Animal Sacrifice.
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you fail to understand that sympathy for livestock is just not something that happens with agrarian era people. this silly notion that I should fee sentimental for an animal I slay is absurd, why should I see any beast as anything other than a straw dog, a thing for my use and my whims, as it pleases me, rather than worry about how it feels as it dies, or even more absurd, that maybe I make it's family sad.
I am not a brid or a cow, so the death of the beast, is merely the use of a thing, no different than to drink a glass of water. Do you feel empathy for the poor class of water, that is all used up now? no of course not. Nor does the old woman who rings a turkey's neck give a single thought to how the bird feels or even that the bird is a living being at all. It is just food, it is a thing am anle to use my power to conquer and to eat.
The animal is a gift to the spirit, it is not killed to make the magician feel obligated no to have wasted a "precious life" because life is not prescious nothing is sacred, nothing precious it's all COLD hard FACT, Emotions are not reality!!! The whole idea is spirits like dead animals, so to Repay the spirit I offer a gift.
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In religions where animal sacrifice is the norm, it's also the norm to slaughter your own animals for food. So sacrificing an animal would not have been anything out of the ordinary.
It's us sheltered city folk who buy our meat already cut and wrapped in neat packages that are shocked by animal sacrifice.
But still, we humans experience empathy, and even someone who slaughters animals on a regular basis may feel emotions doing this. So making a sacrifice brings up emotions and energy.
I became anemic on a vegetarian diet, and started eating meat again several years ago. I try to stick with free-range meat as much as possible. I think it would be a good experience for me to slaughter my own meat. I haven't done that yet. I know it would be hard for me, being a city grrrrl who buys her meat in packages.
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@Tornado93 said
"In religions where animal sacrifice is the norm, it's also the norm to slaughter your own animals for food. So sacrificing an animal would not have been anything out of the ordinary.
It's us sheltered city folk who buy our meat already cut and wrapped in neat packages that are shocked by animal sacrifice.
But still, we humans experience empathy, and even someone who slaughters animals on a regular basis may feel emotions doing this. So making a sacrifice brings up emotions and energy.
I became anemic on a vegetarian diet, and started eating meat again several years ago. I try to stick with free-range meat as much as possible. I think it would be a good experience for me to slaughter my own meat. I haven't done that yet. I know it would be hard for me, being a city grrrrl who buys her meat in packages."Hi Tornado93. I agree that it would be hard for most of us to do that. But aren't these two different issues? Basically, I see animal sacrifice as something from our past, which most religions have evolved past. I know that it goes on in certain belief systems. As ceremonial magicians, don't we have other, better options?And oh- if I had to kill my own meat I know I'd be eating alot more tofu.
Perephone -
@Persephone said
"Hi Tornado93. I agree that it would be hard for most of us to do that.
But aren't these two different issues? Basically, I see animal sacrifice as something from our past, which most religions have evolved past."I, on the other hand, would hope that as long as we're killing animals, that animal sacrifice would be something much more present in our future.
Part of the error through this thread has been the assumption that "animal sacrifice" means killing more animals than would have been killed otherwise. But "sacrifice" simply means "to make sacred." The difference between "animal sacrifice" and "killing animals" is that, in the former case, the killing is a mindful, respectful action of sanctification.
"As ceremonial magicians, don't we have other, better options?"
Yes. There are far more advantageous options (even if, to the cynic, we only mention that they are much less mess!). Crowley correctly remarked that the greatest magicians use their own blood instead of that of another; and, in this, he really intended something that expects too much of many young magicians: i.e., that they be able to have and maintain an intimate personal relationship.
BTW, war is as much "animal sacrifice" as is anything else; and triggering large scale mass-mind lurches into the future commonly triggers this mass shedding of blood. It isn't a surprise to me that the work of a Magus can unleash this sort of stabilization, since it compelling confronts mass-mind with changes against which the status quo is stubbornly entrenched.
