The Mother is the Daughter; and the Daughter is the Mother

__THE_HERMIT__

"What does this expression mean from a theoretical and practical perspective?"

From one Theoretical perspective, The Mother is the Galaxy, and the Daughter is DNA; both may be represented by "Spirals" refer to my poem "I am Mesocosmos"

Steven Cranmer

@Jim Eshelman said

"And, of course, the Mother is not only the source of the Daughter, but is the Daughter in her later, mature state."

As embodied, I'd hazard to guess, by the evolving character of Lola Daydream in The Wake World...

Scarecrow

Thank you for the input everyone - I wanted to post the general question before asking specifics... which are:

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From Liber LVIII:

I am a fallen creature. I wish to be redeemed.
This is the Christian conception.
I am Malkuth the fallen daughter. I wish to be set upon the throne of Binah my supernal mother.
This is the qabalistic equivalent.

This reminds me of a bit that Alan Watts said to a class about Buddhahood; paraphrasing: "You are all already Buddhas, you won't believe me when I tell you that, but you are. And all of this work is just to get you to realize that."

So in this case the daughter seems to be a normal viewpoint and the mother seems to be an "enlightened" viewpoint.

Thoughts?

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From Book of Thoth (pg 16,17):

"The simplest illustration is in Chemistry. If we take hydrogen
gas and chlorine gas, and pass an electric spark through them, an
explosion takes place, and hydrochloric acid is produced. Here we
have a positive substance, which may be called the Son of the marriage
of these elements, and is an advance into Matter. But also, in the ecstasy of the union, Light and Heat are disengaged; these phenomena
are not material in the same sense as the hydrochloric acid is
material; this product of the union is therefore of a spiritual nature,
and corresponds to the daughter."

I'm confused by this viewpoint in 2 ways. A. How, in this case, does IS the mother the daughter and B. How are Light and Heat not material phenomena?

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Jim I believe you started to address this question: Why isn't the Father the Son?

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Is it fair to say the Neshamah IS the Nephesh? Or the Neshmah is the grown up Nephesh? or the Neshamah is the non-local Nephesh?

Is this somewhat the key to how magick works; how we can program reality by programing ourselves? And if so, does this mean that the Vav in the equation is representational of THE MAGICK LINK?

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I'm trying to apply this theory to real world scenerios: 2 people have sex and a baby is born... in this scenerio who is who in the Tetragrammaton? And how does that show that the mother IS the daughter?

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Thanks again for any advice. It's intersting to take a concept like this and try to explain it to a scientist, a teacher, a judge, a janitor, and a child. I failed, which is why I'm reaching out to my brothers and sisters for help.

Jim Eshelman

@Scarecrow said

"So in this case the daughter seems to be a normal viewpoint and the mother seems to be an "enlightened" viewpoint."

In this example, the Daughter is the "unredeemed soul." She is "redeemed" by that which is symbolized by the Son impregnating her. It is this which turns her into a Mother.

"How are Light and Heat not material phenomena?"

He didn't say they aren't. He said, "these phenomena are not material in the same sense as the hydrochloric acid is material." We can always slide in under the bamboo by pointing out that to be material they must be matter - and these phenomena are energy, not matter. But I think the real point is simpler: They aren't the intended product of the working. They are side phenomena, spin-off, collateral.

"3. Jim I believe you started to address this question: Why isn't the Father the Son?"

I didn't say he isn't. It's just irrelevant to your original question.

"4. Is it fair to say the Neshamah IS the Nephesh?"

No no no no no no no. Definitely not fair.

They aren't the same because they operate under dramatically different laws of consciousness, with significantly different languages comprising categorically different language units.

The real question, though, is: Would this be useful?

Again, I answer No (allowing that there may be a situation where it IS useful). We have a more generic term that represents that which they together comprise: Whereas Nephesh is the instinctual unconscious (or subconsciousness) and Neshemah is the spiritual unconscious (or superconsciousness), the unmodified termed unconsciousness represents the two of them together. At the least, I see no reason to dillute the important distinctions between the two terms.

