Crowley's interpretation of ancient Egyptian religion?
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Heru, Her or Har-Bedhet (mistranslated from the stele as 'Hadit') is literally 'Horus of Baghdad', referring to an ancient temple of Horus in northern Egypt.
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@Fr. Vox Cor said
"Heru, Her or Har-Bedhet (mistranslated from the stele as 'Hadit') is literally 'Horus of Baghdad', referring to an ancient temple of Horus in northern Egypt."
No, not Baghdad, that's in Iraq!
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@Tamara_Tornad said
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@Fr. Vox Cor said
"Heru, Her or Har-Behdet (mistranslated from the stele as 'Hadit') is literally 'Horus of Baghdad', referring to an ancient temple of Horus in northern Egypt."No, not Baghdad, that's in Iraq!"
An easy conflation -
Behdet in Arabic became "Baghdad" corresponding to the same northern-most town in Egypt, sharing the same name with the modern Iraqi city. Behdet in Egyptian is the city of Edfu. One could more appropriately say "Horus of Edfu", but Edfu sounds nothing like Behdet.
Interestingly, the Arabic word for falcon is also hr, or "hor" (ala Ra-hoor), just as in Egyptian. I've read some sources which argue that Horus actually originated in Arabia.
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Interestingly, the Arabic word for falcon is also hr, or "hor" (ala Ra-hoor), just as in Egyptian. I've read some sources which argue that Horus actually originated in Arabia."
When you say hr is Arabic for falcon, are you talking about Egyptian Arabic, or Classical Arabic? Egyptian Arabic does have some words originating in Coptic and ancient Egyptian.
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@Tamara_Tornad said
"When you say hr is Arabic for falcon, are you talking about Egyptian Arabic, or Classical Arabic? Egyptian Arabic does have some words originating in Coptic and ancient Egyptian."
Weather the word "hr" can be located specifically in ancient Arabic as a etymological root is uncertain, as early various middle eastern dialects mix and transform fluidly and are far, far beyond my lexicon.
The term Horus itself may refer to the families or aristocracy of the Hurrians, which people emanated from various parts of the middle-east (Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Messopitamia, Syria -our phonetic link to Arabic rendering/translation Bahgdad for Bedhet) who moved into early Egypt possibly before the Dynastic periods and whom may have inculcated the idea of Horus. Many people make the connection between the historical Hurrians and the biblical Horites but it is always in speculation. The Hor-Shesu, or followers of Horus, may also refer to the original Hurrian invader-kings and the title of "Horus" stuck with all preceding Pharaohs.
The Hitties called the chief Hurrian city, Mitanni, Hurri. The designation "Hurrian" is certainly not Egyptian, from what I've read, but even the Egyptians called Mitanni "nhrn" which is strangely inclusive of the word "hr" or falcon. One look at the earliest Egyptian pantheons, and Horus isn't yet present, which indicates a later addition and which could suggest that Horus was indeed a foreign invader. The Egyptians themselves, in some mythology, still record the invasion of Egypt by Horus. Of course, all of this is a sort of speculative stew. Just found it all interesting in context.
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So, I guess the argument is whether or not we CARE what the original names were.
I mean... if the gods of religion come from spiritual experiences, and their names are given to express the heart of an idea...
Who cares what the original names were precisely unless you actually believe that the god exists. Personally, I take more of a Jungian perspective, and the really important aspect is what the "namer" is trying to communicate to those who have not had the experience.
Those who have had the experience don't seem to care so much about spellings and precise agreement with literal history. I don't think agreement with history is the standard of proof for the Thelemic pantheon, when Crowely himself warned people not to take much of what he said literally. I think he was much more interested in perpetuating the experience for people of TODAY than with agreement with history.
I'm not sure agreement with historical authority was really his thing in the first place. You know?
anyway... my two.
peace.
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I'm sorry, I live in a reality where we are held to empirical standards before we make statements like that.
I can NEVER accept your answer until I "put my fingers in the wholes of his hands..." if you know what I mean.
What proof do you have?
What else you got?
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Namaste.
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@Ave de Prata said
"Actually at some point in past the name of the city was changed from " Behedeti " to " Edfu ".
Horus of Behedeti or Horus of Edfu is the same God, but the old one is the correct name, since it is the original name, and it is how he is called in the Book of the Law ( Hadit )."
Thanks for the feedback.
Its well known that "Hadit" was a simply mistranslation and not a willful modification. I think we would be making too much of AC, as adept as he was, to expect him to read and translate hieroglyphs. It is also known that he had the stele translated for him, hence his being unaware of the mistake.
Behdet was a district, rendered as Throne or Crown which included as its chief city Edfu, as well as other townships. Also, Ive gleaned that Behdet and Edfu are respectively different words, not different names for Edfu changed over time. Unfortunately, wikipedia doesn't always follow the historical etymology very far back.
As for the value in tracing the etymology of these names & places, each to their own. Outside of a purely historical context, "Hadit", as has been mentioned is Egyptoid (love the turn) but not really Egyptian.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Of course... if it were Egyptian. I've long held that the deities from Liber L. aren't Egyptian at all. They're Egyptoid; but they're new articulations of Deity.There never was an Egyptian god named "Hadit;" but Hadit is a core deity of Thelema."
My friend, Steve Nichols, studies ancient Egyptian religion, and he commented:
"As you say, if you are honest & upfront right from the start [that Thelemic deities are not the same as the ancient Egyptian] then no confusion can arise. But I'm not absolutely sure Crowley didn't think of Horus pretty much as being the Egyptian deity ..... in his written descriptions there are clear Ancient Egyptian sources, and he travelled to real Egypt, not to "Egyptoia" ..... Nuit is definitely recognisable as Ancient Egyptian Nuit."
I thought his comment was interesting enough to post here...
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Of course 4,000-8,000 years from now after the English language has been lost and replaced by Modernspeak there will be all kinds of confusion after they discover our lost and forgotten writings. I'm sure that the arguments over how to pronounce such words as knife or honest will abound. I think the content of the argument is interesting but really what do we solve by changing the names in the BotL? Not only was Aiwass bringing us the names of Gods of the Eqinox but there are also codes to be interpreted by the numerical value as well. As we understand the significance it will become clear, right?
There are many passages in holy books worldwide that are spelled incorrectly or spelled wrong for a purpose. I know that in my own operations I have bastardized the pronunciation of certain names in order to give it a new significance. So have many people before me. Let's take Astaroth and use it as an example, when I do Goetic work I work with Astaroth as a seperate entity but I also understand the Christian bastardization of Astarte.
As for Crowley's use of the more ancient Egyptian language at times and the Greek bastardization at others, I think he was using what would be most recognized. If I were creating a Tarot deck that was going to change what most people were familiar with (the traditional decks like the Rider-Waite example) I would want to try and give them something to be familiar with. He does go to correct the pronunciation in The Book of Thoth if memory serves.