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The ancient Egyptians presented animal sacrifices, as well as other foods to the cult statue of the Gods in their temples. After the food was ritually presented, it would be taken away and divided among the priests for them to eat. The idea was that the God would partake of the spiritual essence of the food, and the priests would partake of the blessed material food.
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yes, the old bring your meat to the priests routine. Atleast the Egyptian priests were honest enough to let the people know they were taking the meat. The Jews did not even seem to realize the Priests had built a pyramid scheme, where they got free meat with out having to labor in the fields. First born of ever womb was taken to the temple on passover, I can just imagine the mess and smell than made, not to mention the stores of meat. (of course maybe the priests shared in times of famine, but I doubt it)
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Tornado,
I, also, became ill on a vegetarian diet, and now eat meat.
Some people just aren't made to digest only vegetables, I guess. Kind of makes me think I am not sattvic enough. But, I'm not. More Asura than Deva.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761582202/devas_and_asuras.html
For definition of asura and deva.
chrys333 -
@Chris Hanlon said
"Tornado,
I, also, became ill on a vegetarian diet, and now eat meat.
Some people just aren't made to digest only vegetables, I guess. Kind of makes me think I am not sattvic enough. But, I'm not. More Asura than Deva.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333"I was just the opposite. Before I went vegan I weighed a total of 350 lb. at a height of 5'11" & had asthma so bad I couldn't even go outside or even walk for extended periods of time without having an attack. Since I have removed all animal products from my diet I have cut down considerable on the amount of medication I require & am well within the range of a healthy bmi. I get plenty of protien from mushrooms, beans, & nuts & take supplements for the nutrients I am missing such as B vitamins.
...I do not, though, think my dietary lifestyle is something from which everyone would benefit. Diet is something with which one should experiment to find what is best for their body.
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I just came across this article on goat sacrifice:
Why I Defend Goat Sacrifice
Freedom of religion doesn’t mean much if it protects only those beliefs that the government, or the general populace, decides it likes. -
@Tornado93 said
"In religions where animal sacrifice is the norm, it's also the norm to slaughter your own animals for food. So sacrificing an animal would not have been anything out of the ordinary.
It's us sheltered city folk who buy our meat already cut and wrapped in neat packages that are shocked by animal sacrifice.
But still, we humans experience empathy, and even someone who slaughters animals on a regular basis may feel emotions doing this. So making a sacrifice brings up emotions and energy.
I became anemic on a vegetarian diet, and started eating meat again several years ago. I try to stick with free-range meat as much as possible. I think it would be a good experience for me to slaughter my own meat. I haven't done that yet. I know it would be hard for me, being a city grrrrl who buys her meat in packages."
I agree with you on this point.
I would also add for those who think meat is bad better ivestigate why they think it is bad. It has to do with the omega 3 to omega 6 ratio of fatty acids that are critical to cellular life. This ratio is totally inverted from where it was 100 years ago, do to agri bussiness. Free range AND grass fed AND organic (no pesticides, herbicides, inoculations and hormones). For more on this, watch, "Future of Food" free on hulu.com.
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This is a "Persistence Hunt" of a Male Kudu, by tribesman of the San on the Kalahari Desert of Africa. Thoroughly blew my mind! This.....this is hunting. An almost transcendental means of acquiring food. The hunter performs a ritual, giving thanks to the animal at the end.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"BTW, war is as much "animal sacrifice" as is anything else; and triggering large scale mass-mind lurches into the future commonly triggers this mass shedding of blood."
Is War a Ritual Human Sacrifice?
www.paranoiamagazine.com/warritual.html -
Anyone who has read Illuminatus! or seen part 3 of Urotsukidoji should have realized that war is essentially human sacrifice. And is certainly an act of magick, thousands of lives dedicated and consecrated to the single ends of WILL of the nation. Then to be made sacred of immortal in memorials and history text books. The Life's blood of countless young men, on both sides, spilled into the cup of Babalon, in so called "self sacrifice, for God and country". War is the highest expression of the old aeon formula. The Nazi's perfected the art, sacrificing others for an end's that in not their own that is. Now in this new aeon, we strive in work a formula where the sacrifice is made for ones own ends, not made in the name of an alien WILL.
