Mystery is the enemy of truth.
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@MaKher said
"I was reading the body of light topic, earlier, and noticed Mr. Eshelman's statement about how most of what he could communicate was received under obligation, and was only circulated among Second Order T:.O:.T:., at least as regards things that could be written. Otherwise, he also referenced personal training as a useful adjunct to getting the body of light to work properly, so to speak. (Please take no offense at the paraphrase, as it is merely a rephrasing of what points are salient to my inquiry.)
I wish to put this as politely as possible, while still retaining my meaning, undiluted by saccharin coating. What good does it do for the evolution of human consciousness to hoard mystical secrets, reserving them only for the few who are so positioned as to meet with and progress through the ranks of an order, temple or church? Is it not written that "mystery is the enemy of truth"?"
I can give at least a couple of answers to that. (At least it might clarify my thinking.)
The first is that I really have no confidence in nor respect in people trying this stuff on their own. I've devoted my life to supporting and eventually building channels of dedicated training. This is the context where I find people succeed. Therefore, not only do I find no conflict in the idea of reserving practical information for those capable of actually making use of it, I question whether it is responsible (in many cases, at least) to do otherwise.
The other point - in regard to this particular matter you mention - is a matter of honor. I received something under obligation. I wouldn't have received it any other way. I owe a duty to that obligation. I also would weaken my own integrity (and thus compromise what I might contribute in the future) were I to neglect that obligation.
Besides, there are accessible channels through which people can get access to the information. It's not being hoarded or withheld. A great deal of energy is being expended to create and maintain the systems that communicate it.
"I do not mean to imply this as referring only to instruction regarding the body of light, either. In general, it is my theory that magical and mystical development is the birth-right of every star. It is, therefore, inappropriate to conceal from others the ability to develop his/her inheritance. "
I agree with that exactly as you've stated it.
"How is it any different when T:.O:.T:. conceals their secret teachings?"
It doesn't. It delivers them. But it delivers them in a known working way. This sort of thing has always been most effectively delivered through a school or training system, and especially in one that guarantees personal growth parallel to the purely technical learning. It isn't just a matter of giving you a technique - it's foremost a matter of substantially transforming you first. (That is what you claimed as your basic birthright above, right? Magical and mystical development, not just tricks and tips?)
"Such exhibits an effort on their part to restrict spiritual development to the small number of people who are either near to a temple/pronaos, or those who can afford to travel to one."
I see what it might seem that way to you. What you aren't yet seeing is that the whole system is an effort to deliver all of this to people in an effective way.
"I can understand the obvious matters regarding instructions which simply can't be written. If they can't be communicated through writing, they can't. So be it. However, I see no reason to conceal potentially useful written instructions from sincere aspirants to the Great Work."
See above. In the immediate case, the issue is that I promised. (That was a condition of receiving the instruction in the first place.)
"In short, it is not the responsibility of any Order or Temple to protect us from our own failings."
It is absolutely the responsibility of any Order or temple to do this provided you have a certain relationship with it. Anything less is irresponsible. There are, however, limits, and I agree with you completely that people need to learn to act on their own initiative and make their own choices. There is very little (at this point, possibly nothing) in the T.'.O.'.T.'. curriculum for the specific purpose of protecting somebody from it. (OTOH the Order is committed to providing a safe, reliable path to personal growth and spiritual attainment.)
"It is the responsibility of every star to determine for itself the course appropriate to it."
There is BTW the side issue that the majority of people do not begin the Work having the slightest idea how to do this. The training in the early stages rehabilitates this. That is, we don't necessarily start with people who have much capacity to think or act for themselves, but we definitely end up with them.
"I want to stress that this is not meant as an attack on Mr. Eshelman, the T:.O:.T:., the A:.A:. or any other body."
Nor was it taken as an attack. We probably disagree on some points - fine - I'm taking the time to elaborate some of my thoughts on the matter you have raised. I think it's an important topic to discuss.
