Fixed-air Aquarius is now the Eagle?!?

[Qoheleth]

There is, in the Cipher Manuscript (the foundational document of the G.'.D.'.), a list of attributions that could have spawned the confusion.

hermetic.com/gdlibrary/cipher/cipher9.htm

The CM shows Aquarius being water, and Scorpio being air.
However, most would say according to astrology that Aquarius = Fixed Air, and Scorpio = Fixed Water.

[Jim Eshelman]

@Qoheleth said

"The CM shows Aquarius being water, and Scorpio being air.
However, most would say according to astrology that Aquarius = Fixed Air, and Scorpio = Fixed Water."

Most would say this according to relatively recent astrology - the last 500-600 years or so.

See the discussion above. The Elements, as known in modern times, were a Medieval or possibly Renaissance invention solely for the Tropical zodic. The Triplicities were discussed in earlier times, but not in relation to elements; similarly, elements were discussed in ancient times, but not in a geometrically balanced pattern.

The Kerubic figures are Babalonian in origin. The elemental attributions of the era seem to have been inherited from the Egyptians. Here's where part of the mix-up occurs. To the Egyptians, Aquarius was decisively a water sign - in mark the flood of the Nile and meant "bringer of the waters." Scorpio was an air-sign because the annual 40-day blistering winds that drove scorpions, snakes, and other critters in from the desert were during the month of the Full Moon in Scorpio - and the patron goddess of Scorpio had a name meaning "she who relieves the windpipe." (Probably a prurient pun in there also.) The Man was the Scorpio-Man which was anciently Air - and the Eagle was Aquila, adjacent to Aquarius, which was anciently Water.

There are still important magical and alchemical contexts in which the Leo-Aquarius axis is importantly a Fire-Water axis, alchemical "lion & eagle," etc.

But as the elemental patterns stabilized, some ideas shifted. Aquarius was regarded as an Air sign, and the eagle belonged to Aquarius. The Man belonged to Scorpio, which came to be regarded as a Water sign.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

Fascinating. I always wondered about the elemental ambiguities... like Capricorn, with the ancient symbol of the sea-goat.

[Qoheleth]

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@Qoheleth said
"The CM shows Aquarius being water, and Scorpio being air.
However, most would say according to astrology that Aquarius = Fixed Air, and Scorpio = Fixed Water."

Most would say this according to relatively recent astrology - the last 500-600 years or so.

See the discussion above. The Elements, as known in modern times, were a Medieval or possibly Renaissance invention solely for the Tropical zodic. The Triplicities were discussed in earlier times, but not in relation to elements; similarly, elements were discussed in ancient times, but not in a geometrically balanced pattern.

The Kerubic figures are Babalonian in origin. The elemental attributions of the era seem to have been inherited from the Egyptians. Here's where part of the mix-up occurs. To the Egyptians, Aquarius was decisively a water sign - in mark the flood of the Nile and meant "bringer of the waters." Scorpio was an air-sign because the annual 40-day blistering winds that drove scorpions, snakes, and other critters in from the desert were during the month of the Full Moon in Scorpio - and the patron goddess of Scorpio had a name meaning "she who relieves the windpipe." (Probably a prurient pun in there also.) The Man was the Scorpio-Man which was anciently Air - and the Eagle was Aquila, adjacent to Aquarius, which was anciently Water.

There are still important magical and alchemical contexts in which the Leo-Aquarius axis is importantly a Fire-Water axis, alchemical "lion & eagle," etc.

But as the elemental patterns stabilized, some ideas shifted. Aquarius was regarded as an Air sign, and the eagle belonged to Aquarius. The Man belonged to Scorpio, which came to be regarded as a Water sign."

Cool. Thank you for shedding a little more light on the confusion.

[Jim Eshelman]

@AvshalomBinyamin said

"Fascinating. I always wondered about the elemental ambiguities... like Capricorn, with the ancient symbol of the sea-goat."

To ancient astrologers, the first half of Capricorn was considered earthy, and the last half watery.

[Danica]

"wikipedia wrote:
One myth says that when the goat-god Pan was attacked by the monster Typhon, he dove into the Nile; the parts above the water remained a goat, but those under the water transformed into a fish."

[Jim Eshelman]

That's an after-the-fact Greek explanation. The actual origin is this: Egyptian astrology was all lunar, adn the sign origins came from recurring phenomena normal to the month when a given constellation rise in the east at sunset (being the first stars visible in the sky each night) or, alternately (i.e. same thing) the constellation of the Full Moon.

During the Aries Age, the Moon was full in Capricorn during the month of the summer solstice; so they primarily picked a creature known for climbing the highest, just as the Sun did. But the tail-end of that month was the start of the annual Nile flood, so they gave him a fish tail.