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I read a book about early warfare in ancient Greece (sorry don't remember the title, it was a while ago). The earliest wars were between city-states over small pieces of territory. The wars were held a certain time of year, and highly ritualized. Musicians stood on the side played a march while the fighting took place. Men did get killed, but as soon as it was clear which side was winning, it would stop. The losing side would flee, and it was considered dishonorable for the winners to pursue them.
Other tribal people have wars where no one gets killed. Such as "counting coup" among some native American tribes.
But then even prehistory also shows evidence of horrible cases of mass murder and genocide.
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nonfatal contests are fine when we want to see who gets to wear a hat or hold a trophy.
However when their is one well that will supply 50 people and 200 people want to drink from it, the only solution is violent. If a law of honor or decree of law is made that this 50 wins the well, no matter how high valued the other 150 people may want to be, when the thirst comes, they will kill their brothers for a quenching sip of blood.
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@Tornado93 said
"I read a book about early warfare in ancient Greece (sorry don't remember the title, it was a while ago). The earliest wars were between city-states over small pieces of territory. The wars were held a certain time of year, and highly ritualized. Musicians stood on the side played a march while the fighting took place. Men did get killed, but as soon as it was clear which side was winning, it would stop. The losing side would flee, and it was considered dishonorable for the winners to pursue them.
Other tribal people have wars where no one gets killed. Such as "counting coup" among some native American tribes.
But then even prehistory also shows evidence of horrible cases of mass murder and genocide."
this is true.... we live in a brutal and savage culture; and it's one thing that bothers me about anyone who refers to Nativist culture as "primitive" or "savage". Clearly, it is the other way around.
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Well to try to pull this back on topic, I would respect animal sacrifice if I was invited to a tradition where this was the norm; perhaps if I went to Haitian Voudou ceremony and they were sacrificing a chicken or goat.
I would not go out of my way to sacrifice an animal on my own, for a ritual.
Though, as I said, I do think it would be a good idea for me to slaughter my own food sometime; which I have never done. And I'm sure I would make a ritual out of it.
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@nderabloodredsky said
"this is true.... we live in a brutal and savage culture; and it's one thing that bothers me about anyone who refers to Nativist culture as "primitive" or "savage". Clearly, it is the other way around."
BTW, these words not be offensive if we look closely at them and see what they actually mean. "Primitive" (like "primal") just means "first," i.e., early, original, etc. "Savage" simply means "from the forests." All of the other meanings are secondary ideas we've attached to "earlier civilizations living in the forest."
OTOH I suspect your understabanble umbrage is about what someone actually meant by the words - which was probably somewhat pejorative.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"this is true.... we live in a brutal and savage culture; and it's one thing that bothers me about anyone who refers to Nativist culture as "primitive" or "savage". Clearly, it is the other way around."BTW, these words not be offensive if we look closely at them and see what they actually mean. "Primitive" (like "primal") just means "first," i.e., early, original, etc. "Savage" simply means "from the forests." All of the other meanings are secondary ideas we've attached to "earlier civilizations living in the forest."
OTOH I suspect your understabanble umbrage is about what someone actually meant by the words - which was probably somewhat pejorative."
Yes, it's that and more. Same thing with the term "pagan", meaning country folk literally, but to others something nefarious at best.
You see, it's personal with me. I identify with the world tribes that have been slaughtered, bribed, and what's left, tamed and used for nefarious ends, to continue the nefarious plans of those who would enslave the entire planet!
(note: I am aware I used nefarious 3x: [Latin nefārius, from nefās, crime, transgression : ne-, not; see ne in Indo-European roots + fās, divine law; see dhē- in Indo-European roots.] they are breaking divine law!)