"It is also an invitation to the T:.O:.T:. and the associated lineage of the A:.A:. to take a great step forward, and disclose FULL and COMPLETE instructions in the courses of magick and mysticism."
Nice try. It ain't agonna happen.
(PS - The full A.'.A.'. system is available and disclosed except for the initiation ceremonies themselves. To disclose them would compromise the ability of them to work.)
"On this line, however, I would like to thank Mr. Eshelman for posting his notes, including more detailed instructions, for Libers 25 and 36."
See, we publish all sorts of stuff. (Both of those papers began as confidential Second Order instructions. When they were published, the only things removed were direct reference to other, private parts of the Order's system which, frankly, aren't all that important to somebody not going through it.)
"These postings are right along the lines of the sort of disclosure I would like to see. In essence, I want to see the resources made available for purely solitary magicians to attain equally, if by a longer path than that of members of various orders."
I've done more on that point than perhaps anyone in the present generation. On the other hand, I have little respect for that path. As Crowley advised (in one of his instructions that has had more positive effect on me than perhaps any other - his truest instruction in Will), take the time to find the right teacher, devote yourself unconditionally to that teacher and his or her instruction, and follow the provided system to the end.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Thank you for the reply above. It clarifies a great deal of your thinking on the issue, allowing me to better understand where your group is coming from. I posted the question here because, in my time discussing various matters on this forum, and reading other discussions, I find myself developing a great deal of respect from T:.O:.T:. and its associates. I expected a useful, intelligible answer, else I wouldn't have bothered asking.
Your point regarding your oaths and obligations, as well as maintaining your own personal honor are completely understood. All of these points, properly understood, can be essential to a magician. (I was tempted to say they are essential, but I try to avoid absolutes.)
Regarding the duty of the Order to protect SOME people, as you say that is based on a certain relationship established between the Order and the Student. Someone who is not in any way related to the Order by the lack of relation releases the Order from any responsibility to them. However, I realize, by reflection, that if your teachings were made generally available, that would damage the particular case, and make way to potentially harm the unready Students to whom the Order is responsible.
That said, I will leave the "invitation" out there, but with no expectation of an answer, and some hope that it will not be answered for the sake of the integrity of the Order.Regarding solitary paths, I admit that there are numerous defects possible therein. However, that is my path, and that of many others. I've seen in many of those with whom I've dealt the potential for self-deception, delusion, even mania, along that road. However, it is my choice to pursue the Great Work, whether a qualified teacher shall appear or not. For the time being, it appears that most of my work is to be solitary, and the approach to that is discussed under the topic I posted in the Initiation section.
This self-initiatory path is the product of my own choices and circumstances. I would not choose to live in any city, let alone LA or New York. Living in Denver for a short time was unpleasant enough. I prefer to live in the open spaces, more rural settings. As such, regular work with T:.O:.T:. is not likely. Further, I took a binding oath characterized by love, to my wife whom I will not betray for the sake of any Teacher, on very similar grounds to those which you describe for not divulging that which you received "under obligation." (The vows I took on getting married were taken with as much weight as any magickal oath, for they were such, in essence.)
However, having seen the possible dementia of the solitary path, I agree with you and Crowley that it is not the best path. The best guard one has against this dementia, in my observation, the magickal diary, constantly kept with vigilance, and frequently reviewed.
Again, thank you for your enlightening reply.
As I close this, I find myself thinking of the hermits in Liber Legis...
Love is the law, love under will.
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Now that I have a little more time than yesterday, I realize I should clarify what I said a bit.
There are definitely - for all of us - stages of the path that have to be worked in a more or less solitary way. In fact, even if we're in some sort of group during these times (and seem totally plugged in), we are still doing our present phase of the Great Work in a solitary way.
