Vampirism & Thelema
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@FallenAngel said
"To Metzareph...
It usually is an interchange. I do not always usually just take and leave the other person vulnerable. My donor at the moment has an excess amount of energy that seems to somehow hinder him. We balance each other out. I'm the Yin, he's the Yang."
Cool! does that help?
In any case, you seem to need more help than what it can be done over cyberspace. You should see a Taoist master or other qualified person.
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We discovered that I cannot do much with reiki for some reason. The energy worker(s) and I discovered that I do thrive off of human energy and that I am able to manipulate it enough to take it into myself and "digest" it.
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@Metzareph said
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@FallenAngel said
"To Metzareph...It usually is an interchange. I do not always usually just take and leave the other person vulnerable. My donor at the moment has an excess amount of energy that seems to somehow hinder him. We balance each other out. I'm the Yin, he's the Yang."
Cool! does that help?
In any case, you seem to need more help than what it can be done over cyberspace. You should see a Taoist master or other qualified person."
Yes it does help. It fixes the problem for awhile.
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BTW, here is one test for filtering whether there is an ego-attachment to this going on.
Are you as willing to call yourself a leech as a vampire?
There's really no dictionary definition of "vampire" that matches your expressed self-definition. (There is, of course, a colloquial use.) OTOH there is a perfectly ordinary use of "leech" which fits.
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Leech fits my description. I even joke around with that term with my donor.
I am not happy being this way. I don't want it. I would change in a heartbeat. -
I find it hillarious that self proclaimed "magicians" who seek to change reality to conform to their Will or desire by using concentration and symbol systems find no room in their cosmology for the idea that the myths of the vampire might point towards an actual spiritual path or individuals, for better or worse...
i'd like to point out that the Tibetans have been using forms of psychic vampirism for thousands of years to heal other individuals.
They call the practice "tong-len"
www.answers.com/topic/tong-lenin the tradition I was first initiated into that dealt with using the vampiric archetype for initiates that found themselves drawn to such things it was one of the first practices given.
guess those tibetans are lhp predators who are interfering with everyone's Will. who would have thought?
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@Jonathan said
"i'd like to point out that the Tibetans have been using forms of psychic vampirism for thousands of years to heal other individuals.
They call the practice "tong-len"
www.answers.com/topic/tong-len
"Jonathan, the definition in the link you gave is: "A practice in Tibetan Buddhism of meditatively ‘sending’ one's good fortune and happiness out to others and ‘receiving’ any misfortune and negativity others may be experiencing."
That doesn't match any standard use of the term "vampire," actual or colloquial. I can't think of any reason one would apply that term to what is above described unless the term "vampire" was important to someone for its own sake.
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@FallenAngel said
"I'd like to make it clear that when I talk about Psychic Vampirism I do not use the term because I identify with the archetype of the Vampire. I am not talking about being an ego driven poser either.
However, I suspect my Vampirism stems from my energy body functioning differently than most.... perhaps an irregularity in the way my Chakras process and store energy. I am not completely sure yet.
When I take the energy from someone I do it with their full consent and knowledge. I am not a predator. Psychic Vampirism doesn't have to be harmful. It can help both the Vampire and the donor. During an energy exchange energy may be cycled and manipulated between the two partners until it is at a higher vibration. The energy can then be used to benefit both people in various ways if needed. However, usually the donor has an excess amount of energy. Therefore no harm is being done and their will isn't being violated as they have agreed to the act.
So... can this thread please get past the idea of Immortal Bloodsucking Vampires and ideas of LHP Predatory Spirituality?"
I have been taught that the depletion of prana stems from the high vibration of the vampire soul (different than a human soul) incarnated into a physical body. Kabbalah speaks of an entirely different vampire, one that is Qliphothic in nature. Ford speaks about using vampiric ritual and elements from a non-vampire standpoint, but doesn't mention prana depletion (would this be more along the Crowley concept?)
I would also like to add that indeed a deep feed from an evolved vampire can clear energy blockages and maintain a clean Shen system. Evolved vampires can also energy heal in ways that Reiki practioners cannot. -
@Jim Eshelman said
"That doesn't match any standard use of the term "vampire," actual or colloquial. I can't think of any reason one would apply that term to what is above described unless the term "vampire" was important to someone for its own sake."
Tong-len might be considered a form of vampirism because it involves non-consensual (even if good-intentioned) energy exchanges with another person, much in the same way the 8th creates non-consensual astral links with one's target.