"Or the Neshmah is the grown up Nephesh? or the Neshamah is the non-local Nephesh?"

I wouldn't say either. Neshemah both preexists and postexists Nephesh (since Neshemah persists throughout the course of the spiritual being's experience, while Nephesh is bound to the biological unit of a particular body). Similarly, there are both individual and collective aspects of subconsciousness, so I wouldn't endorse the second view either.

"5. I'm trying to apply this theory to real world scenerios: 2 people have sex and a baby is born... in this scenerio who is who in the Tetragrammaton? And how does that show that the mother IS the daughter?"

You're probably finding this hard to answer because there are several simultaneous questions. The real answer is that all of the existing humans are the whole of YHVH. But, if you're going to have them take roles in a play, the male was a Son but is now a Father; the female was a Daughter and is now a Mother. And the child is a Son or a Daughter; or, in the magical sense, the child is the Son (regardless of sex), and the Daughter is represented by all of the collateral phenomena that simultaneously come into a being as a consequence of the child being born.

I don't think your example is a good example BTW of showing that the Daughter is the Mother. It's the wrong sort or example.

Scarecrow

Once again I appreciate the input.

As Jim put it, I think I'm trying to come up with an example to fit the YHVH formula that exemplifies the Mother/Daughter relationship and which is real-world enough for me to explain it to materialists.

Can you help with an example?

Also I believe that I might be thrown by the 2 different approaches to YHVH I'm seeing within the Tarot, and which Crowley even points out blatantly in the Book of Thoth for straw-heads like myself.

There is the schema where the Father and Mother produce the 3rd thing which is neither of them, the Son, and also the Daughter; ie, the Spiritual Ecstacy or "all of the collateral phenomena that simultaneously come into a being as a consequence of the child being born" (Jim) - I'm still trying to understand this... what is spiritual ecstacy (the light and heat in the chemical example)? Is this the subjective phenomenon as opposed to the objective Son phenomenon?

There is also the schema where the Father, Mother, and Son are "completely spiritual forms of pure energy; they can only manifest in sensible experience by impinging upon the senses, crystallising out in a fourth element which they call Earth" (BoT, pg 18).

This last schema seems to fit the Liber LVIII bit about the fallen daughter:

I am a fallen creature. I wish to be redeemed.
This is the Christian conception.
I am Malkuth the fallen daughter. I wish to be set upon the throne of Binah my supernal mother.
This is the qabalistic equivalent.

And also this seems to fit the idea Jim is presenting that the Daughter and Mother comprise the "unconscious"...

I guess what I'm getting at is that there seem to be 2 schema

where the Daughter is the end product of 3 other products
where the Son is the end product of 2 other products and the daughter is the non-intended, but simultaneously created collateral phenomena of producing the Son.

In both of these schemas (if you even agree with me on that part), does the Daughter = the Mother, and are there distinctions as to how?

Yet another side question:
If the Daughter is the Mother
And
The Father is the Son
is the Son the Daughter, and the Father the Mother which would seem to imply the Father is the Daughter too...

__THE_HERMIT__

@Jim Eshelman said

"Where to start?

As one represents Neshamah (superconsciousness) and the other Nephesh (subconsciousness), together they represent "the unconscious," i.e., the sum total of the tripartite psyche except for the ego-centered, self-conscious Ruach. (In other words, in a predominantly male-generated system, the female elements in aggregate represent "mystery" and "the unknown.")

And, of course, the Mother is not only the source of the Daughter, but is the Daughter in her later, mature state."

You know its funny Jim, but this ties in with my idea of "Cosmos" and "DNA"

For one if the "Cosmos" is analogous to the "super -conscious' this may explain why Astrology and Qabalah work!? In another sense we know its "OUT THERE" but few people are "conscious" of it in a practical way outside of mysticism.
DNA is our "Collective Memory" our "sub-conscious", or in other words the fundamental instructions we are carrying out obliviously. In the same way we know DNA is "IN HERE" but we don't act out our lives with that fact in much "conscious" consideration.