Dion Fortune catalogued three stages - I would say concentric circles - along the Path. These were from at least two of the channelled communications she received from her Third Order contacts and were originally presented as a description of how the Order itself is to be structured. The stuff is simply amazing - I have watched its operation for decades, and it seems a correct mapping of the inherent, natural stages of development of human beings. I've outlined these stages in various public talks over the years, and we talk it up a bit more within the Order at points where it is particularly relevant. A few of the points may provide language to help clarify some things I wrote yesterday.
First, let me say something about "inherent, natural stages of [spiritual] development." I see these as substantially the same sort of thing as the inherent, natural physical development of a person, and the parallel but seemingly independent inherent, natural psychological development through which we all pass. Stages can be catalogued, and the species as a whole moves through these in every generation. However, there are some individuals within the species that vary from the standard pattern. There are also extreme variants categorized as pathological where some developmental characteristic is skipped (sometimes as early as the womb, sometimes later). Some traits develop more quickly, others more slowly. Some psychological maturation stages may get skipped (to one's detriment), though the biological impulse for them isn't skipped. All of these variations (which, ultimately, aren't broadly different from the "so when did your toddler start walking?" variety) are within the range of normal (that's a statistical term, not a moral one) and are just how the "standard" works.
Stages of spiritual development aren't (usually) as age-specific as other psychological development. Some of them do seem keyed to a biological clock, and most of them seem biologically rooted - but that's a whole nuther (long) talk about gene activation (which I'm including, in part, in this year's lecture tour talk - like the one in NY in April).
One of those stages of spiritual development is what (following Fortune) we label the Seeker stage. The Seeker stage begins as soon as the first spark for "looking for something" lights up in a person. It can last for years - decades - probably lifetimes, depending on the stage of soul-development. It is especially marked by looking at many things, trying many things, and not (more than briefly - a few weeks to a few years) feeling that one has found "it." I think of it as a very generous "dating period" with the Mysteries - hooking up with this and that, spending time with another thing, cohabiting with a tradition for a while, etc. (You get the drift.)
This stage is enormously important. It isn't to be disparaged for being an early stage. As I said, one can profitably spend many years, or even many lifetimes, in this stage of buffet exposure to spirituality.
At some point, though, one finds "it" - the tradition (of all the diverse and multitudinous traditions and paths, minor trails and teeming arteries, that are available) in which one's soul feels entirely "at home." Carrying our dating metaphor foreward, it's like finding "the one" wiith whom you want to spend the rest of your life. On entering into it, there is usually a trial or probationary or shake-down period (formal or informal) - think of it as an engagement period, some being longer than others - but, "when you know, you KNOW."
This point will be preceeded or marked by some sort of formal initiation (though the range of these can be diverse, so don't take the word too narrowly),
[Sorry... I lost this post due to a misclick or something, but had copied this much to the clipboard. It's about half of what I wrote. I probably won't have time in the near future to write the other half, so I'll trust the Gods that this is the part that was supposed to get posted.]
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Hello Jim, 93.
Thank you for coming back to clarify and expand on your previous post. This is excellent and is helping me to more fully understand my current place on the path. It helps to know that just because I am not able to make a geographical move yet, that there are indeed, a lot of valuable things still being learned and put into practice.
Sadly, I won't be able to make it to Toronto in August this year, but maybe later in the year the opportunity will open up to travel to there or L.A. In the meantime, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that your NYC lecture is viable and will be made available at some point.
Thank you again, for always digging deep to pull out the very best to share with us.
93s,
Donna -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Thanks for the further clarification.
As to not reading too much into your prior statement regarding formal initiation, consider that a natural tendency of mine. Any statement from any source has many meanings, most of which are not what the person making the statement intended, but are the results of the statement being allowed to blossom (or fester) in the minds which receive the statement. Only the minutest fraction of what we perceive comes from "outside", the majority being colored by our own particular data filtering system.
When you get the chance, I'd like to "hear" your thoughts regarding the formal initiation concept in greater detail. Perhaps you've read my initial post under my "self-initiation" topic? If so, I'd also like to hear any comments or observations you have regarding that endeavor and the means of attempting to simulate the A:.A:.'s system for solitary progress.
