Is there any specific mention of HGA in Liber L?
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No there isn't, but then Crowley made it clear that this is a ridiculous term and refers to a stage found in many mystical systems under other names. That so many Thelemites take it literally is a shame.
In ecstatic Cabala this stage is the attainment of the divine twin. In Druidry (Brythonic style) it is the attainment of the Awen.
And it is just a stage. -
IIRC, the only direct reference to K & C of HGA (as such) in the Class A texts appears in Liber LXV, V:41
And again I was caught up into the presence of my Lord Adonai, and the knowledge and Conversation of the Holy One, the Angel that Guardeth me.
729
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@sethur said
"No there isn't, but then Crowley made it clear that this is a ridiculous term and refers to a stage found in many mystical systems under other names. That so many Thelemites take it literally is a shame.
In ecstatic Cabala this stage is the attainment of the divine twin. In Druidry (Brythonic style) it is the attainment of the Awen.
And it is just a stage."Agree with first paragraph. Disagree with second paragraph (your correspondences).
K&C of HGA by name is not referenced in Holy Books. The attainment for what K&C of HGA is a particular name is referenced over 666 times in 56 different places
IAO131
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By the way (it always irks people when I do this, but here goes)...
K&C of the HGA isn't a Thelemic idea.
It isn't a non-Thelemic idea. It just isn't a Thelemic idea per se.
It was a long-prexisting term that Crowley adopted in preparing teachings for the A.'.A.'. system.
Now, the A.'.A.'. and Thelema also shouldn't be confused. One can be a Thelemite without ever going near the A.'.A.'.; and the A.'.A.'. in its broader sense (and even in some of its narrow ones) doesn't require you be a Thelemite.
People often lump them together under the Mr. Crowley banner and don't distinguish what he's actually talking about at any one particular point in time.
Now, in my life it's hard for me to separate the two... but that also doesn't mean that it's that ay inherently or in general.
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It seems to me that in Liber AL, The HGA is mentioned quite frequently, as the entire Chapter 2 deals with the description and relationship of the individual (Crowley) with his HGA (Hadit).
The Worship of Hoor-Paar-Kraat as a confused HGA experinece as the Duality of self-Hadit is not bridged this then a psychotic rather than a full mystical state of relation.
The drinking wine and strange drugs, that release inhibitions and allow oneself (HGA) to act without repression, ie without folly against self.
The 3 chapters would seem to indicate 1) the one self in relation to the infinite world, 2) the self turned into itself, the mis-worship of Hadit, or the K@C state of HGA. and then 3) the full unity of the Self and the Self, The HGA is no longer in communication as one becomes the HGA the HGA becomes the Self. This now Self that in outward directed self unified with innar directed self, is Heru-Ra-Ha. which expands both on the inner and outer planes.
HGA is merely a term Crowley stole from Abaramelin to express the Tiphereth state where the the two motions of the Self become aware of each other and must work out an integration. Rose and Cross, 5=6 etc.
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@Froclown said
"It seems to me that in Liber AL, The HGA is mentioned quite frequently, as the entire Chapter 2 deals with the description and relationship of the individual (Crowley) with his HGA (Hadit)."
No more than the entire Chapter 1 deals wit hthe description and relationship of the indivual with the HGA (Nuit), or Chapter 3 with etc. HGA (Ra-Hoor-Khuit).
And then, of course, there is Abrahadabra...
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@Jim Eshelman said
"By the way (it always irks people when I do this, but here goes)...
K&C of the HGA isn't a Thelemic idea.
It isn't a non-Thelemic idea. It just isn't a Thelemic idea per se.
It was a long-prexisting term that Crowley adopted in preparing teachings for the A.'.A.'. system.
Now, the A.'.A.'. and Thelema also shouldn't be confused. One can be a Thelemite without ever going near the A.'.A.'.; and the A.'.A.'. in its broader sense (and even in some of its narrow ones) doesn't require you be a Thelemite.
People often lump them together under the Mr. Crowley banner and don't distinguish what he's actually talking about at any one particular point in time.
Now, in my life it's hard for me to separate the two... but that also doesn't mean that it's that ay inherently or in general."
This really helps a lot Jim.
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Do what thou wilt...,
At this point it seems fair to declare where I stand, so that all of my threads/posts may be understood from that perspective; Basically I accept "the Book of the Law" but I have less certainty about some or all of Crowley's specific methodologies, not that I think these may be necessarily ineffective, but may not particularly resonate with my peculiarly post-modern tastes. As of now I think my preferred paradigm is some form of "Chaos Magick" not necessarily exactly as presented by Peter Carroll, in Liber Null/Liber Kaos, but not dissimilar either. I am not formally associated with any organizations or clandestine orders at this time, although I could consider myself an "unknown satellite" to one or more orders knowingly or unknowingly, through a strong emotional affinity and/or world-view consensus, but basically I am an Individual/Dark Theoretician and Practitioner, and mainly practice unceremonious "Magick" as at this juncture. I am particularly conflicted on this concept of HGA; Carroll outright denies this phenomenon as authentic, together with the "dissolution of the Ego" as a psychically-engineered delusion, which ultimately has the reverse effect of expanding the Ego to "Cosmic proportions" albeit with a superficial humility. As for me I am undecided about the particulars of any or all of these phenomena. Maybe something here, someday, will give me some more clarity on these issues.