Btw, read between the lines of AC’s following account:
My precise motive in going to Paris eludes me. I seem to have acted upon general principles. My visit proved eventful. Firstly, I met a man named Sullivan, "a fellow almost damned with a fair wife" named Sylvia. They had been married some time and she had developed a pain in the old place. A friend of hers asked my advice. I gave it, not suspecting the object of her solicitude. The situation suddenly developed by Sylvia and myself starting trouble.
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exactly my point, in certain Thelemic circles Tong-len would be extremely frowned upon b/c it is non-consensual. Also let me point out that they do this first with friends, then with strangers, and finally with enemies. It is Vampyric in nature b/c you are astrally drawing someones negative energies (and sometimes karma's) into your own subtle body and then sending out positive and healing energy. Remember the Vampire does not only take life, it has the power to grant immortality (in the myths). So once again you see the myth playing out in the reality of someone who is highly skilled at the movement of energies from one subtle body to another.. and transforming negative energies into pure life force.
I often wish my first teacher never used the word "vampire" when teaching such things... as I have found that it only points towards something, that is often helpful for young students archetypes.. at a certain point one realizes that the metaphore is just that, a metaphor.
I have found Michelle Belenger's work and her group House Kepharu to be very informative about it.
There are many different theories about why/who/what the whole psychic vampire is... some I find ridiculous or perhaps just not my own experience, some that seems to be exactly what I have found in my own experience.
Another example of vampiric practices is Taoist sexual practices. If thats not vampiric I don't know what is.
Another thing I noticed in my own experience is that as the "vampiric initiate" evolves on his path he/she finds less and less a need to actually draw the life force from other humans directly, which makes me wonder if that initial "hunger" to "feed" upon energies is just pointing towards that individuals Will, which would have something to do with becoming Adept at moving energies and using such abilites for healing and other effects. I don't know, just my own thoughts.
I would also like to mention that people tend to exchange energies unconsciously all the time.. the vampiric initiate is becoming conscious of it, and is using it for a purpose.
or maybe I and other people I have met that feel similiarly are all just crazy
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@Cliff Oth said
"Uni_Verse: Kemet predates the Greek civilization, Hermes is Thoth "
While "Hermeticism" may have been derived from Greek (wasn't it Hellenistic?) civilization, I am sure the core practices were developed before its coming. As you point out "Hermes is Thoth" so Hermeticism could have been derived from earlier Egyptian works.
The 'duality' came to mind from Hermeticism having a more 'inward' aproach while Kismeticism would be 'outward.'
@Jonathan said
"I would also like to mention that people tend to exchange energies unconsciously all the time.. the vampiric initiate is becoming conscious of it, and is using it for a purpose. "
(The above quote is for context, my comment is not a direct reply)
I can see "vampirism" as a path to initiation, though it is not something I would accept personally in my path.
I earlier noted it could be seen as a delusion, in the sense that in my perspective the universe is filled with infinite energy. There is infinite energy in every single cell, atom, quantum, string etcetera of your body. Thusly, the idea of stealing (that is what it boils down to - as you are consciously taking what you do not consider to be yours) another persons energy becomes silly.
The justification that it can be used to heal, reminds me of the quote "the ends justify the means." It is a quote I disagree with, I have always viewed it as "the means define the end."
On a side note : The "k" keeps making me think of "kinetic energy." Taking the energy of motion... life.
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"Johnathan wrote:
Another example of vampiric practices is Taoist sexual practices. If thats not vampiric I don't know what is."I don't think they are vampiric. You can make it vampiric but the intention is a balance of the yin and yang by the natural circulation and interchange of energies of two participants. Like anything else, things can be twisted.
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@Metzareph said
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"Johnathan wrote:
Another example of vampiric practices is Taoist sexual practices. If thats not vampiric I don't know what is."I don't think they are vampiric. You can make it vampiric but the intention is a balance of the yin and yang by the natural circulation and interchange of energies of two participants. Like anything else, things can be twisted."
classic taoist sex practices are all about the male using the orgasm of the female to increase his "jing" or life force, while himself not letting any energy of his own leak out (non-ejaculation). classically, there is no balance, and a female that would actually cause a male to ejaculate and thereby take his life force is called a "dragon lady", a term full of negative connetations to the taoist.
there are modern books on the subject that try to balance this and claim that all taoist female mysteries have been lost b/c it was a male centered society ... but there is no historical evidence of this.