Regarding this A:.A:. simulation, I intend to use the ritual outlined in Liber Pyramidos to self-initiate at the end of my year of Probation, assuming that I find my magickal record to reflect sufficient work to allow me to pass to "Neophyte" status.
Mind you, of course, that the work seems criminal, to me, if it remains solitary. Anyone who becomes advanced enough to be qualified to do so, I think, has a responsibility to pass along what he or she has learned. Again, though, it is impossible to stress that the Teacher must be ready to Teach, lest in his/her folly, the pupil is led astray, and both suffer for the arrogance of the one.
I suppose that guarding against such eventualities is another advantage to the system employed by your Order and Temple.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@MaKher said
"When you get the chance, I'd like to "hear" your thoughts regarding the formal initiation concept in greater detail."
There just isn't time to write essays like that. I took time this morning and, unfortunately, lost half the post (part of which would have answered you further). There's not much worth saying without saying it all, that's a many hours orientation in the subject.
"Perhaps you've read my initial post under my "self-initiation" topic? If so, I'd also like to hear any comments or observations you have regarding that endeavor and the means of attempting to simulate the A:.A:.'s system for solitary progress."
Haven't read it. However, my position is as stated in the book: I'll happily provide the information, but I don't think it's the way to go. The effort will certainly be valuable, but that's not the same as saying one is working the system. In fact, without someone to monitor, direct, and evaluate your work, it's essentially impossible to work the system.
"Regarding this A:.A:. simulation, I intend to use the ritual outlined in Liber Pyramidos to self-initiate at the end of my year of Probation, assuming that I find my magical record to reflect sufficient work to allow me to pass to "Neophyte" status."
Whatever.
"I suppose that guarding against such eventualities is another advantage to the system employed by your Order and Temple."
Acdtually, it's built in to the A.'.A.'. system itself.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Understood, on all points. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, and the permutations/tangents which have grown therefrom. There are a few points on which we disagree, to be sure, however, I'm not on this board to argue, but to increase my own understanding, and hopefully to help others to do the same.
I'll grant that arguments can open alternative points of view for general consideration. However, I've observed that it is frequently the case on internet discussion boards that arguments tend to be less than productive. As such, I don't feel the urge to indulge this, nor do I feel it incumbent upon me to convince others of my opinion when that is all that it is: an opinion. "Argue not. Convert not." An opinion is irrelevant to this, and has no intrinsic value.
So, thank you again for taking the time to answer my questions, and share your insights.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Dion Fortune catalogued three stages - I would say concentric circles - along the Path. These were from at least two of the channelled communications she received from her Third Order contacts and were originally presented as a description of how the Order itself is to be structured."
Is this in her published work?
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No, it's not.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The first is that I really have no confidence in nor respect in people trying this stuff on their own."
Many governments and religions have lead humanity astray. So there is in some people a distrust to authority, leaders, teachers, masters, and all of that. Propaganda and education have been mixed too, so there is later also some peope distrusting education.
Magick training is not popular or common; the schools are rare, and I bet there are many false / corrupt magick teachers just as there are false and corrupt political and religion teachers.
The result? Most occultists, witches, magicians, psychics, shamans, energy-workers and all the rest, have not gone through a good school, or any school of magick. They're either going to try this on their own, or not at all. So I just call them all chaos magicians.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but describing perception.
It looks to me like most occulty spiritual people never went through any schools of magick, though they read books about it. MaKheru wanted more books to be released to the public, of secret mysteries; probably for the no-school, book reading majority, of the occulty peoples.
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I am surprised there is as much material released as there is.
Thinks back to D&D playing days and hearing about wizards killing each other over spell books
It really is all just preliminary work before initiation. However, I wonder about the initiating current coming from men.
Doesn't initiation really come from the HGA through knowledge and conversation thereof? -
93,
"It really is all just preliminary work before initiation. However, I wonder about the initiating current coming from men.
