Phenomenal Fascination
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I appreciate your further thoughts Augur!
- To clarify my first question: your initial post said "An Adepts role is to call these independent forces of destruction into an organizational methodology in order to serve the singularity of existence"...
and I was bringing up the idea that everyone "organizes" differently, so isn't that "Way" that each of us "organizes" an extension of our particular personality?
Couldn't it be said that "all roads lead to rome" and all personalities lead to kether... something like that. And I guess I'm bringing up the further point that there may not be One path, but many suited to each person, and it's only by acknowledging our personalities that we might better understand our personal path...
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I disagree... and I think what's throwing me for the loop is the nirvana you added to your lists of Gods... I understand Nirvana as the blowing out of a candle, and God as the supreme candle... ultimately I believe these are archetypes of different things...
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Can a person ever be truly free from "the trappings of seperatness"... maybe glimpses of that experience... but do you believe it's a state of mind that you can hold onto?
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My "I will make myself perfect" can be changed to "I will make myself worthy of kether consciousness" and the general idea of my question still stands... how does becomming an adept or climbing the tree of life differ from an egotistical pursuit...
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"1. To clarify my first question: your initial post said "An Adepts role is to call these independent forces of destruction into an organizational methodology in order to serve the singularity of existence"...
and I was bringing up the idea that everyone "organizes" differently, so isn't that "Way" that each of us "organizes" an extension of our particular personality?
Couldn't it be said that "all roads lead to rome" and all personalities lead to kether... something like that. And I guess I'm bringing up the further point that there may not be One path, but many suited to each person, and it's only by acknowledging our personalities that we might better understand our personal path... "
Uniqueness is accounted for just as every positional point on a sphere has a unique perspective while not being separate from the sphere itself. The body, the personality, the methodologies aforementioned are mechanisms. They are necessary and actual. There is no one way of doing anything, nor is there any one way of seeing something from infinite unique positional points. Everyone has a name for the Angel, however the Angel is unchanging.
My main point in this diatribe is to point out a perspective in which a particular base phenomenological ability or experience becomes the
sole fascination of an individual. To bring a realism to what we are in our base existence, and what that base existence supports when directed in a course of Will, or what that base existence creates when one particular aspect becomes more important than it really is.For instance an empath can become so caught up in their ability to intuit other people's emotional states that they lose themselves in a world of confusion and mania. Attempting to experience other uniqueness persistently in order to avoid the opening of these abilities to observe their own uniqueness. Failing to direct these abilities in conformity with Will, failing to hear the voice of the Angel, the encouragement of the divine, the voice of silence. And in the end failing to fulfill the purpose of this unique perspective.
This is not really an extension of personality or phenomenology in-and-of-themselves it is the alignment of all these mentioned mechanisms. Which I believe does not result in the expansion the individual ego, yet instead it results in the fine tuning of a unique and efficient system that informs and is informed by the divine. Each particular mechanism is necessary in this sort of system, and yet serves only its particular role in the greater system. If one or the other of these mechanisms is oversized or overpowered, the system itself fails.
"2. I disagree... and I think what's throwing me for the loop is the nirvana you added to your lists of Gods... I understand Nirvana as the blowing out of a candle, and God as the supreme candle... ultimately I believe these are archetypes of different things... "
Ultimately like I said intellectually I would agree with you. Nirvana is more akin to the state of being. However, it does also represent in the sense that I am speaking, unification with the divine. It is the wholeness of consciousness idea that I am pointing to. Nirvana is not the absence of existence it can be equated to the Great Sea.
"3. Can a person ever be truly free from "the trappings of seperatness"... maybe glimpses of that experience... but do you believe it's a state of mind that you can hold onto?"
This may be romanticized, but yes, I think that it is possible. It is unproven and untested from my end where only the smallest glimpses have ever been revealed. However the more I find myself as being connected to everything else, the less separate I feel. So yes I think it is possible.