(btw.. the practice of non-ejaculation for the male vampiric initiate is another begining practice... very good for the beginner to learn how to store energy)
for the sake of argument, the theory presented by most modern "spiritual or psychic vampires" would be that for some reason they cannot process this infinte universal life force directly... or they have some sort of chakra imbalance, causing them to have to learn alternative ways of getting that energy/prana... the reason for this is varied but i've heard the explanation of different soul types, certain things in past lifes, and others..
stealing? who's stealing? life force is life force... we don't own it... if you are doing things that would cause your life force to be more intense or vibrating at a higher frequency then the average human then i'm sure you could either easily stop someone from siphoning a bit off your aura or have it quickly replenished anyway....
right?
p.s. - all of you thelemites judging the morality of vampirism ARE all vegans right?? seriously now...
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btw... as to leaches....
from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirudo_medicinalis#In_modern_medicine
Medicinal leeches are now making a comeback. They provide an effective means to reduce blood coagulation, relieve venous pressure from pooling blood, especially after plastic surgery, and stimulate circulation in reattachment operations for organs with critical blood flow, such as eye lids, fingers, and ears.
Because of the minuscule amounts of hirudin present in leeches, it is impractical to harvest the substance for widespread medical use. Hirudin (and related substances) are synthesised using recombinant techniques.
They are also being used in relation to the treatment of various Varicose conditions.
www.medicalleech.info/varicose-veins.htm
hmmm.... as i was saying.....
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@Jonathan said
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for the sake of argument, the theory presented by most modern "spiritual or psychic vampires" would be that for some reason they cannot process this infinte universal life force directly... or they have some sort of chakra imbalance, causing them to have to learn alternative ways of getting that energy/prana... the reason for this is varied but i've heard the explanation of different soul types, certain things in past lifes, and others..
"There are other options, such as looking for a way to process the life force directly, rectify the imbalance.. etcetera. Someone who is addicted to a drug can keep taking the drug or take measures to stop its use.
@Jonathan said
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stealing? who's stealing? life force is life force... we don't own it... if you are doing things that would cause your life force to be more intense or vibrating at a higher frequency then the average human then i'm sure you could either easily stop someone from siphoning a bit off your aura or have it quickly replenished anyway....
"If you do not own it, and I do not own it - where does it come in that you can take it? If you are a vampire, then you would be under the impression that you require the life force of another person to continue living. Right there, by the vampire, a distinction has been made between whose life force is whoms. To then continue on and take the life force, without giving notice to the other person, falls under the definition of "stealing."
@Jonathan said
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p.s. - all of you thelemites judging the morality of vampirism ARE all vegans right?? seriously now...
"THE MEAT EATERS ARE NEXT! Muahahaha!
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Mr Eshelman makes a very im portant point in asking if Fallen Angel is prepared to be called a leech rather than a vampire.
The image of the Byronic vampire is less than 200 years old and unrelated to any previous use of the term. If the attraction is to this image it is an ego massage.
To speak of "Tibetan psychic vampirism" is to perpetuate the modern urban legend that vampirism is a worldwide legendar phenomenon. It is not. the use of the term "vampirism" for anything other than a blood-sucking reanimated corpse is an attempt to latch on to the Byronic image, usually in attempt to find for that two factual pages in books called things like "The Compleat Encyclopedia of Vampires".
Unless Fallen Angel is a reanimated corpse he is not a vampire, and most of his symptoms sound typical of the usual Goth diet, try seeing a dietician.
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I am by no means talking about Byronic/Anne Rice vampires here.. what I am talking about is the Archtype of the Vampire that could be used to point to other psychic/magickal areas of exploration and possibly a method of initiation.
and in this exploration, the defining principles seem to be a compulsion or hunger to move energy from another persons subtle body to the person with said hunger... for whatever reason. By doing so the "vampire" or "leach" hopefully would learn to put that psychic energy to use.
and the Tibetans did have their spiritual Vampires. They called them Heruka (which meant Blood Drinkers) and they were known as Wrathful Dieties, but were enlightened beings in Vajrayana Buddhism.
The opinions and judgements on that in and of itself I find a bit disturbingly close minded coming from Thelemites who believe in the Law of Thelema.