Doesn't initiation really come from the HGA through knowledge and conversation thereof?
"Initiation marks the beginning of the process, which is completed much later in the K&C of the HGA. So, something else has to commence the process, or non-one ever gets anywhere.
The current doesn't come <i>from</i> men - or women. Officers in a ritual take on certain roles that mean they are prepared to <i>transmit</i> certain energies that trigger the first steps in the long road to K&C. That's what a magician is trained to do - to get him/herself out of the way, so that more than something personal or even individual can be passed through him or her.
As I see it, the problem with self-initiation is that almost inevitably, we set up a ritual that serves our personal needs. We ask for what we want, work for what we want, visualize what we want, and invoke what we want. Or that we <i>think</i> we need. That strikes me as a very good way to ensure that in reality, we block or at least circumscribe our chance to progress. Proper initiation triggers an aspiration <i>beyond</i> consciously comprehended desires, needs and hopes. And the officers partaking in the ceremony should be able to formulate and direct the energies in the rite so that this is the primary aim, and the primary effect.
What the new initiate then does is up to him/her. Usually, there are strong reactions of both a positive and negative character, and having a group of people around who have been through this stage will help stabilize the newly sparked aspiration. Getting used to supra-personal concepts and energies is more easily done in a properly formulated mystery school.
93 93/93,
EM
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Yet those prophets and holy men in the past were without directed initiating currents.
Liber ABA in commenting on the lives of Christ Buddha and Mohammed states that the only common thing in their lives is "Omission". Going off into the wilderness on a vision quest.
"A Nobody goes away, and comes back a Somebody."
I do not doubt that the ordeals and rites of initiation work. In fact I'm waiting for circumstances in my life to change before I arrive at initiation...However, I think this method is very specialized in the general field of occultism.You know you run into so many people that label themselves 9th generation witches....it becomes meaningless. Nearly every book on wicca I have read has chapters on self-initiation and being "solitary" practictioner.
Like all the 10th degree super Soke Hanshi Karateka in the world of martial arts. Meaningless.
I agree with you that there are problems with self initiation. -
93,
If we accept the Gospel stories, Jesus sought and was given an initiation by John the Baptist in the River Jordan. Mohammed had what we might call spontaneous initiation at the hands of the Archangel Gabriel when he received the "Clots of Blood" sura in the Koran. But he was not ignorant of religion, nor uninstructed, at that point. He was a seeker for years before, and already a devout man when that first sura was given. He did not seek what he was given, and was terrified by the experience.
Buddha underwent considerable training after leaving home, which presumably included some form of initation into one or more schools. The fact that he <i>completed</i> his process on his own is a separate issue. Most people, I imagine, find that the climactic stages of the path are intimately individual. And his enlightenment, surely, followed a crossing of the Abyss, or perhaps a transit of the path of Daleth: something no-one but himself could have triggered or performed.
I've not heard of a Master in the Wiccan tradition, but I would bet their more advanced practitioners have had some interesting exchanges with others along the way.
93 93/93,
EM
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@PainMeridian said
"Yet those prophets and holy men in the past were without directed initiating currents."
Oh?
"Liber ABA in commenting on the lives of Christ Buddha and Mohammed states that the only common thing in their lives is "Omission". Going off into the wilderness on a vision quest."
But, according to their histories, at least the first two had significant prior training. (The history isn't so clear to me in Mohammed's case, but I have my suspicions.)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I see some interesting points developed here. I think it would be proper, as far as my initial comments are concerned, to characterize them a bit further. Yes, I am working solo, NOW. I was initiated into Magick several years ago by one whom I shall refer to as D.X. He was not a member of any particular school, but had been trained by a circle of sorts well before he instructed me. And, as regards some of the prior statements regarding my motives, yes, he was, and still is, a Chaos magician. If that is the label employed here regarding anybody who is working on their own, then you can call me such, as well, though I choose to utilize the Thelemic symbols, god-names, etc., largely because they represent well the universe as I perceive it, and I figure it is better to let names stand as they are than to rearrange them, simply to "be different".