"4. My "I will make myself perfect" can be changed to "I will make myself worthy of kether consciousness" and the general idea of my question still stands... how does becomming an adept or climbing the tree of life differ from an egotistical pursuit..."
Maybe it is not any different, except that perhaps it is the only pursuit worthy of the ego. I will need to think more about this question.
Thanks this is engaging.
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@Ankh said
"I sat down last night, reread your post and typed a lengthy point by point response. But, on the way in to work this morning it occurred to me; what do you expect from humanity? What standards are you holding everyone up too?"
I am not holding humanity at large to any standard, the opening line was directed at people who approach this path. Everyone else is held to the standards of their oaths and the direction of their Angel. All of this could be completely presumptuous, however my point was to bring up the unhealthy fascination that many people have with strictly phenomenal magic. I would love to see more holes poked in what I have said, do not hold back.
@Uni_Verse said
"Would you say: it is our ego that makes the distinction between masturbation and union with Kether conciousness, God, whatever label it is that you prefer?"
How long did it take you to think that one up? There is no necessary distinction that needs to be made here. It was a descriptor that my ego choose to discuss vice.
"Always unto me" would be the standard that I would view my own vices by, and yes it would be my ego doing so as I am still caught up in many of the trappings that I have mentioned; as I still experience myself as separate. And perhaps, its words that are my vice. So now I will shut up...
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@augur said
"Any phenomenal fascination is no different than my last cigarette, or bong rip, or the last line you did, or the last drink you had, or the last time you masturbated for pure pleasure's sake. They are all vices, misdirections of a more pure force. I am not chastising myself or anyone else, just factually stating the nature of our vices. "
I keep looking at the word "misdirections." It implies a correct direction and a waste of force best used only in that correct direction. I can generally agree with that, but I have to relativize the "correct direction" a bit. One of my more abstract conceptions of the Angel is the personification of a "direction," or one could get closer to the idea if one said, "ray" or "vector."
Coming out of the abstract and into experience, the concept kind of separates into "guide" and "path." Perhaps that will help explain how I use "direction" to recombine "guide" and "path" into more of a unified concept of "vector" or "Self-direction."
As such, big big bong rips, or masturbation, or smoking cigarettes could all be functions of my "direction." Or, they could be complete wastes of time and "force."
@augur said
"An Adept's role is to call these independent forces of destruction into an organizational methodology in order to serve the singularity of existence. Not to extend the cause of a particular personality; instead to extend the cause of God, Allah, Ahuru Mazda, Kether, the Angel, Nirvana... It is to elevate the leaden state of base existence into the conquering golden state of the divine child. To nurture that child into a form worthy of unification with the triune singularity. "
They key is to organize my masturbation, bong rips, cigarette smoking, and drinking into a pattern that fully and perfectly reinforces my "direction." Each of these is a thing with both creative and destructive possibilities. Each can be used to ease anxiety. Each creates a desire for more of the same. Each can be a hinderance. Each can be a blessing. The same is true of any phenomenal experience. Each is perfectly relative...
... perfectly relative to the "main direction" of my life.
For those who would be perfect, longevity seems to be one of the things usually thrown into the mix. And this means health concerns, psychological and social as well as physical. I'm pretty sure this is the direction Augur is coming from by using the terms "vices."
My two... Open for dicussion...
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93 All,
"Phenomenal results seem to be of high interest to many who approach this path. Aetheric manifestation, channeling, NLP, scrying, goetia, and even the finest aspects of psychism, are all simply tools that in-and-of-themselves have no independent value whatsoever. Unless of course it is to drag down the magician into a pit of egomaniacal self-interest which will ultimately be their end. "
I think... this is what initially draws a lot of people in to occultism & mysticism Augur. Money, sex, control over other people and a need to feel important. Right or wrong, these are the motivates for the majority of humanity and would-be occultist. There is place and a stage for them in our evolution. I also believe these motives serves as an on ramp for true spiritually by the resulting pain of selfishness. When I see these motives. (I also see them in myself.) I can't help but think ...they will learn as I had to, as all children have to.