Then came the month of the full flood - the month when the Moon was full in Aquarius, "bringer of the waters." The next month, the Nile flood was still pretty high and the land was swarming with water and fishes, so they named the stars of that month's Full Moon after the fishes. By the next month, the water had receded enough that they could start the annual separation of the rams from the ewes, so they named that constellation after the sheep. A month later the ground had dried out enough to plow, so they hooked up the oxen and named the constellation of the Full Moon after the bull - and so on, around the circle. (Egypt was the only country anywhere nearby that plowed and planted in November!)

[Jim Eshelman]

@Alrah said

"*Is this tripartate nature of Scorpio due only to AC, or was it around before he commented on it? *

The tripartate nature of Scorpio (as described to me by a native) was as Scorpian, Eagle and Dove when I first heard it. There was a complicated story attached as to how the Scorpian transforms into the Eagle and then the Dove. It was all to do with the spiritual evolution of the sexual nature. I'll see if I can recall it today for you..."

Geburah has three aspects - Din, Geburah, and Pachad - but if there was anything like this before AC then it would have been in some Theosophical document not known to me. It has never been part of the astrological teachings per se.

[Oliver P]

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@Alrah said
"*Is this tripartate nature of Scorpio due only to AC, or was it around before he commented on it? *

The tripartate nature of Scorpio (as described to me by a native) was as Scorpian, Eagle and Dove when I first heard it. There was a complicated story attached as to how the Scorpian transforms into the Eagle and then the Dove. It was all to do with the spiritual evolution of the sexual nature. I'll see if I can recall it today for you..."

Geburah has three aspects - Din, Geburah, and Pachad - but if there was anything like this before AC then it would have been in some Theosophical document not known to me. It has never been part of the astrological teachings per se."

For what it's worth, the scorpion, snake, eagle triad is mentioned by Paul Foster Case in his "Tarot Fundamentals" material on Atu XIII. BOTA, I'm sure, wouldn't like to think he got anything from AC

But maybe Crowely influenced Case more than he admits. As I pointed out above (a good while ago!) the Scorpio-Eagle parallel was entrenched in GD symbology.

I'm never sure who got what from whom in occult circles. Though they would disavow any direct debt to Crowley, BOTAns (or my local ones anyway) have a good deal of time for Dion Fortune, who in turn acknowledges her debt to AC.

Maybe it would be worth trying to find a scorpion, snake, eagle reference in Fortune.

OP

[Iapetos]

@Jim Eshelman said

"I don't think it's a switch at all. I think people had it {******} up for 1,500 years or more. The real error is in mistaking the eagle as having anything to do with Scorpio, when the only eagle in the sky is Aquila - in equatorial juxtaposition to Aquarius. Similarly, the "man" figure isn't Aquarius but, rather, Ophiuchus - shown in Babylonian boundary stones as half human, half scorpion - and existing in the sky juxtaposed to Scorpio."

93

What book(s) should one read to learn about the "original" zodiac before later interpretations caused misunderstandings like the Scorpio/Eagle confusion?

93,93/93

Thanks.

[Jim Eshelman]

@Iapetos said

"What book(s) should one read to learn about the "original" zodiac before later interpretations caused misunderstandings like the Scorpio/Eagle confusion?"

Cyril Fagan, Astrological Origins. Rupert Gleadow, The Origin of the Zodiac. Those will give you a serious start on an amazing journey!

[Oliver P]

Scorpion/Serpent/Eagle is linked, surely, to Platonic and Neo-Platonic archetypes about the levels of the human being. I've been building what was originally a nice-looking table - but this forum software doesn't seem to be very table-friendly (or even tab-friendly)

Mind - Heart - Loins
Eagle - Serpent/Lion - Scorpion
Salt - Mercury - Sulphur
Hermit - Lover - Man of Earth
The - le - ma
Circle - Triangle - Square

The Lion seems to belong in the middle layer because of the Platonic "noble emotions" (courage, etc) and its Thelemic pairing with the Serpent [??]

It's tempting to try putting Nuit, Hadit Ra-Hoor-Khuit in there, but I'm not sure which belongs in which row of the table.

Also (motivated by the outcome of certain BOTA-related meditations) I've been wondering about the possible esoteric symbolism of the Wizard of Oz's Scarecrow/Tin Man/Lion (brain/heart/'nerve')

OP

Yes, I am following the BOTA courses at the moment - one reason why I haven't been here for such a long time; didn't want to muddle the philosophies; but my email let me know this old thread had been revivified.

[Oliver P]

Jim mentions a possible Theosophical source for the scorpion-snake-eagle triad.

I included circle-triangle-square in my table thinking of a Theosophical document I discovered when exploring meanings of those three symbols in an entirely different context. Unfortunately, I can't find it again! As I remember it had stick figures with circle as head, triangle (point down) as upper body and square as abdomen; the point being that those three aspects of our nature - thinking, emotional and "animal" instinctual - should be brought into an appropriate balance.

If anyone can find that document it may cast light on scorpion-snake-eagle.

OP