What Destroys the Destroyer?
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I bet if you started gnawing on your tail you would find it tasty!
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@Frater Pantha said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"And the difference between the two is...?"Are you trying to say that BAPHOMET is the product of BABALON's experiences -- so both are correct?
Are you trying to say something else?"Before reading all of the way through your original post, and without knowing what Jerry had written previously, my answer to the basic question was: Ecstasy. That would still be my basic answer.
You seemed to be contrasting that to Baphomet. The essence of Baphomet is union of opposites, which always results in (or, more accurately, is accompanied by) ecstasy.
These aren't the same, but they're close enough that I was curious why you thought there was such a stark difference between them as seemed implied by your sentences, "I get the feeling that I am missing something. Are they both right? Or is one wrong? I am a bit confused here."
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@Jim Eshelman said
"You seemed to be contrasting that to Baphomet. The essence of Baphomet is union of opposites, which always results in (or, more accurately, is accompanied by) ecstasy"
This seems like a one-sided interpretation of Baphomet. As someone once put it, Baphomet is seated upon Malkuth but represents the entire Tree of Life, understanding and controlling the universal process of solve et coagula (according to Eliphas Levi) - a process symbolized in Asian cultures by the dynamic Taoist ying/yang symbol or Buddhist swastika.
Baphomet as merely the union of opposites leading to ecstasy focuses on solve, whereas coagula indicates Baphomet is capable of also giving birth to forms, or materializing spirit. Perhaps explaining why he cannot be gendered into either a man or woman.
Does Eliphas' Baphomet actually bear any resemblance to the historical Templar deity? I don't know, but I would be interested to hear any information to piece together this elusive principle.
Returning to the opening post, the union of the Lion and Snake is undeniably the gnostic Chnoubis. But is it also Baphomet because we have the union of the Lion and Snake and Baphomet is the union of opposites? This seems more like an example of easy syncretization simply because not much is known about the historical Baphomet..
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@Uni_Verse said
"I bet if you started gnawing on your tail you would find it tasty!"
Uni, this made me laugh ...
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@Frater Pantha said
"The "destroyer" needs to be identified."
Oh, sorry. I forget what's not obvious or known sometimes
"The Destroyer" in this context is the ego.
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@h2h said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"You seemed to be contrasting that to Baphomet. The essence of Baphomet is union of opposites, which always results in (or, more accurately, is accompanied by) ecstasy"This seems like a one-sided interpretation of Baphomet. As someone once put it, Baphomet is seated upon Malkuth but represents the entire Tree of Life, understanding and controlling the universal process of solve et coagula (according to Eliphas Levi) - a process symbolized in Asian cultures by the dynamic Taoist ying/yang symbol or Buddhist swastika."
There are many ways to address Baphomet, and the one I gave above is not entirely (for example) that which is given in a certain degree of Temple of Thelema.
But what I wrote is the one core meaning of Baphomet within the O.T.O. mysteries. (I might be speaking out-of-degree on this one, but I don't think it's really a significant secret). In any Crowley reference on the matter, that's the interpretation we'd be expecting - the one he encoded into the idea of Baphomet for his presentation of the Templer mysteries and from which he took his name within that fraternity.
"Does Eliphas' Baphomet actually bear any resemblance to the historical Templar deity? I don't know, but I would be interested to hear any information to piece together this elusive principle. "
BTW, I wasn't taking any reference to Baphomet in this thread as having anything to do per se with either Levi or ancient Templers, but with Crowley's use of it especially as embodied by him within the Mystery system of O.T.O.
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@Jim Eshelman said
""The Destroyer" in this context is the ego."
Hm. I would have thought it was Death. -
@gmugmble said
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@Jim Eshelman said
""The Destroyer" in this context is the ego."Hm. I would have thought it was Death."
Ecstasy doesn't destroy death. It destroys the appearance or perception of death... which are formed by the ego.
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The Union of the Lion and the Serpent is also the gnostic deity Aeon.
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@sethur said
"The Union of the Lion and the Serpent is also the gnostic deity Aeon."
From the Qabalistic model on which Liber XV is based, the simplest (but not the only) way to understand it is that it is everything represented by the letter Teth.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"There are many ways to address Baphomet, and the one I gave above is not entirely (for example) that which is given in a certain degree of Temple of Thelema.