"The truth about these techniques or methodologies is that each represents an inherently human ability. In actuality, we employ them in our base daily existence with no conscious effort whatsoever. Our untrained thoughts, emotions and words are all mechanisms that accomplish the results of phenomenal magic without the effort of false intention. We manifest demons and angels to aid us. We succeed and fail based on the language of our thoughts, words and deeds. Our imaginations have created the world as we know it. Our muses inspire us to productive and unproductive ends on an ongoing basis. We communicate with the mass of humanity continually while unaware of the influence this vast group mind; let alone, the more narrow group minds with which we interact. We communicate with each other directly on even deeper levels sharing energetic particles. This is who we are and what we do without adding to, studying about or understanding any of it. "
That’s beautifully expressed Augur. If we look at pain in the evolution of the species, I would have to say that pain equilibrates; the species has to come to the realization that causation is internal and that the outer world is not the problem, the big problem we all have to boldly face, is the control of our emotions, thoughts, words and deeds. Maybe the unhealthy phenomenal results people are looking for are a reaction to pain or a sense of inadequacy in there life.
"So what is special about enhancing one particular ability in-and-of-itself to serve slave to the personality?"
I would say there is none. I am on the clock right now, I post some more later. Thanks for the candor Augur.
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"the species has to come to the realization that causation is internal and that the outer world is not the problem"
cough...what...cough...
The act or process of causing... is internal
and the "the species" has realized this
and the outer world is not "the problem"
you give me a sentence Ankh, where as Augur gave me a whole diatribe, but I don't even know where to begin...
Excuse me... I'm not meaning any disrespect... maybe my first question is... please explain what you just said in simpler words for my straw brain. Some times people go to fast for me...
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93 Scarecrow,
"Quote Scarecrow: Excuse me... I'm not meaning any disrespect... maybe my first question is... please explain what you just said in simpler words for my straw brain. Some times people go to fast for me..."
No offense taken Scarecrow. I think it’s an Excellent Question.
Also, I would never suggest that you have a straw brain. FWIW, two of my favorite questions are: So What? And… Your Point Is? 
"Quote Scarecrow:
The act or process of causing... is internal?
and the "the species" has realized this?
and the outer world is not "the problem"?"To answer your questions I would have to start a whole new tread.
I will try and post it some time soon.
I considered quoting this article www.lvx.org/Archive/tarot.htm after some questions came up between Aum 418 and I heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?p=19247&highlight=#19247 about the use of the tarot and symbols but, I just have not found the time to do it.
(*I have been working 16 hours a day 6 days a week for the last 6 months. Hey! There is my 666!
.) *The article above should answer your questions.It was written by Rev. Paul Clark the Stewart of the Fraternity of the Hidden Light. It’s amazing. Enjoy!
www.lvx.org/Archive/tarot.htm -
In many systems, including AC's Thelema, the vast scope of experiences (liberation, unity but also pleasure, pain, disgust, morbid self-interest) are part & parcel of divine manifestation in reflecting, in some part, the correlating aspects of godhead itself.
Many cultures believe that the gods themselves feel anger, joy, fear, jealously, insult, but also pleasure, happiness, etc. If God is "pleased" or "offended" it would indicate a remaining distance between the subject and the object in running ones self-awareness through the artifice of moral/intellectual constructs. This is another way of pointing out that the dichotomy between good & bad is an artifice defined only by the specific vehicles (the respective mind or body) ability to endure the through-put of energies and resulting organic decomposition of ones actions in ones environment.
Not many would recommend a meditation which irreparably damages the vehicle, but the simple truth is that existence in a carbon form is inescapably mortal, somewhat destructive and limited. All of our actions, including breathing and blood flow cause degeneration by throughput. An important theory in overcoming pre-formatted limitations of mind & morality is to bring oneself wholly into the moment without these fetters of dualistic and environmental conditioning forever filtering ones experience.