And until you stop using all animal products, your just as much a predator as I am. The fact is, life must consume life to live.
and no where in the conversation did I ever claim to be any sort of Anne Rice or Byronic mythological Vampire. Those intiated into certain Thelemic Sex Magick practices probably practice that type of Vampirism a lot more than I do!
but I suppose we could go back to discussions of Evoking Demons and Angels to visible appearance, traveling out of bodies to other realms and dimensions, various methods of breath control and the repetition of names somebody decided had power to create the ability to have Knowledge and Conversation with a Superior Being that is actually Yourself but not totally You... but upon experiencing it you will move to another stage of human evolution.
You do realize that to the outside observer, such things sound much more insane and ridiculous to the un-initiate than the idea that someone might have the compulsion to move energy into their subtle body using other methods then the act of eating and drinking. (foods and liquids) for whatever reason...
just as you tell that person that "There are other options, such as looking for a way to process the life force directly, rectify the imbalance.. etcetera. Someone who is addicted to a drug can keep taking the drug or take measures to stop its use. " I could very well tell you to stop all the Liber Resh's and Pentagram Rituals your doing and go get some therapy and read a few Tony Robbins books.. (not bashing those practices of course, I do them too.. just making a point)
Your taking an animal (or plants) lifeforce to live... perhaps the young vampire feels he is doing the same yet with energy. Perhaps the trained vampire is simply moving lifeforce without harming anybody to assist in his own personal evolution. Who are we to say, unless we ourselves are of that condition which some call "Vampire" (and perhaps others call Heruka hehe). Haven't met a so called "psychic vampire" yet that has claimed to drain someone's life force to deeply that the person died. I actually question if that would even be possible...
Just adding my opinions here as I am a Thelemite, but I've also studied the subject and have been initiated into Traditions that actually worked with the stuff and when people start saying "oh thats ridiculous!" "how can you take that seriously!" let me remind you of the type of board you are on... seriously its like saying "oh yeah, Mage the roleplaying game is real! you just have to understand you can't really throw fireballs! but Vampires? what a crock..."
(and yes every culture in the world has had vampire myths... I personally believe that like many things in mythology, it points to real truths)
there is a lot of b.s. out there really.. but lets not ridicule other traditions just b/c Crowley never taught it. (well other than that 8th degree thing). I don't think he taught Spare's methods of sigilization either, but I have found it to be quite effective IN EXPERIENCE!
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This thread has wandered more and more into a general vampirism discussion. Please stay on topic. Please constrain all further discussion on this thread to addressing this individual's specific question and his subsequent elaboration of the point.
Specifically, he says he is something he terms a "psychic vampire," which he here (and in subsequent posts) defines. He wants to know how his specific circumstances / practices / etc. will affect him in the long run in the practice of Thelemic rituals and his stiving for the K&C of his HGA. He asks for thoughts and/or advice on this.
If you aren't answering him on this and immediately related points, don't post here.
If you want to talk about other subjects, start a different thread. - I guess I'm going to have to start imposing more on-topic thread discipline here because this has just been going all over the map.
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@sethur said
"Mr Eshelman makes a very im portant point in asking if Fallen Angel is prepared to be called a leech rather than a vampire.
The image of the Byronic vampire is less than 200 years old and unrelated to any previous use of the term. If the attraction is to this image it is an ego massage.
To speak of "Tibetan psychic vampirism" is to perpetuate the modern urban legend that vampirism is a worldwide legendar phenomenon. It is not. the use of the term "vampirism" for anything other than a blood-sucking reanimated corpse is an attempt to latch on to the Byronic image, usually in attempt to find for that two factual pages in books called things like "The Compleat Encyclopedia of Vampires".
Unless Fallen Angel is a reanimated corpse he is not a vampire, and most of his symptoms sound typical of the usual Goth diet, try seeing a dietician."
LOL, vampires are reanimated corpes'? -
93 Fallen Angle,
From reading your posts, if you are not physically healthy, physical health should be your first concern. Seriously. The reason I am saying this is because I found that if i did the LBRP & the Middle Pillar ritual more than twice a day that not only did I become very charged, I became stressed. There is a *Physical Pressure *involved, not to mention it charged the good, the bad & the ugly in my subconscious mind.
I have also read somewhere in one of Dion Fortune books that God is pressure! My point is this: Your physical vehicle needs to be stronger before you can get the full benefit of these types of practices. This should be your first goal IMHO.Now for the K&C of your HGA, I would recommend spending some quiet time everyday with ATU-14 ART or a Rider/Wait style card 14-Temperance, both cards are pictures of the HGA. Some quiet time every day with these images will take you far IMHO.