But what I wrote is the one core meaning of Baphomet within the O.T.O. mysteries. (I might be speaking out-of-degree on this one, but I don't think it's really a significant secret). In any Crowley reference on the matter, that's the interpretation we'd be expecting - the one he encoded into the idea of Baphomet for his presentation of the Templer mysteries and from which he took his name within that fraternity."
If I may point out, BAPHOMET is one of the “Mystery of Mystery” in the Gnostic Mass, along with CHAOS and BABALON, to remind us that we know nothing. And is this not marvelous? For this is a secret key of the Law.
On this “Mystery of Mystery”. Some writer once noted that the concept of divinity or sacred mystery is never described by a single point, arche or personality in the hagiographical writing of the Jews. Rather one finds descriptions like the “Holy of Holies” in which a word is doubled to signify the concept of difference. The sacred point or identity that they describe is not unlike an arabesque, baroque or chaotic pattern, whose nature recedes into infinity when one attempts to grasp it. Hence expressions like he was a “man among men” or a special event would be described as a “day of days”. The question was how to describe a particular identity, implying a certain uniqueness, against the horizons of Being stretching infinitely into the past and future? To what externalpoint does one refer to describe something or someone else, to measure, to identify, to gain one’s bearings?
Kafka was acutely aware of this when describing the sublimity of modernity, the labyrinthine corridors of authority and power, like a Russian marushka doll, the answer that never arrives…
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Frater Pantha said
"The "destroyer" needs to be identified."Oh, sorry. I forget what's not obvious or known sometimes
"The Destroyer" in this context is the ego."
I didn't actually say that the destroyer needs to be identified (I think there must have been some confusion of posts), but since we are on the subject the Red Flame number 2 says that the destroyer is restriction. I understand that the ego can be limiting and restricting but is this being viewed in a different context? Or in the same context in your opinion?
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I haven't read what Jerry wrote, so I don't know how he meant that.
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@Frater Pantha said
"I didn't actually say that the destroyer needs to be identified (I think there must have been some confusion of posts)"
Baphomet has been playing in this thread..
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93
The Lion and the Serpent is known in OTO circles to mean SPERM.
If one understands the the Mass as 9th degree operation then it all becomes quite clear. DEATH is the destroyer, and so therefore the SPERM (Life) destroys death.Fraternally
93, 93/93INB
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@gmugmble said
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@Jim Eshelman said
""The Destroyer" in this context is the ego."
Hm. I would have thought it was Death."id agree:)
also see the ART card...the Lion has a serpent for a tail...this card is very keyed in to the mysteries of the Mass and the hermit triad.
Lon Duquette would insist that the Lion and the Serpent are one thing, as ive said, sperm....The Lion refering to the massive head and the serpent the slithering tail....
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Frater Pantha said
"The "destroyer" needs to be identified."Oh, sorry. I forget what's not obvious or known sometimes
"The Destroyer" in this context is the ego."
You make it seem as if your interpretation is obvious and well-known... in what sense is the ego 'the destroyer' anyhow? It seems like the more 'obvious' interpretation would be Apep/Apophis the destroyer...
"For Thou art He! Yea, Thou shalt swallow up Asi and Asar, and the children of Ptah. Thou shalt pour forth a flood of poison to destroy the works of the Magician. Only the Destroyer shall devour Thee; Thou shalt blacken his throat, wherein his spirit abideth. Ah, serpent Apep, but I love Thee!" -LXV
...or Shiva the destroyer - both Apep/Apophis and Shiva would connect this idea with Death as others suggest. I can see how 'the destroyer' would be restriction or that which creates limits as a completely viable, although less obvious, interpretation.
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
""The Destroyer" in this context is the ego."You make it seem as if your interpretation is obvious and well-known... in what sense is the ego 'the destroyer' anyhow? It seems like the more 'obvious' interpretation would be Apep/Apophis the destroyer..."
That's what destroys the destroyer - Apep/Apophis is one with the "lion and serpent" in this context.
The ego is the destroyer in numerous ways - especially as the falsifier or separator, etc. (pick your own favorite from a long list of synonyms). What is being invoked in this ritual passage is what overwhelms and thus annihilates the invalidator.
""For Thou art He! Yea, Thou shalt swallow up Asi and Asar, and the children of Ptah. Thou shalt pour forth a flood of poison to destroy the works of the Magician. Only the Destroyer shall devour Thee; Thou shalt blacken his throat, wherein his spirit abideth. Ah, serpent Apep, but I love Thee!" -LXV"
The Devourer is here destroying the ego-mask.