In some A.'.A.'. instruction, there are points where the student is advised to use pain as an effective deterrent to letting the mind or thoughts wander back to habitual patterns. It brings to mind the very real value of a spanking when dealing with an incourageble child. In this way, utilizing pain, organic injury (forget about lofty Siddhis) and self-interest just for this example, the vehicle cancels-out and renegotiates the neural causeways of the mind, body & spirit to allow for greater and greater spectrum of experience and the realization of truth. One could say that eating ice cream is bad for ones health if one isn't hungry or if one dosen't absolutely need the calories to stave off death, but then this devolves into baseless nihilism at its extreme and misses the the "divine" joy of the ice cream itself. If distraction, pleasure and the manifestation of needless powers are all evil, then so is ones very existence in the capacity to cause huge amounts of wastage and disorganization by the very act of living day-to-day as an otherwise detached center in the midst of this hypothetical all-positive singularity. We don't need to follow this trail too far to see that the ledge is itself artificially conceptual.
In Thelema we also find the transcendence of the illusion of the sacrifice of Self, better known as the paradigm of the suffering, Sacrificed Slave god upon the cross of elements, which is still a very valuable meditation. I am in agreement with the perspective that once that cross is hefted, the experience endured, the elements become compatriots and the scene shifts indubitably. The conditions and effects of time on matter are necessary to allow for our total sum experience. Truly, God(s) are in the material. Instead, we are cautioned to observe and overcome our inhibitions through courageous engagement, confounding our childhood preconditions and the malarkey of environmental programming in order to fully and spiritually allow the root self to seed, activate and rest in the moment.
"Know that the Cult of the Slave-Gods is a Device of those Black Brothers. All that stagnateth is thereof, and thence cometh not Stability, but Putrefaction. Endure not thou the static Standards either in Thought or in Action Resist not even the Change that is the Rottenness of Choronzon, but rather speed it, so that the elements may combine by Love under Will"
DE VIRTUTE CHIRURGICA.
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I must say this is one of the more interesting threads, very relevant nonrestrictive context and fundamental to any understanding of self-reflecting humanity. IMHO humanity is simply a by-product of "Consciousness" seeking to manifest on all planes; and we only find peace when we realize that the "Future" ultimately is as sure as the "Past" and that technological or some other form of "Singularity" is inevitable as the end point of human history as we know it; Throughout evolution "Consciousness" has striven to express itself more instantaneously and with less limitations on the physical plane, which invariably led to the development of first humanity, then the "silicon chip" ,then the "Internet" as a mirror of "collective consciousness", ever onwards in a systematic telescoping of the geometrical progression of anthropological and technological advancement. Infinity has been but a shadow amongst us! lurking then withdrawing!! The Infinite Will cannot but manifest!!! Its like dreaming, you lend different aspects of your psyche "independent consciousness" for the duration of the dream, they then appear autonomous, so "you" in the dream is incomplete in all its aspects relative to the Larger paradigm of waking reality, which is imminent. The more that reality filters into our dreams the closer we are to waking up! and the process of waking up itself is an infusion or acceleration of energy/information, which when sufficient to effect the dissolution of the different aspects, they will reformulate in the higher paradigm as a complete individual(if as yet insufficient the infusion of alien energy/information may create phenomenal effects). This is what I term "the supernova theory of awakening from slumber". In a sense you might conceive of "Human History" as the nightmare of "Gaia"{mother earth}, and Singularity the imminent concentration of energy required to instigate the "supernova effect". The question then for us is how to rationalize and deal with this. In the tradition of the Tao, to be conscious of, and go with the flow would be less disharmonious and painful than to consciously or unconsciously resist it, for whatever that's worth, though ultimately it may all still be vanity.
"As Below So Above"
"That which began with "Singularity" shall end with "Singularity"!"
I Am the reformulated SCAPEGOAT.