Life, Prosperity, Health.
...Love under Will,
Frater I-Ness
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@Frater I-Ness said
"I am particularly conflicted on this concept of HGA; Carroll outright denies this phenomenon as authentic, together with the "dissolution of the Ego" as a psychically-engineered delusion, which ultimately has the reverse effect of expanding the Ego to "Cosmic proportions" albeit with a superficial humility."
When you say "this" concept, could you please clarify? I'm unclear about how you're picturing the experience.
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@Frater I-Ness said
"I am particularly conflicted on this concept of HGA; Carroll outright denies this phenomenon as authentic... I am undecided about the particulars of any or all of these phenomena."
Respectfully and by analogy:
I find many who embrace atheism, touting, "There is no God," actually mean, "There is no God of the particular kind I have in mind at the moment, which I learned about from the yammering idiots who raised me."
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@Frater_AVV said
"
@Frater I-Ness said
"I am particularly conflicted on this concept of HGA; Carroll outright denies this phenomenon as authentic, together with the "dissolution of the Ego" as a psychically-engineered delusion, which ultimately has the reverse effect of expanding the Ego to "Cosmic proportions" albeit with a superficial humility."When you say "this" concept, could you please clarify? I'm unclear about how you're picturing the experience."
That is my point Frater, I am unsure how to picture it.. or conversely I am not completely satisfied with the definition of the phenomena as it is generally presented, or sure whether an individual's true inherent genius is unique and/or can be anthropomorphized? that is, if there is ultimately such a thing at all ?? This conflict is rooted in my present limitations at apprehending the nature of Reality itself.
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you say "I am unsure"
Well who or what exactly is "I".When you find that out, then you are in a position to face the HGA.
the "I" is like the moon that catches the light of the HGA, as the moon has many phases, so too does the "I" take many elusive forms.
The awareness of HGA that comes from the SENSES appears GLORIOUS, but is merely an illusion of the DEVIL.
The HGA is also approachable via the BACK OF THE HEAD with blind faith appears as VICTORY, but is only the actions of the FISH stirring the emotions.
These are both inadequate, but a PHALLIC formula can transcend both and discern a FOUNDATION which once secured can prove just the PROP one needs to reach directly bask in the SOLAR.
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Jim Eshelman wrote:
"Respectfully and by analogy:
I find many who embrace atheism, touting, "There is no God," actually mean, "There is no God of the particular kind I have in mind at the moment, which I learned about from the yammering idiots who raised me.""
Thanks, Jim. I've been trying to find the right words for this idea and you nailed it, much to the dismay of the person I relayed it to.
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@Froclown said
"you say "I am unsure"
Well who or what exactly is "I".When you find that out, then you are in a position to face the HGA.
the "I" is like the moon that catches the light of the HGA, as the moon has many phases, so too does the "I" take many elusive forms.
The awareness of HGA that comes from the SENSES appears GLORIOUS, but is merely an illusion of the DEVIL.
The HGA is also approachable via the BACK OF THE HEAD with blind faith appears as VICTORY, but is only the actions of the FISH stirring the emotions.
These are both inadequate, but a PHALLIC formula can transcend both and discern a FOUNDATION which once secured can prove just the PROP one needs to reach directly bask in the SOLAR."
"I" is a word that is used in a variety of ways, largely due to the inherent crudeness of the English language, here "I" use it colloquially; if you notice both my "location" and my "handle" refer to the concept of "I-ness" which to me at this time is simply "self/point-referential consciousness" in a general sense, "Consciousness" itself may be all pervading, and not necessarily locally generated. Individuality may be nothing more than a delusion of the Ego; the individual "I" separate from "Hadit" Himself, may simply be the perspective from each point of perception which collectively may be the Super-Consciousness of "I-ness". The rest of your post is written in the technical terms/metaphors of a particular paradigm and does not address fundamental ontological questions. This is not to say one might not experience what is perceived as K&C of HGA, if one follows the prescribed procedures, but from this perspective there is still a question mark"?" over what might really be going on??
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no one ever knows what it "is really going on" because knowledge is a matter of the relation between symbols, words, numbers, ideas, and Truth or Reality is a matter of direct experience without the use of language and symbols.
At best symbols can direct us to act in a way that increases the chances of actually experiencing the event. But the word unicorn, the thought of a unicorn nor even the perception of the Unicorn in the Unicorn itself.
The same with the HGA, You bust Be it to know it, and once you are what you sought to know, then knowledge is superfluous.