More recently, I received a great deal of training in Mysticism from a man I'll call A.v.Th.
That said, yes, I do work largely from books, to expand beyond my training into new areas. But, I do have grounding in practical training. My work derived from A:.A:.'s system is meant only to guide ME on a path to higher attainments, rather than simply the exercise of the basics as taught by D.X. and A.v.Th. I have no intention of claiming that my work based on the Order's system fits me to claim any grade soever. I do not now, nor shall I, claim to represent the A:.A:. in any manner. I am simply utilizing their model to aid my own development.
As I previously stated, I would, after considering Mr. Eshelman's words on the subject, be sorely disappointed to see the Order release their secrets. At the same time, I would find them useful as methods to expand my own research and experimentation.
That said, I agree entirely with the prior characterizations of the past "Holy Men" as having received some sort of initiation prior to their attainments. I would not be anywhere near where I am now had I tried to work from the very start on my own. I trained with these two teachers of mine for years. In fact, my mystical teacher and I still get together rather often to pursue my work. He lives but 200 miles from me, so we can regularly commute back and forth.
Without guidance and instruction of some form, one is rather unlikely to get much of anywhere. No matter how perfectly a ritual is performed, it is highly unlikely that useful results will occur based off of what counts for little more than play-acting.
I suppose that "self-initiation" was a rather poor choice of words on my part, leading to some little controversy over something I didn't correctly word. "Self-development" would have been a better choice of words, as initiation, for me, was performed by two men outside of myself, at least, for those most important of initiations: those that set one on a Path. The initiation that my solitary path is directed toward is that which is to be presided over by only one being: the Holy Guardian Angel.
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@MaKher said
"
In short, it is not the responsibility of any Order or Temple to protect us from our own failings. It is the responsibility of every star to determine for itself the course appropriate to it."Hmm, I think you might have the wrong end of the stick there.
"Mystery is the enemy of truth" is related to speaking openly of the A:.A:. and its principles, not necessarily of its practices.
Some things are "self-secret" (i.e. you won't cotton on to the jargon till you've had experience); and some things just have to be secret because they have more impact when given by a guru to their chela.
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@MaKher said
"What good does it do for the evolution of human consciousness to hoard mystical secrets, "
For the sake of not casting pearls before swine. With what is published in this world, anyone can attain to the highest state possible for a human to achieve. But if you cant see your own inner light, you certainly wont see the light contained within mysterious texts...
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@Parsifal said
"For the sake of not casting pearls before swine. With what is published in this world, anyone can attain to the highest state possible for a human to achieve. But if you cant see your own inner light, you certainly wont see the light contained within mysterious texts..."
I agree that the highest state can be attained with what is already in publication. I might also go so far as to say, each person already has what they need inside them.
I normally see the big secret as.. what is secret. People are spitting out the "secrets" all the time, with the secret being that the information is secret.
In a way, all Thelemites who work on their own are Choas Magicians. They are given Choas, the works of Thelema in one sum. Picking out things as they come, instead of being handed things in an orderly fashion.
Sometimes, we already know something, perhaps have repeated it to our selves, but it is not till it comes from another persons mouth that we realize its true depths.
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93
As Mr Eshelman points out, there are stages of spiritual development and they are less age-specific than other such stages. Ask yourself - if an angry 7 year old comes running to you because he just got beaten up by the school bully, do you say:
"OK, I know how you can win. Here's a loaded gun, I'll explain how to use it."
In giving the gun and the instruction you wouldn't be lying, and as for us all being adults, there are reasons why governments don't publish detailed instructions on how to make a suitcase bomb.
The same principle can apply.
And without wishing to sound like I'm ingratiating myself, everyone, including a lot of people in the UK, could learn a lot from Mr Eshelman's attitude towards magical obligations.
93 93/93