden Dawn came up with and has since passed on into "western" culture."
You haven't really missed my point, because this is exactly what I'm talking about. Did the Golden Dawn derive it's light techniques from Hindu practices? Some of the ancient Tibetan practices I've learned use light and sending and receiving of light, accumulation of light and circulation of light and the body of light in a similar way. I know there are similar Hindu practices which are more ancient. I was just wondering if this is where Golden Dawn and its offshoots got the idea from. Something else I was wondering, but didn't ask, is why they would take these ideas and make them into Judeo-Christian based exercises. They seem to have left the tattvas alone, so I'm guessing the light-based exercises may have came from somewhere else. Just wondering where.
I get the idea that light is a basic truth of the universe and maybe the discoveries were made on the "inner planes" or deep in meditation, but I'm just thinking if it's a basic truth, then why do the symbols and helper type beings associated with the light change? Just because of one's psychological make-up, you think?
But, mainly, I was just wondering if Golden Dawn derived these exercises from Hindu tradition (Upanishads, etc.) and modified them to be Judeo-Christian.
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@Redd Fezz said
"Did the Golden Dawn derive it's light techniques from Hindu practices?"
The GD founders were close associates of Blavatsky, and had active exposure to her particular form of quasi-Eastern teachings (and some actual Eastern teaching). They were also educated and well-read (although many of the Eastern source works were only beginning to be translated and made available about the time the GD came into being. Max Müller's translation of the Upanishads is from about 4 years before the GD started. It's reasonable to think that they were reasonably familiar with these.
But the GD's style was acutely Western in most regards. The methods they taught (and I mean the actual GD, i.e., the order as it existed before 1900) can all be traced to Western sources, I think. The pentagram ritual was nearly given in full by Levi. Much of their approach had existed in Christian mysticism. The Middle Pillar actually didn't exist in the GD, but rather was created by Regardie decades later based on some much cruder, preliminary notes in a Portal document.
It's difficult for me to attribute these things to Judeo-Christian forms per se, because they preexisted Christianity; something similar did exist, though, in Christian mysticism and practice. The name of the order itself referred to sunrise, and a pure effusion of higher light was basic to their whole approach, even before the 5=6 ritual was written (around 1892 IIRC).
Eastern elements were sufficiently absent that Crowley's incorporation of them was a rather dramatic innovation a few years later.
OTOH I'm sure that, once the GD's basic direction was set, its founders grabbed good stuff anywhere they could get their hands on it
"Something else I was wondering, but didn't ask, is why they would take these ideas and make them into Judeo-Christian based exercises."
The GD rituals were based on ritual outlines pre-existing that order. These rituals were openly and obviously based on Qabalah. The founders' history was especially in Freemasonry. They were both Anglican. And they were both British, living under Victoria in the late 19th Century. There seems little about them to suggest they would have uprooted the Qabalistic form of the ritual outlines given to them.
The Pentagram Ritual, as mentioned, came mostly from Levi's published works. Besides this and the grade ceremonies, there is nothing I can think of in the rituals you're mentioning that are inherently Judeo-Christian except that they are explicitly Qabalistic (as was the order), and use Qabalistic terms and forms.
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Thank you for your answer. It was helpful.
When I say "Judeo-Christian" framework, I am referring to the 4 angels of the LBRP, the Qabalistic Cross, vibrating Hebrew names of God, etc. while performing visionary rituals working with light.
I also recall reading about LVX and seeing some diagram that traced the letters into the shape of a cross. I think it was either a book by Paul Case or Israel Regardie.
All of these things are obviously missing from eastern methods, which have different symbols and sounds, and slightly or largely different meanings... You know, it's funny, but I saw a video the other day where Robert Thurmann said repeatedly that Buddhism and Vedanta were no different, just semantics. I was surprised to see such an authoritative scholar say something so inaccurate repeatedly. But, now I guess I know why I have read several criticisms of his work previously.
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Yes, there may be differences, but the similarities are more striking, to me.
In vedanta, you have a trinitity (brama, vishnu, shiva) like in "judeo-christianity". And the ishvara is very similar to the christ/hga/other-name.
For one thing, it's a little narrow-sighted to assume that the only time that East-met-West was in the last century, or even the last few millennia. All religions have been steeping and borrowing to some extent, for a very long time.
On the other side, all of these religions are exploring the same universe, the same human mind. So the experiences should bear similarity, and they do.
Even practices that seem unique to one 'branch' are not so unique when you consider the purpose:
For example, the LBRP and ceremonial magick. What is the point of a ceremony with deliberate symmetry, if not to transcend duality?
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"Yes, there may be differences, but the similarities are more striking, to me."
I used to feel that way, too. What you say later on about "describing the same human mind" makes it much less striking. People share a lot of common ground, in general.
@AvshalomBinyamin said
"For one thing, it's a little narrow-sighted to assume that the only time that East-met-West was in the last century, or even the last few millennia."
I never said that at all. I asked where the GD traces these exercises from. Wherever they come from will give us a clue to which traditions they have possibly been borrowed from.
@AvshalomBinyamin said
"On the other side, all of these religions are exploring the same universe, the same human mind. So the experiences should bear similarity, and they do. "
It's important to note the differences. The "same human mind" can have lots of different ideas about things and even about whatever lies beyond "things". The fact that many of the ideas in the theory and the practice are quite different shows this rather plainly.
@AvshalomBinyamin said
"For example, the LBRP and ceremonial magick. What is the point of a ceremony with deliberate symmetry, if not to transcend duality?"
Dunno what that means, but the LBRP never had any such affect on me. Guru yoga on the other hand...
I would also like to point out that when I ask a question, someone here inevitably makes an issue out of and turns a simple question with no distinguishable slant into some kind of debate or argument. I'm NOT interested in that and I specifically word my questions to avoid that. I'm not coming to a Thelema board to express my feelings about why I disagree. I'm coming only to ask questions and share experiences about what IS common or else I just keep quiet.
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" I'm coming only to ask questions and share experiences about what IS common or else I just keep quiet."
OK.
And I post my opinions and thoughts in my way. And we co-exist.
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
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" I'm coming only to ask questions and share experiences about what IS common or else I just keep quiet."OK.
And I post my opinions and thoughts in my way. And we co-exist.
"rrrraaaawwwwwrrrr! i will keeel yoooouuuu!!
Thanks for understanding, I just didn't want to spin off into circles.
I really liked JIm's answer to my first post. I was hoping maybe he might have some ideas about my second post... As far as disagreements go, there's plenty within either Western itself or Eastern itself; BOTA and the A.'.A.'. don't really see eye-to-eye and there are various Buddhist traditions which, depending on which way you look, seem to disagree with each other; but they all disagree with Vedanta on some key points.
The initial question really did come out of simple curiosity about the origins of these particular similarities. I think it is pretty interesting, actually.
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@Redd Fezz said
"I really liked JIm's answer to my first post. I was hoping maybe he might have some ideas about my second post..."
Actually, I wrote a long answer to your second post, hit Submit... and it never showed up. Not sure what happened. But, unfortunately, I don't have time to rewrite it.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Redd Fezz said
"I really liked JIm's answer to my first post. I was hoping maybe he might have some ideas about my second post..."Actually, I wrote a long answer to your second post, hit Submit... and it never showed up. Not sure what happened. But, unfortunately, I don't have time to rewrite it."
DOH! I see you indeed did reply to my first and second posts and I remember reading them, too. I guess I was thinking about my third post... lol, but you're probably bored of this already. I appreciate what you've given me already. Thanks, Jim. You are a kind soul... even when you're posting devil smiley heads.