"(Mythically, the male is the transient, wandering figure; the female, from the point of her village, people, nation, etc., is the persistent reality, as is the land.)"

this is also applicable in the above context, consider the overwhelming ratio of X chromosomes as compared to Y. and the inability of Y chromosome to exist alone in a YY configuration.

"I wouldn't say either. Neshemah both preexists and postexists Nephesh (since Neshemah persists throughout the course of the spiritual being's experience, while Nephesh is bound to the biological unit of a particular body). Similarly, there are both individual and collective aspects of subconsciousness, so I wouldn't endorse the second view either."

as is this.

Funny how we can arrive at the same conclusions from two different perspectives :smile_l"/><!s:l)><!s:l)><img_src="{smilies_path}/smile_l.gif"_alt=":l)"title="smile_l"/><!s:l)><!s:l)><img_src="{smilies_path}/smile_l.gif"_alt=":l)"title="smile_l"/><!s:l)><!s:icraze:><img_src="{smilies_path}/eyecrazy.gif"_alt=":icraze:"_title="eyes_crazy:

the atlas itch

This seems to be the appropriate thread for the following question:

What does it mean for the Daughter, redeemed by the Son, and assuming the throne of the Mother, to "awaken the Eld of the All-Father" and entice him to the bed?

I believe the sense of Eld in the above is age/epoch/aeon.

Does the Daughter revive the All-Father by the Son assuming the All-Father's place in a sort of aeonic succession? Or does the ambitious Daughter cause the old age/feebleness of the All-Father to become manifest? What is the meaning of this phrase with regards to Adjustment?

Jim Eshelman

@he atlas itch said

"What does it mean for the Daughter, redeemed by the Son, and assuming the throne of the Mother, to "awaken the Eld of the All-Father" and entice him to the bed?

I believe the sense of Eld in the above is age/epoch/aeon. "

No, the sense here is, "the old times... like in the old days." It means that she makes the old fart feel like a young man again, wakes him up, gives him a hard-on, points his spear upright, etc.

This is a piece of symbolism that, well, works better as symbolism than when explained, but primarily means this: This process brings the relationship of Yod and Heh-final to the stage where, Assiah being the "World of Action," the Will is fully manifest in action. It is the conforming of the field of manifestation to be the perfect receptacle of and visible expression of the otherwise invisible Will.

the atlas itch

Thanks for that explanation.

There is something very curious going on here. Normally the male is the active principle that acts upon and impregnates the passive female, but here the female is the active principle, indicated by the Daughter assuming the throne of the Mother and reviving the Will of the All-Father. The arousal of the All-Father is coming from the will of the Daughter turned Mother.

If the Tetragrammaton corresponds to the Four Worlds and to four sephiroths (Chokmah - Yod, Binah - Heh, Tiphareth - Vav and Malkuth - Heh), how is the **movement **of the Daughter assuming the throne of the Mother to be understood within this static hierarchy? What happened to the Son and previous Mother and what follows after the union of the All-Father and Daughter-turned-Mother? Why did the All-Father lose interest in the former Mother?

Jim Eshelman

@he atlas itch said

"...how is the **movement **of the Daughter assuming the throne of the Mother to be understood within this static hierarchy?"

What ever gave you the idea that this is a static formula? YHVH is probably the most affirmatively dynamic formula in classic Qabalah.

These are all shifts of consciousness. The Son placing the Daughter on the throne of the Mother is the tale of the HGA awakening the sensory and instinctual soul to Neshamah.

"What happened to the Son and previous Mother and what follows after the union of the All-Father and Daughter-turned-Mother? Why did the All-Father lose interest in the former Mother?"

The Son was the agent in this phase of the formula. Nothing happened to the Mother, because the Daughter became the Mother. What follows is... well, many things, including the recurrence of the formula where the Daughter (now the Mother) and the Father beget a new Son etc. etc.

the atlas itch

I expressed myself badly. IHVH shows a sequence of creation and I was trying to understand the movement of the Daughter within that context.