The making of a probationers robe.
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@frateruranus said
"Crowley would have Probationers working together such as the Rites of Eleusis & reading his working diaries like the Bartzabel working etc. Practicality & the Oaths of the A.'.A.'. makeit impossible for Probationers to not know each other in communities where an A.'.A.'. teacher is present & taking local students. Under the guidance of a higher initiate, say a Zelator or so, the "damage" can be minimalized. Essentially though, the idea is you don't share your personal work with others outside of your superior or when helping an inferior (in the sense of someone under you) by sharing your experiences. Lectures etc. are also useful for an A.'.A.'. instructor who works in private. Also, what of an OTO lodge (or similar org) that has a few members of the Probationer Grade... does that mean they are forbidden to work the Mass or Lodge group rituals or even the meet with each other in social gatherings, workings etc.? The idea is sound, but to execute it literally is impossible."
I believe the point was/is that individual members not work together regarding their specific A.'.A.'. curriculum. They can know each other and attend various functions together but should not be collaborating together regarding their individual A.'. A.'. Work. This would not preclude working together on the Rites of Eleusis or even living together for that matter...
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The principle is that members of the same grade to not interact as such with each other.
That is, they don't get together and have, say, a "Probationer's meeting."
But it's quite common for several to know each other, attend the same classes, show up at the same events, do magick together, talk about any number of things together, etc. etc. etc. - but they aren't meeting as A.'.A.'. members per se.
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RifRaf, you are just re-iterating my point in different words.
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That is what I meant Rifraf, I was unclear in my original post
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Yes, some of them are A.'.A.'. Probationers, and no, they are not working together in that system. That is a reunion of the Collegium ad Lux et Nox, an external work of A.'.A.'. that we develop in Brazil.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@frateruranus said
"Some lineages use a black robe with the same symbols nowadays to differentiate the 0=0 robe from the 5=6 robe."I see. Nope, that's wrong. (Not a blind, just wrong.) It's one of the more important symbols of the 0=0 robe that it is exactly the same as the robe of Adeptus Minor Without."
In Ch. 23 of Magick Without Tears we are told that for a 0=0, "plain black is correct; and the Unicursal Hexagram might be embroidered upon the breast". Is this because the 0=0 robe doubled for 5=6, & possibly the original 0=0 robe design was made exclusive to 5=6 toward the end of 666's career on account of the micro/macro uniting aspects of the design?
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@Arsihsis said
"In Ch. 23 of Magick Without Tears we are told that for a 0=0, "plain black is correct; and the Unicursal Hexagram might be embroidered upon the breast". Is this because the 0=0 robe doubled for 5=6, & possibly the original 0=0 robe design was made exclusive to 5=6 toward the end of 666's career on account of the micro/macro uniting aspects of the design?"
That passage has always been strange to me, and contradicts all other information available from any other source. It always seemed to me, from the syntax of the passage, that Crowley was admitting he couldn't remember and was making up something on the spot that might be useful to the person to whom he was writing.
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I heard something similar about the Probationers robe.
I was informed categorically that if my Probationers robe did not conform to some secret design that the teller would not disclose then the the lineage was not genuine.
To me this sounds like a lot of B******t but some people take these things very seriously.
as far as I am concerned the robe designs from liber vesta would be sufficient, otherwise why would they be in an official libri of the A.'.A.'.? -
It isn't an official liber of A.'.A.'.. Liber Vesta didn't exist until a few years ago. It is a new document prepared by its publishers.
I believe it was created sincerely, from the best information its authors could find at the time. However, either this was only briefly correct, or at least Crowley significantly changed it in the 20 years following. I base this on a page Israel Regardie allowed me to copy, which he had typed for Crowley while serving as his secretary.
However, for the Probationer's robe, there has never been any doubt - for that one, Liber Vesta and my list from Regardie and remarks in Liber VIII all agree. I wouldn't trust anyone claiming a secret esoteric version of it that differs from this one design.
PS - Picking Crowley's Adeptus Minor motto for your online handle?
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I didnt know that vespa was a recent addition, thanks for the info.
I got the online handle from J D Gunthers book, once I looked it up and found out what it meant I took a liking to it.
I suppose no-one ever used Perdurabo as a handle?:)as regards to the robe question, I think I'll just ignore the nay sayers and get on with the work, it just annoys me that these little quibbles keep coming up between so called Lineages.
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I think I asked this question some where else. What type of cloth should be used for the robe?
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@fnewburn4236 said
"I think I asked this question some where else. What type of cloth should be used for the robe?"
There's no absolute requirement. Traditionally, magical robes have been made from linen or silk, but those often prove impractical.
From a practical angle, a light-weight wool-cotton blend is very nice, wears well, etc.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@fnewburn4236 said
"I think I asked this question some where else. What type of cloth should be used for the robe?"There's no absolute requirement. Traditionally, magical robes have been made from linen or silk, but those often prove impractical.
From a practical angle, a light-weight wool-cotton blend is very nice, wears well, etc."
I appreciate this information… as for no absolute requirement does that mean I can use anything for the gold, pentacle and hexagram … like shiny material?
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@fnewburn4236 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@fnewburn4236 said
"I think I asked this question some where else. What type of cloth should be used for the robe?"There's no absolute requirement. Traditionally, magical robes have been made from linen or silk, but those often prove impractical.
From a practical angle, a light-weight wool-cotton blend is very nice, wears well, etc."
I appreciate this information… as for no absolute requirement does that mean I can use anything for the gold, pentacle and hexagram … like shiny material?"
The gold braid usually would be metallic (though some choose a nonmetallic gold ribbon or braid). The pentagram and hexagram... there's no exact specification. (Vivid colors are usually thought desirable, so felt is often used.) BTW I assume you know that several pictures of the Probationer's robe survive from a hundred years ago.
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Thanks Much
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It doesn't make sense to me that the design of the robe would have a blind in it. Do people think this is a Crowley blind or a modern blind? I dont get it. Crowley's blinds served the purpose of making you think where they were presented as riddles in his writing, I don't see why he would intentionally have his probationers dressed in the wrong attire. Thats about as weak an argument as Skinner saying that the Golden Dawn atrributions of the elemental tools was a blind on their part. Why would they have their adepts making the tools in the wrong manner?
Sometimes it seems like people just want to come off as vague as possible so people believe they know some real worthwhile secrets. A secret robe design doesn't seem like a real worthwhile secret to me and doesn't mean a whole lot.
Jim, thanks for the simple as hell how to robe making instructions, I may do that, but fold the material in half again and measure it from one half of my body so that I can get each side symmetrical. I've wanted a robe for a long time, the only instructions I've seen for one came from those goofballs the Ciciero's and it seemed overly complex and ones I've seen online are way too spendy, even for a nice ceremonial robe.
Now I need to figure out a way to make a nice big hood for it too. -
For the hood, use two of the four triangles that you cut from under the arms.
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Just curious has there ever been any distinction between the robes of male and female practitioners?
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From what I have heard, the female's robes generally contain females; and the male's robes generally contain males. But not always.
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haha:)